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Old 11-18-2005, 05:16 AM   #51
RobertFortune
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Thumbs down Re: Aikido3D - Has anyone used this?

Quote:
Steven Simister wrote:
Take a look at this website: www.aikido3d.com

It has a product on there much like an instructional DVD, but in 3D graphics. The website states that you can view the technique from any angle and zoom in etc.

My question is, is it any good? Things like finger placement for kotegaeshi etc could be an issue in my mind. I would like to know from someone who:

A. Owns the product
B. Does not work for the company/producres
---------------------------

I *do not* work for the company. (I'd like to have some stock in it though!)

November 18th, 2005. I now have in my little grubby hands a bonified copy I purchased online. The online ordering system www.AIKIDO3D.COM worked flawlessly. The shipping was *real* quick (2 or 3 days to arrive via US First Class Mail) although I forget if I chose any quick delivery option for an additional charge.

I have the Windows version. I'm using Windows XP Home Ed. with Service Pack 2 installed. I'm using a Pentium IV (3.33 ghz) with built-in Radeon 9000 IGP graphics capabilty on a Toshiba laptop.

Installation of Aikido3D was extremely quick (less than 30-40 seconds) and worked flawlessly as did the online activation process.

I do indeed like this product. As a newcomer to Aikido I appreciate being able to both see and hear (optional commentary mode) the techniques\movements and replay any of them at will easily and as many times as I like over and over until I see what it is I want to see.
That ability to *easily* replay any of the techniques as many times as I want is in my opinion a definite advantage over a standard instructional video.

I personally find the "follow" view to be as helpful or even more helpful to understanding the techniques\movements as the default straight on view. The "from the top" view I don't (yet) find as useful.

I like the (optional) commentary mode because it allows me to hear the commentator say the Japanese words\terms used in Aikido which helps me commit to memory the way they sound. When I'm reading a book on Aikido I find that being able to mentally pronounce the Japanese terms\words helps my reading comphehension of the Aikido books I'm reading.


I think this is definitely where the future of instructional martial arts and other instructional visual tools is headed especially where movements of the individual people is of vital interest and importance to one's understanding.

Right now 814Works is still selling AIkido3D for the special introductory price of $49.95 (plus shipping and handling) and I would get it now at that special price before they raise the price to its list price of $79.95.

As I've read in others' reviews of Aikido3D there is room for improvement in Aikido3D. It isn't (yet) the definitive resource of *all* of the Aikido techniques and as best as I am aware at this stage of my study generally covers pretty much all of the basics and some of the variations. Realisitically no Aikido training material could ever hope to cover all of the possible techniques and variations\combinations, but yes Aikido3D could benefit from additional coverage. Perhaps another plus would be *some* added true true-to-life video to enhance an already wonderful product.
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:44 AM   #52
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: Aikido3D

Hello everybody,

I received my copy of Aikido3D (for Windows) a couple of days ago, and I have to say that I absolutely love the product (I don't work there either). It is evident that much work, effort, wit and (most important of all) love for Aikido were invested into the creation of this learning tool. I found it kind of funny how the disclaimer ("we are not responsible for the injury resulting in the use or misuse of this product" kind of thing) pops up everytime you start the program. I agree that there's much room for improvement. For instance, once you load the program, you cannot do anything else on your computer until you quit, as the whole of the screen has been taken over by Aikido3D. I have found no way of running the program on a smaller window, or at least to have the task bar available. I have to quit the program if I want to start another application.

Further improvements could include (as stated previously) all types of Ukemi exercises (especially important for me, currently at about 30th kyu), including high breakfalls.

It would be cool if it also featured the Aikido of other grand masters, for example Steven Segal Sensei (whom I respect as Aikidoka, regardless of his personal problems), Shioda Sensei, maybe even "special appearance" of Takeda Sensei (yes, I know he's Daito-Ryu, but it would be cool nonetheless) with interchanging roles as uke or nage (maybe both at the same time). As an analogy, if the most complete chess programs feature the strategic minds of Karpov, Kasparov, Casablanca, etc., would it be really far fetched to think that Aikido3D could include Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido no less? Just a thought...

-U-

Last edited by Ulises Garcia : 11-18-2005 at 10:48 AM.

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:01 AM   #53
dj_swim
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Re: Aikido3D

Try Alt+Tab to get out of the window. This will probably only work if you've got the other application open before you start Aikido 3d. Otherwise try Alt+Esc to minimize or hit your Start button key to open a new program.

I hope this helps.

