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Old 08-24-2004, 02:14 PM   #26
Ron Tisdale
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

At least at the Doshinkan Yoshinkan dojo, its built into the test syllibus. There are specific ukemi for each kyu test, and the ukemi for techniques in each kyu are taught to match the desired skill in the solo ukemi. You actually have to perform the solo ukemi (typically 10 of each) on the test. I found that this method worked very well for me at least. I seem to do better with the information and skills systematized...but that's probably just my weakness.

The actual skills are reviewed in each class (we do ukemi after warmups), and are also taught during test technique classes (specifically for kyu and dan test preparation). I'd say about 2 weeks out of every 2 months is spent strictly on test preparation.

Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-24-2004 at 02:17 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-24-2004, 05:01 PM   #27
Devon Natario
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Jun: I totally agree

Larry I totally agree

You both have great points. Thanks.

Devon Natario
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Old 08-24-2004, 06:22 PM   #28
maikerus
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:

At least at the Doshinkan Yoshinkan dojo, its built into the test syllibus. There are specific ukemi for each kyu test, and the ukemi for techniques in each kyu are taught to match the desired skill in the solo ukemi.
We do something very similar to this as well. The Ukemi and Kihon Dosa parts of tests are the same for all tests, except that we add more ukemi as the rank increases. Kihon Dosa remains the same, except you have to get better at it <g>

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 08-26-2004, 08:35 PM   #29
NagaBaba
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Likewise, though, the founder did not teach nagewaza in a systematic manner but taught through a few demonstrations and that was it. Does that mean we should stop teaching the nage portion of aikido systematically?
I though about it, and I beleive that ppl being taught in systematic manner are doing very quick progress in the first few years. But in certain moment they hit a wall.This wall is in their mind. 99.99% of them will never destroy this wall(And even some of them will do, I wonder how much time and efford it takes). They will be very good techniciens, but that's all.
Ppl taught in no-systematic manner progressing much slower, but this wall is not created.
Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Would you say the same sort of thing about kihonwaza for nage?

-- Jun
kihonwaza for nage was created as a teaching tool to teach large groups ppl, or to establish some standards in an organisation. I don't think it is a right way to learn spontanouse applications.

Nagababa

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Old 08-26-2004, 08:44 PM   #30
NagaBaba
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
I have heard many students of aikido over the years say that they had experienced NO organized, specific instructions in ukemi. Many old-time aikidoka were also trained in Kodokan judo and had ukemi training there. The aikido students I spoke about above said that their instruction usually amounted to, "take this fall like that guy over there just did."

Too bad, because the lack of appropriate and relaxed skillful ukemi has hurt many people's practice.
If we are talking here about high level of practice, there were very often some students taking ukemi for other shihan then their own, and becauce of their "skillful ukemi" got baldy hurt. They simply assumed that their ukemi is appropriate, cos thei did receive last 30 years techniques from their instructor this way and were safe.
Instead of "listening" uke, they simply turned on automatic movements.

As far as I know there is no drill to teach "listening" tori. One must simply practice. So teaching any particular form of ukemi looks like useless :P

ps. oh, teaching ukemi means teaching "Dead Mouvement" LOL!

Last edited by NagaBaba : 08-26-2004 at 08:47 PM.

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Old 08-26-2004, 08:59 PM   #31
NagaBaba
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
I wonder how many records there are of folks who trained in koryu jujutsu without learning ukemi and got broken limbs etc. Of course chances are we will never know. Because something is old does not always make it immediately correct.
But they never, never lost martial spirit and could survive on real battlefield.

Can we?

They knew they practice very dangerouse techniques and kept it in mind constantly.
Safe practice as we do it today conduct straight to watered down version of healthy gimnastic.
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
So any "higher level of Aikido secrets" as you put it would also be unattainable, since there is no structure to your basic training, any hidden aspects will be shrouded in mystery until your training has developed to an extremely high degree over a ridiculously long period of time.
Instead, you develop very well empaty and intuition. This two skill are much more important then strong nikkyo or koshinage. They will save your ass in real trouble when you face life and dead.
Why? Cos structured training develops skills that work only inside of your system. Once your are out of your dojo-cocoon, you are helpless.

