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Old 02-03-2004, 07:28 AM   #1
Paula Lydon
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keiko

~~Meaning? ~~

~~Paula~~
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Old 02-03-2004, 07:53 AM   #2
Thalib
 
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Tracing the old?

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 02-03-2004, 08:03 AM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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To reflect deeply upon the past...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-03-2004, 09:15 AM   #4
ze'ev erlich
 
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The Kanji and the original meaning of the word "keiko" had deep and spiritual meaning.

However in everyday Japanese the word simply means: "practice; training".

Ze'ev.

Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
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Old 02-03-2004, 04:42 PM   #5
Paula Lydon
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~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?

Thanks!

~~Paula~~
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Old 02-03-2004, 04:58 PM   #6
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?
Probably the same way (as someone suggested on these boards recently) that practicing "Martial" arts doesn't imply worship of Mars.

If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 02-03-2004, 05:34 PM   #7
Peter Goldsbury
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Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.
Hello Don,

The place you are thinking of is probably Chapter 4 ("The Method") in the "Classical Budo" volume, except that Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once. Basically, training is what you do until you attain the heights of the DOU level, after which it becomes practice.

It is a nice, romantic, chapter, similar in tone to what aikido teachers sometimes adopt over a beer after keiko/renshu, when they wax lyrical and spice the discourse with gnomic quotes from M Ueshiba. I have heard the Draeger chapter expounded a number of times so far, so please pardon my laid back tone.

The problem is that Draeger is of no value for distinguishing between 'keiko' and 'renshu'. Both terms can apply equally to all stages of the process he describes.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-03-2004, 07:28 PM   #8
Thalib
 
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A shihan from Aikikai honbu dojo on his visit to Indonesia, during practice before yudansha test, was quite angry looking how most of us(Indonesians) were training/practice. I'm not going to go into the details.

One thing that he said made me think, "Everytime you go into the dojo to train... no it's not training... practice... no it's not practice either... it is keiko... it is tracing the old..."

P.S.: 3 periods (...) symbolizes pause...

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 02-04-2004, 02:18 AM   #9
Peter Goldsbury
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Here is some relevant information concerning ekeikof, erenshuf and ekenshuf from the eNihon Kokugo Daijitenf. In all cases the meanings are given, together with the earliest references given in the dictionary. I have added a few notes and comments, but I apologize that time commitments have prevented an English translation. I leave that to the Japanese experts in this forum.

Keiko

ŒmŒÃ

1. ŒÃŽ--‚ðl‚¦‚āA•¨Ž--‚Ì‚©‚‚Ă ‚Á‚½‚ ‚è•û‚Æ‚±‚ê‚©‚ç‚ ‚é‚ׂ«Žp‚Ƃ𐳊m‚É'm‚邱‚ƁB

ŽO‘ãŠi|\ŽµEOm\ŽO"Ni822jŽOŒŽ"ñ\˜Z"úE‘¾­Š¯•„

2. ‘‚ð"ǂñ‚ÅŠw--₷‚邱‚ƁB‚Ü‚½AŠw‚ñ‚¾‚Æ‚±‚ë‚𕜏K‚·‚邱‚ƁBŠw--âBŠwKB

ŽO‘ãŠi|ˆêEOmŠi˜i830j

3. C‹ÆB—ûKB"Á‚É•pAŒ|"\‚Ȃǂɂ‚¢‚Ä‚¢‚¤‚±‚Æ‚ª‘½‚¢B

•½Ž¡i1220 ‚©jãEM—ŠM¼•s‰õ‚ÌŽ--

4. Cs‚ÌŒ÷‚ðÏ‚ñ‚ŁAŠwŽ¯‚âË"\‚ª‚·‚®‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚é‚ƍ‚‚­•]‰¿‚³‚ê‚邱‚ƁB

‰Ô‰€"Vc›‚‹L|Œ³‰ž"ñ"Ni1320j‹ãŒŽ"ñ"ú

5. "Á‚ɁA‹ê•×—サ‚ČÎ--‚ɂ‚­‚Æ‚¢‚¤ˆÓ‚ð‹­‚ß‚Ä‚¢‚¤B

--¼ŒŽ‹L|³Œ³Œ³"Ni1207j\ˆêŒŽ"ª"ú

Note: The connection with ancient learning, probably Chinese learning & the rote learning of ancient texts, is quite strong and the earliest reference to keiko as training in the martial arts is for 1220, which is, quite appropriately, in the middle of the Kamakura bakufu.

Renshu

—ûK

Šw--â‚â‹ZŒ|‚È‚Ç‚ðŒJ‚è•Ô‚µŠwK‚·‚邱‚ƁB‚Ü‚½Aˆê'è‚̍ì‹Æ‚ð"½•œ‚µ‚āA‚»‚Ì‹Zp‚ðg‚É ‚‚¯‚邱‚ƁB

--¾t‰—ˆimid-11Cj

Note: The reference here to internalization by repetition is noteworthy, whether in scholarship or the arts.

Kenshu

Œ¤C

Šw--â‚â‹ZŒ|‚È‚Ç‚ðA‚Ý‚ª‚«‚¨‚³‚߂邱‚ƁB‚Ü‚½A‚ ‚éEˆæ‚ŁAE‹Æã•K—v‚È'mŽ¯‚â‹Z"\‚𠍂‚ß‚éEˆõ‚ðˆê'èŠúŠÔ‹³ˆç‚·‚邱‚Æ‚â‚»‚Ì‚½‚ߍuK‚Æ‚¢‚¤B

•‚¢Šá‚Æ'ƒF‚Ì--ځi1914j

Note: This is quite different from the other two and has the connotation of honing a skill or undertaking special training for a particular purpose.

Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 02-04-2004 at 02:25 AM.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-04-2004, 01:22 PM   #10
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once.
You're right. I obviously interpolated the Jpn terms.

Thanks for the detailed post on the two terms.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-25-2004, 03:30 PM   #11
Tatiana
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Re: keiko

It depends on the kanji. It can be a girl's name (in fact, before I found this forum, That was the only way I knew it... hehe)

It is kind of like training, but there is a more spiritual connotation (I think). For regular sports, like baseball, you would say renshu. It could also mean practise, or to reflect deeply on the past...

ŒmŒÃ KEIKO. This is a compound word composed of
(1) Œm The ‘厚Œ¹ Daijigen gives 'kanga(eru)' and 'todo(meru)' as readings for this word. There are several basic meanings: to think or dispute, to stop, and to bow low. The Chinese-derived reading (from ji / qi) is KEI. This is combined with:
(2) ŒÃ furu(i), inishie, meaning old or ancient times. The Chinese-derived reading (from gu) is KO and the combination gives KEI-KO, which means to consider or contemplate ancient matters and by transference, to pursue scholarship, academic learning, or other training.
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Old 08-25-2004, 03:39 PM   #12
saltlakeaiki
 
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Re: keiko

Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat

If it wasn't for the goat, you couldn't get in here for propaganda!
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Old 08-27-2004, 12:55 AM   #13
akiy
 
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Re: keiko

Hi David,
Quote:
David Iannucci wrote:
Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat
It looks like Tatiana was merely quoting other people on the AikiWeb Forums:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...98&postcount=3
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...00&postcount=6

Tatiana, please do follow basic netiquette and let us know when you're quoting others... Thanks.

-- Jun

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Old 08-27-2004, 07:17 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: keiko

I like that phrase "to trace the old"...seems to convey a little something extra. Thanks all for the contributions.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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