-Doug
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:08 AM   #54
aikidojoe
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Re: Aikido3D

Ulises,

I don't think that would be possible. The technology used requires the instructor (in this case Donovan Waite) to be hooked up to dozens of sensors to capture days of readings while he does the techniques over and over and over with his uke. Unless you are aware of a time machine, I think we're going to have to settle for those sensei still alive and willing to transfer their knowledge using this technology.
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:13 AM   #55
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido3D

That's funny, I was having the same thought (about featuring other styles of aikido). Maybe if we start a letter writing campeign...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:18 AM   #56
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: Aikido3D

Quote:
Joe Varano wrote:
Ulises,

I don't think that would be possible. The technology used requires the instructor (in this case Donovan Waite) to be hooked up to dozens of sensors to capture days of readings while he does the techniques over and over and over with his uke. Unless you are aware of a time machine, I think we're going to have to settle for those sensei still alive and willing to transfer their knowledge using this technology.
Hello Joe,

You're right. I guess that was way too much wishful thinking. But, hey! Maybe one day, technology will evolve as to make it easy to translate O-Sensei's documented moves into computer 3D models (still a lot of wishful thinking, I know).

-U-

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:21 AM   #57
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: Aikido3D

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
That's funny, I was having the same thought (about featuring other styles of aikido). Maybe if we start a letter writing campeign...

Best,
Ron
Hello Ron,

I'm with you there. Perhaps we should start the campaign. I wonder if anybody else has had the same thought.

-U-

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:26 PM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido3D

Well, at least you spelled campaign correctly! You write the letter, and I'll just sign my name....

Best
Ran Tusdale...

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-18-2005, 07:29 PM   #59
roosvelt
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Re: Aikido3D

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Well, at least you spelled campaign correctly! You write the letter, and I'll just sign my name....

Best
Ran Tusdale...
campaign, you don't need a useless campaign. You just need enough people vote with their hard cash.
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Old 11-21-2005, 07:25 AM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido3D

Too true, too true...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-21-2005, 09:48 AM   #61
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: Aikido3D

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
campaign, you don't need a useless campaign. You just need enough people vote with their hard cash.
Geesh, and to think I was going to start typing the letter for everyone to sign (well, sort of...).

-U-

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 11-27-2005, 02:13 PM   #62
Ben Eaton
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Re: Aikido3D

Hi,

I've been reading this thread, and have been trying to find exactly what this "style" of Aikido is and how it differs from the style I learn in my dojo, which my sensei tells me is traditional aikido.

Could anyone tell me what style is on the program (assuming the same that Donovan Waite Sensei practises), and how it differs from traditional Aikido?

Ben.
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Old 11-27-2005, 02:29 PM   #63
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aikido3D

Quote:
Ben Eaton wrote:
Hi,

I've been reading this thread, and have been trying to find exactly what this "style" of Aikido is and how it differs from the style I learn in my dojo, which my sensei tells me is traditional aikido.

Could anyone tell me what style is on the program (assuming the same that Donovan Waite Sensei practises), and how it differs from traditional Aikido?

Ben.
There is no such thing as "traditional" Aikido. There are multiple Aikido traditions... There are styles created by teachers from the early thirties, there are styles created by teachers who trained in the late thirties into the forties and early potwar, there are styles created by post war deshi and then there are vastly different approaches taken by each of these teachers within each time period. None is more "traditional" than any other although each tradition is apt to maintain that it had more of a lock on what O-sensei taught than the others which is also completely bogus. Each teacher took what fit him and what he was capable of understanding. That's it.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 11-27-2005, 07:42 PM   #64
Don
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Re: Aikido3D

Ledyard Sensei is correct. No one of the shihan who were sent to spread aikido (or those who remained in Japan) could be said to have complete insight into O'Sensei's aikido; after all it was his reality, his mind, his body, his perceptions that made it exactly his aikido. That all said, I think that most of the shihan at least at a basic level practice a similar physical model of aikido, which is why I can go to an ASU school or an Iwama school or to Hombu dojo and know basically what is going on. Specifically, Waite sensei studied in Great Britain under Chiba I believe, then came to NYC and was an uchi deshi for a long time under Yamada sensei. So, what is shown in Aikido 3D is the way Waite sensei does aikido as he learned it from Yamada sensei, which in turn is the way he does aikido as he learned it from O'Sensei. Technically, it presents "pretty much" what Yamada sensei would want to see in basic technique for any United States Aikido Federation student during the called portion of their shodan, nidan, sandan, rokyudan tests...
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Old 12-08-2005, 09:38 AM   #65
Talon
 
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Re: Aikido3D

I just got Aikido3d a couple of days ago and I must say I love the product. As other people mentioned, it would be nice if it had more techniques in it but I say this is a great start to an awesome product.
At our dojo we do some slightly different variations of some of techniques and generally practice some other techniques that were not included in Aikido3D. Perhaps newer verisons of the program will cover more techniques. Overall I think this was a great investment. I took the laptop to the Dojo yesterday and showed the program to the sensei and other students. They were very impressd with it and that day we even tried the (different) variations of some of the techniques presented on Aikido3D. I'm glad I purchased this product and believe other students from my dojo will end up purchasing it.