Last edited by NagaBaba : 08-26-2004 at 09:02 PM.

Nagababa

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Old 08-26-2004, 09:44 PM   #32
L. Camejo
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
But they never, never lost martial spirit and could survive on real battlefield.

Can we?

They knew they practice very dangerouse techniques and kept it in mind constantly.
Safe practice as we do it today conduct straight to watered down version of healthy gimnastic.
Lol - is this guy for real?
Newsflash: The War is Over - you can switch off your DVD of "The Last Samurai" now. That was a movie, not real life. In these times we fight with smart weapons and stealth aircraft - none of the fighters in the movie would have survived on a modern battlefield, so I don't see the point in asking if we could survive on their battlefield either.

Someone's ability to safely receive a dangerous technique (read: not end up dead or maimed) through Ukemi has not so much to do with "martial spirit" as you so romantically put it, but oftentimes survival. Apparently you have never experienced atemi waza (throws) that threaten to knock you out if you try to stiffen and resist (natural reaction) or a wrist twist that will snap your wrist if you had no (now instinctive) pre-programmed reactions on how to fall flowing with the movement. This shows an apparent lack of experience which may make things difficult for you to understand. I can understand that. So may I suggest that you travel more and really experience "Aikido" in its many manifestations, preferably at dojos outside your little comfort zone before you make sweeping statements. It's good to remember to never assume anything when you hear the words "Aikido is...." because you will only be seeing one small part of a very large and diverse concept that is open to interpretation.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Instead, you develop very well empaty and intuition. This two skill are much more important then strong nikkyo or koshinage. They will save your ass in real trouble when you face life and dead.
Why? Cos structured training develops skills that work only inside of your system. Once your are out of your dojo-cocoon, you are helpless.
Lol. In this country we have a saying - "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." So far the structured training system I follow has saved my hind quarters as you so eloquently put it on more than one occasions, sometimes with multiple aggressors seeking to really ruin my day.

As I indicated earlier about Sh Ha Ri - if one trains in structure it does not mean that one's mind is imprisoned in the structure. It is a guide, which when one's understanding has attained a certain level becomes decreasingly rigid and allows for more expression as concepts become action. Structure sets a solid platform for intuitive practice.

I'll tell you one thing, and this is not to take anything away from folks who train in certain ways, cuz I believe there are many ways up the mountain, but to date I have yet to see one of your "spontaneous, intuitive training" yudansha last more than 5 seconds in a controlled form of the serious, spontaneous attack practice that we regularly use to develop instinctive responses. This is of course only if they don't suddenly have an injury (or other excuse) that causes them to sit out that part of the practice. Maybe it is they who have the block that they cannot surpass.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - where is the proof, or at least an example of what you are claiming?

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-26-2004 at 09:49 PM.

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Old 08-26-2004, 10:36 PM   #33
xuzen
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Well said, Larry. In a similar analogy, let's ask a child to compose a simple song when he/she hasn't even learn the Do-Re-Mi as yet. Unless it is a child prodigy, I seriously doubt it is going to happen. Similarly, if there is no need to teach ukemi, then your dojo will probably have a lot of broken limbs here and there. If it hasn't happen, then maybe the dojo teaches some really watered down martial art, meant for babies and grand and gramps. I believe that until the uke can take the ukemi, we can't show them the more robust technique.

Nagababa's argument that structured teaching will make a student hit a mental wall has a flaw; he underestimate the complexity of the human brain. Pls give our god-given brain some due credit. We, the homo sapiens are smarter, and better at learning and formulating solutions to problems than the great apes unless you mean that those who hit the mental wall are apes (pun intended).

Boon.

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Old 08-27-2004, 12:24 PM   #34
NagaBaba
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Lol - is this guy for real?

Apparently you have never experienced atemi waza (throws) ......

This shows an apparent lack of experience ......

So may I suggest that you travel more and really experience "Aikido" in its many manifestations, preferably at dojos outside your little comfort zone before you make sweeping statements. :
Don't try cheap shots, you are not smart enough to attack me personally.

If you have nothing to say about subject of discussion, simply shut up.

