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Old 08-14-2004, 05:02 PM   #1
Dave603
Dojo: Aikido Of Cincinnati
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17
United_States
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Automatic External Defibrillators

Does anybody use AEDs in their dojo? Has anybody considered them and decided against it? For what reason(s)? (other than money) If you have an AED, did you purchase it outright with dojo funds, get a grant, a gift? Just wondering what others might be doing...
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Old 08-15-2004, 07:57 PM   #2
Dave603
Dojo: Aikido Of Cincinnati
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17
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Re: Automatic External Defibrillators

Given the lack of responses, I'm guessing no one has an AED at their dojo. So what sort of first aid supplies and equipment do you keep on hand? Do you conduct regular forst aid and/or CPR training for instructors?
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Old 08-16-2004, 09:52 AM   #3
JasonB
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 28
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Re: Automatic External Defibrillators

Do you mean...like...for atemi?

If you're looking for training weapons you might want to start with wooden tanto or something of that nature.
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Old 08-16-2004, 10:49 AM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
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Re: Automatic External Defibrillators

Re the AED: I've only ever heard anecdotally of two on the mat heart attacks; one was successfully cpr-d (and returned to teaching eventually) and I don't remember the outcome on the second. Not sure it is a cost-effective item given the rarity of the problem.
FIrst aid kits should focus on immediate containment of blood and bloodborn pathogens (disposable gloves, bleach, dressings, and bags for disposal) and immediate treatment of soft tissue injury (cold packs and ace wraps).
Most dojo in USA don't have any formal cpr or first aid training for instructors. I have a written protocol that is available for printing and posting
http://www.aikiweb.com/misc/rosen3.html
It would be nice for dojos to contact local providers to come in and do first aid/cpr training for dojo members annually.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-16-2004, 02:32 PM   #5
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
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Re: Automatic External Defibrillators

The Doshinkan here in Phila. used to have the Red Cross come in and give CPR training every year...it was required at that time for instructors to take it. I don't know if the training is still offered at the dojo every year, but I liked it and made a point to attend.

In terms of the AEDs, I don't know enough about them to really say anything...I know we have them in our workplace...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-16-2004, 03:15 PM   #6
Michael Young
 
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Dojo: Alamo City Aikido
Location: San Antonio, TX
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 133
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Talking Re: Automatic External Defibrillators

I am a professional firefighter for the city of San Antonio. As most of what firefighters do these days is act primarily as first responders for ems calls, we are trained in emergency medicine. I have used an AED (we carry one on the fire truck)on many occasions throughout my career. I know there is a lot of support for the devices out there, as they are easy to use, and do have a somewhat proven track record of success. I say somewhat because AED's will only be useful for certain types of cardiac emergencies, they only shock certain arythmias of the heart, and never asytole (no heartbeat). In have been a firefighter for 12 years, and in the multitude of cardiac arrest calls I have made (probably in the range of at least 100), I would say that the AED has defibrillated far less than half of those. Most of the time it recommends no shock be delivered and we simply continue CPR until an EMS unit with more advanced life support equipment gets on scene. My point in all of this is that you would most likely be throwing away a lot of money purchasing a piece of equipment that you will probably never use, and if you are like most Aikido dojos, you are in a heavily populated area with advanced emergency medical care just minutes away...Now obviously if you could get one for free, through some kind of community grant program etc. then you shouldn't turn your nose up at it.
What I do highly recomend is everyone at the dojo (not just the instructors) take a class in first aid and CPR. A few years ago, I had an instructor come in and give a class to my old dojo's group, and the response was great. In this day and age, first aid courses are readily available and even taught in most public school systems, so there is no excuse for not having some exposure to basic CPR. Contact your local Red Cross, American Heart Association, or (my personal favorite )your local fire department. You will find that the classes are very affordable, and usually they will even come to your dojo to teach them if you have enough people sign up.
Here is what we have in our first aid kit at the dojo:
rubber gloves
bandages and gauze
cloth athletic tape
scissors
hydrogen peroxide
alcohol (isopropyl...the other type is for after practice )
cold pads (if you have a freezer, ice is better...it also goes well with the "other" type of alcohol )
ibuprofen
tissue glue (this is great stuff, find it at the local drug store, sometimes called liquid band aid)
one way valve mask (for CPR)

Practice safe!

Mike
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Old 08-16-2004, 03:34 PM   #7
Christian
Dojo: Nippon Kan - Denver
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7
United_States
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Re: Automatic External Defibrillators

Quote:
Do you mean...like...for atemi?

If you're looking for training weapons you might want to start with wooden tanto or something of that nature."

LOL! That's funny!
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Old 08-16-2004, 09:08 PM   #8
Dave603
Dojo: Aikido Of Cincinnati
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17
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Re: Automatic External Defibrillators

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I am personally trained in AED/CPR, so am quite familiar with them. Just wondering if anyone has them as a part of their dojo emergency medical protocol. They are rapidly becoming the standard of care. Unfortunately, our dojo simply cannot afford one right now, barring some sort of grant. And Michael is right...not all rhythms are shockable, and the one he mentions (asystole - no rhythm whatsoever) is not even shockable by those professional, gee-whiz defibrillators you see on "ER." There has to be something there to shock. That's why they're called "defibrillators." They only work on hearts that are in ventricular fibrillation and ventricular tachycardia. The thing is, CPR will not get hearts in those two conditions back into normal rhythm, and if they are not brought back into normal rhythm, the patient will die. On top of that, in even the best cases, studies show that for every minute that defibrillation is delayed, you give up 10% of your chance of survivability. Even in a developed area with modern EMS available, how much time expires from the time the patient collapses until EMS can arrive and apply defibrillation? Patient collapses, someone evaluates them and makes a decision to call 911, call is received at the dispatch center, call is radioed to the EMS provider, EMS provider rolls, EMS arrives at scene, does their own evaluation, decides to deploy defibrillator. Do you think that might take 5 minutes? I think that would be generous. Regardless, you've just cut your patient's chance of survival by 50%! And I hope it never happens at our dojo (it has in the past), but if it did I would certainly not think we had "wasted" our money! That said, this disclaimer: I do not work for an AED manufacturer or retailer! I'm just a believer who is disappointed that our dojo can't afford one. I will shut up now!
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