Hope this review helps other people considering this product.
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Old 12-08-2005, 11:05 AM   #66
giriasis
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Re: Aikido3D

Quote:
Ben Eaton wrote:
Hi,

I've been reading this thread, and have been trying to find exactly what this "style" of Aikido is and how it differs from the style I learn in my dojo, which my sensei tells me is traditional aikido.

Could anyone tell me what style is on the program (assuming the same that Donovan Waite Sensei practises), and how it differs from traditional Aikido?

Ben.
It is the "typical" techniques of the United States Aikido Federation, eastern region. As already mentioned Donovan Waite's lineage began with Chiba in Great Britain and then he moved to New York where he trained under Yamada Sensei. His aikido defnently reflects Yamada sensei's but he, as well as the other sensei at his level (Konisberg, Bernath, etc.), have developed his "own" aikido.

I have been to his seminars and most recently he taught a class at out dojo while he visiting Ft. Lauderdale. He has a very kind demeanor and is a very approachable person. He teaches clearly and takes the time to go from student to student to explain the techniques in more detail. Hardly a stuff "air" about him. He is also more well known for his ukemi videos.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 12-08-2005, 04:21 PM   #67
James Kelly
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Re: Aikido3D

Quote:
Doug Wiley wrote:
Okay, so I'll tell you my situation, and someone let me know if they think this tool would be useful:

My biggest concern right now is to learn the most basic movements very very well... I don't care if I never pass a kyu exam, that's not what I'm in this for... I'm in it for the long term... so I know that investing as much time as possible into the most basic techniques (especially ukemi) will pay dividends later. So...
Ya know... I'm not usually one to tow the party line (asu) but I think you might be better off spending your money on Saotome Sensei's ‘Principles of Aikido' video. It's not so much about the difference in styles between usaf and asu which aren't so fundamentally different as, say, the differences between any two senseis inside one of the organizations, but for me, I'd rather see a real person throwing another real person (and it doesn't hurt that the person throwing is a direct student of O Sensei).

I'm actually a 3d animator and have done quite a bit of work capturing aikido and dance movements and still feel that the subtleties, the overall complexities of movement throughout the entire body, are not capturable by today's technology.

I think most of us would agree that aikido isn't only about where to put your feet and hands, there's another level going on. I can step in and push at exactly the same angle as a more experienced person and they can take uke's balance while I can't.

Usually we say this has to be ‘felt' on the mat. For me the word ‘feeling' is a code word for a whole lot of subtle movements that can't be expressed simply by saying you have to press here at this angle. That's the bit that I don't think our motion capture technology is able to get yet.

I'm not saying this isn't a cool tool (I've only seen it once on someone's laptop), but I wonder if for a beginner, the shihan's videos might be more helpful. I know for me, there's an extra level of inspiration, just getting jazzed up to train, that I get watching the videos that I didn't get watching the mocap stuff.

My $0.02
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Old 12-08-2005, 08:28 PM   #68
giriasis
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Re: Aikido3D

I agree with James that if there are videos that are specific to your association then get those. Then after you gain a basic foundation judiciously select others for variation or deeper insight from another perspective. But if your just trying to learn what is expected of you in an ASU school then get the Saotome or Ikeda sensei videos. If you're looking to branch out to other points of view then select others. That is what I have done. I have Yamada Sensei's Power and Basics series along with Donovan Waite's ukemi videos. However, I also I really love the Aikido In Training videos even though they are more Iwama influenced. But the key to not getting yourself confused is to immerse yourself in the "way" of your dojo and then spread out from there.

Last edited by giriasis : 12-08-2005 at 08:30 PM.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 12-09-2005, 09:22 AM   #69
Talon
 
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Re: Aikido3D

My sensei and our Dojo is very open minded and new variations are always welcome. I must say that Aikido3d is far superior to any tape that I have seen or own just because I can change the angles of view and zoom in on the movements I find interesting. This allows for the study of the technique in much more detail. Videos are 2D period Aikido3d is in a virtual 3D world and it allows the viewer to view the movement in 3D. I strongly recomend it.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:57 PM   #70
Tom Liauw
 
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Re: Aikido3D

Hmm, I'll be taking my 5th Kyu test soon. This thread is pretty useful. I'll probably get it when I can spare some money.