Nagababa

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Old 08-28-2004, 03:38 AM   #35
L. Camejo
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

It's not a cheap shot. I am merely trying to communicate at your level of your comprehension, since it's obvious you were unable to address my initial question.

My question was: - Where is the proof to back up your argument?

Some have stated examples that show how, having learnt Ukemi in a structured manner, it has served them well in many situations where spontaneous reactions were required inside and outside the dojo. This has been my experience as well on slippery surfaces.

If you have proof that some other sort of training works better, then please enlighten us with that evidence, not claims of grandeur and airy fairy generalisations that can be interpreted in infinite ways.

You claim: Structured training causes a loss in martial spirit. - Where is your proof? What is your definition of "martial spirit?" Have you ever experienced "structured training" to make such judgments? So far you are all alone screaming into the void as you have given nothing to support your own argument that may be objectively evaluated by anyone else. Has it ever occurred to you that you may have built a house upon a foundation that does not really exist?

Others who have experienced structured practice have given examples of its benefits. Where are yours?

A concept worth sharing to the public is a concept worth challenging. If what you say is true, give us some evidence. You may be onto something, but you have yet to prove your point. It's like technique - if it is sound it does not fall apart under a little resistance.

Peace.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-28-2004, 05:28 PM   #36
Devon Natario
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

I see your point Larry. No offense Szczepan Janczuk, I just think of it in terms of the name as well.

"Do" -vs- "Jutsu"

There's a reason they changed the names. When the war was over and there was really no need for "Martial Arts" they changed it to "do" making it a "way of life".

Although, we can still use Aikido for "self defense", we must realize applications have changed from the days of war to now.

Devon Natario
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Old 08-28-2004, 08:26 PM   #37
NagaBaba
 
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
My question was: - Where is the proof to back up your argument?
ALL Founder's students, present shihans, all of them, had non systematic, structured training.
Noone from present aikido students, those who experienced super modern structured training, can't even dream to equal, not talking about surpass the shihans.

Nagababa

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Old 08-28-2004, 09:28 PM   #38
L. Camejo
 
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Thumbs down Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
ALL Founder's students, present shihans, all of them, had non systematic, structured training.
So what you are saying is that almost ALL of Ueshiba M.'s high ranking students, including his son, have abandoned the way they were taught Ukemi in how they now teach. Cuz the last time I spoke to students of many of these "Shihans" they were being taught Ukemi in a pretty structured manner by these same students of Ueshiba M., learning it in some of their earliest classes. In fact this has been my personal experience as well when training at Aikikai dojos being conducted by students of these Shihans. Beginners learn Ukemi as a separate thing (in a separate area of the mat) from a senior grade before starting to rumble with the rest of the folks.

On another note, many of Ueshiba M.'s students were high ranking Judoka, who had already learnt Ukemi in Judo training. And from my experiences in Judo, Ukemi is taught (like everything else) in a very systematic way. Kano was a systematic kinda guy.

So I guess you have just proven my point. Thank you.

Structured training does provide one with the ability to receive technique instinctively and spontaneously, since very many of Ueshiba M.'s students were in fact Judoka who had already been trained in Ukemi in a systematic manner before ever starting Aikido.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Noone from present aikido students, those who experienced super modern structured training, can't even dream to equal, not talking about surpass the shihans.
Surpass which Shihans? In what? Ukemi? I did not know that there were Ukemi competitions in Aikido. I guess Competitive Aikido is not so rare after all.

BTW, I recently trained under an Aikido Shihan (8th Dan) - he learnt his Aikido and teaches it (all of it) in a very simple, structured manner. In fact it is part of what makes his teaching system and his techniques so effective. Structure makes it easy to focus on elements of one's training that needs improvement, instead of taking shots in the dark imho.

Just my few cents. Thanks again for proving my point.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 09-03-2004, 05:00 PM   #39
david evans
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Re: How many instructors teach Ukemi Waza?

Devon,

My experience has been that ukemi is the starting point.

Instructors that I have had will not let beginners attempt techniques as uke unless they are confident that they can fall properly.

I just assumed ukemi (in its many forms and in varying degrees) was part and parcel of all aikido training.

David.
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