Anyone got more reviews?
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:15 AM   #71
crbateman
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Re: Aikido3D

I recently got my copy. I think it will be very useful, as long as it's used in the proper context. Those who would use it in lieu of legitimate training with a qualified instructor are just fooling themselves, but it does have considerable value nonetheless. And it is a very slick and versatile package, and a LOT of bang for 50 bucks. I hope that a feature will be built-in allowing "plug-in" of additional techniques, should the library be increased in the future.
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Old 04-15-2006, 11:17 PM   #72
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido3D

As an introduction to the art this is a very valuable tool.

Also, advancing technology should soon allow digital animators to do 3D compositions from film.

I've already seen CAD drawing programs that render flat 2D motion drawings into 3D animations.

Doing that with O-Sensei's old film footage should allow CGI programmers the ability to make a competent 3-D animation of what he is doing.

Being able to see O-Sensei's Aikido in 3-D form on a computer would be awesome.

I hope to see this done sometime in the next 20 years.
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Old 04-16-2006, 09:51 AM   #73
giriasis
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Re: Aikido3D

I just received my copy within this past week. I really find it a very useful tool. It is like a combination of using a book, watching a video and playing a video game.

First I want to say that there is an introduction which states that "Aikido3D is a training aid designed to complement your Aikido training journey." So the point of this video is NOT meant to replace dojo train just supplement it.

Nage / Uke Features: There are about two different features related to nage and uke. First, you can turn nage and uke on and off (my fave and most useful IMO). Second, you can turn their hakamas on and off.

I loved the ability to turn uke and nage off. Let's say I just want to watch nage's movement without the distraction of uke's. I can just click off uke and watch nage. And the same goes vice versa. And just watch the uke. If you want to see the ukemi from Donovan Waite's ukemi videos put in action just turn the nage off. Now, the ukemi portion is not explained, but the creators were apparently aware of this and stated in the introduction that if you want to develop your ukemi more to purchase the videos.

I also enjoyed turning the hakamas off so I can see the foot work more.

Viewing Options:
There are three options front, top and follow. In the front and top portions you have the addtional feature of zooming and rotating your view. So if you are watching from the front and you want to see the view from the back you can rotate the view 180 degrees. If you want to see the view from the side you can rotate the view 90 degrees. If you want to see a specific point you can rotate and zoom. I found the top view really helpful to watch hip rotation and hand placement. And this is a view you can't even get in a dojo. Unless you're sitting up on beams directly above your sensei and how many of us really can do THAT in our own dojo? The follow feature is nice, but you don't have control over where you follow. But it's my best guess that the creators choose to show the important points.

Description of the techniques:

There are two types: Written and Commentary

You can play the commentary by Donovan Waite Sensei as you watch. When you have the commentary turn on the technique continues to cycle until you press pause or turn it off. I would play this a few times then turn it off for my own personal exploration. There is written explanation of the technique on the left hand side of the screen and it's not a mere repeat of the commentary. Also, the written explanation goes into more detail.

Also a nice feature right below the written instructions is a place you can write your own personal notes.

Center Radials and Nage Footprints:
The Center Radials are useful to watch hip rotation and the nage foot prints and useful to more clearly see how nage moves in relation to uke. When the footprint feature was on I would pause and trace uke's line of movement. It was very helpful to see the angles and position of nage. I had a couple of "a-ha" moments just using this feature.

Summation:
Overall I really enjoy this training tool and I think it will be helpful for the beginner to learn the basic movement and for the more advanced to look at the details of things like angles or hip rotation. An advanced pracitioner will be able to more deeply explore the basic techniques and a beginning practitioner will be able to learn the basic form and movement of the techniques.

I really wish I had this as a kyu rank or even for my 1st kyu test as I think it would have been very helpful to have the ability to see details that you just can't see on a video or book. I think Aikido3D does a great job of explaining and demonstrating the basic techniques and when used right can be a useful tool for more advanced practitioners. As a more advanced practitioner I really could visually analyze the technique over and over. However, I would like to see some advanced techniques demonstrated which also include henka waza, kaeshi waza, tachi tori, jo nage and jo tori as well as randori which are all part of the dan requirements. Perhapst this could be good content for an Aikido3D Vol.2?

Regarding the technology:
Oh, visually, as a side note. I play video games and the movement was very akin to this. I think some limitations of Aikido3D is related to the technology rather than the skill of the instructor. Donovan Waite has very fluid and strong technique and the motion capture does not fully "capture" this; however, it does so significantly enough to still be a very useful tool. Perhaps as this technology improves then the 3D image movement will improve.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 04-16-2006, 01:34 PM   #74
Tom Liauw
 
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Re: Aikido3D

Thanks for that review, Anne Marie.
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Old 04-16-2006, 08:15 PM   #75
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido3D

Yes that was very informative, thanks for taking the time to post all that!
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