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Old 03-12-2001, 08:09 AM   #26
Sam
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Quote:
Jappzz wrote:
Hi!

BuDO as opposed to jutsu or bugei arts is called budo for it's spiritual content. The essence of budo is that the initial attacker should always be defeated. Budo was NOT created so that macho bullies could try their ego's against eachother. I detest this americanized tomiki bull and i can only hope that some day people will stop defining budo as something anywhere near a sport. I have full respect though for people doing bugei arts as a part of the japanese cultural heritage but then they don't define their arts as budo either.
Feel free to shower me whith blunt comments if you like, but my oppinion stays where it is. Life is no contest.

Jasper


I don't really see the point of this post - if you have already made your mind up why bother joining in - I think everyone else is here to discuss things with an open mind and not rant.

I do not understand where you are comming from with the phrase
'americanised tomiki bull'. Not only is it disrespectful to Professor Tomiki and to a lot of people here but also is untrue.

Tomiki aikido is Japanese, thrives in Japan and has a worldwide network of affiliated dojos all practising tomiki aikido in exactly the same way so you cannot say it is americanised.

If you do not like a style then say so but try not to be so offensive.

How is your spiritual developement by the way.........?
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Old 03-12-2001, 02:10 PM   #27
dainippon99
Dojo: Tulsa Aikido & Jujutsu
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Jappz,

Kendo is considered budo. It has competition. Im not trying to liken shodokan to kendo, but their aims are the same. Spiritual/physical advancement. We pursue it in our own way. As for your comment "americanised tomiki bull", i can assure you it is not. shodokan is pure japanese. And, on a sidenote, i once got good edvice from a poster on this site (ubaldo)---"No need to be diselegant."

Always be well,
Bobby David
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Old 03-12-2001, 03:02 PM   #28
Brian
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Quote:
Jappzz wrote:
I detest this americanized tomiki bull...
Truly, anyone who is confident that they have the authority to take an established style of a martial art and disregard it as bull must be a great master indeed. Please, tell me where you live, so that I might train under you and share in your incredible wisdom.
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Old 03-12-2001, 04:20 PM   #29
Erik
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Quote:
Jappzz wrote:
I detest this americanized tomiki bull and i can only hope that some day people will stop defining budo as something anywhere near a sport.
Sigh!

I recognize that America will eventually lead to the downfall of the free world. Our moral standards are corrupt, we live in sin and we've given the world Britney Spears (but we did not give the world the Pet Shop Boys or Ricky Martin). However, there are at least 2 things, as related to the MA community, that we are not guilty of to the best of my knowledge.

1. We did not create Tomiki Aikido.
2. We did not create the rank system.

We can thank our Japanese friends for both of these innovations.

This was for the sake of those of you not trolling and I paid a terrible price for this. I visited the web sites of all of those mentioned above. Horrible. OK, I'd been to the Britney Spears site before but only once.

[Edited by Erik on March 12, 2001 at 05:17pm]
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Old 03-12-2001, 04:59 PM   #30
Chris P.
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Quote:
Jappzz wrote:
Feel free to shower me whith blunt comments if you like, but my oppinion stays where it is. Life is no contest.
I think many members of the animal kingdom might violently disagree. It is "no contest" for those on top, whether they find themselves there by virtue of training, inheritance, or sheer luck.
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Old 03-12-2001, 05:07 PM   #31
Nick
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Tomiki-sensei was American? Wow, learn something new everyday... as for the subject... I can see that he is firm in his beliefs, and I actually do agree with the content (not the wording). When something gets bigger, arguments will occur as politics and differing opinions get in the way. If this were not so, there would be no Tomiki-kai, no Ki no Kenkyukai, nothing, we'd all still be part of the Aikikai. So of course if Tomiki aikido itself gets too big, there will be problems as the tournaments turn into trophy fests, with a bunch of... well, jerks parading their kata and yelling nice and loud, to applause as they finish. Having attended many karate tournaments run by good budoka, you could find a lot of spirit and determination that is found only on the competition floor, however you also find a lot of ego and inflated heads as they show it off like a double jointed wrist to appease their friends and earn the respect of those who know no better, and spend all the training time doing tournament stuff so that they can have shiny external trophies... it's really a mixed bag, some incredibly good aspects and some bad-- but those who want to compete will, though I think defeating myself is worth more than a medal or trophy... but for those who wish to have competition, I say do it with the spirit of Aiki and try to remember what Aikido's all about.

Peace,

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 03-12-2001, 09:06 PM   #32
Jim23
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Quote:
Nick wrote:
So of course if Tomiki aikido itself gets too big, there will be problems as the tournaments turn into trophy fests, with a bunch of... well, jerks parading their kata and yelling nice and loud, to applause as they finish. Having attended many karate tournaments run by good budoka, you could find a lot of spirit and determination that is found only on the competition floor, however you also find a lot of ego and inflated heads
There will be inflated egos whether there is competition or not.

I know that there is sparring practice in Tomiki aikido, but is this really competition, as in tournaments? Or is it more like a competitive game to improve each person's skill?

But back to competition for a minute, is it really all that bad (and I don't mean the extreme levels that people will probably picture)? You can't get through the day without being exposed to some form of competition. In fact, some people even lose the will to live without it (retirement). And look at the competition even here in this forum.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 03-13-2001, 02:56 AM   #33
Sam
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Quote:
Nick wrote:
Tomiki-sensei was American? Wow, learn something new everyday...
Although Prof. Tomiki spent a great deal of time in the U.S. he was born in Japan and spent most of his life there
teaching physical education and budo in university. I don't think he became and american unless I am very much mistaken.
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Old 03-13-2001, 04:52 AM   #34
Jappzz
 
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Sigh!

Naturally i don't mean that tomiki sensei was american. I'm just saying that these "tournament heretics" :-) have more in common with macho americans than with serious budo practitioners of any nationality. I understand that most people on this forum are american but my experience of americans in general is hardly that they try to embrace foreign cultures but rather pervert it into something that fits better into a society of shallowness and comecialism. Figures that i'm going to get som really hairy answers but i still don't think that american influence on martial arts has brought much positive results though there are several highly skilled practicioners in the US.

Feel free to comment

Jasper
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Old 03-13-2001, 05:54 AM   #35
Sam
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I hope I am not making a mistake by taking what you have said literally, but in your mind -
1. Tomiki style is 'bull'.
2. The entire U.S. is shallow and commercial.
3. We are all 'tournament heretics.'

I would like to ask you why you have formed these opinions. I would probably attach more credibility to your sweeping statement if for example you said ' I went to a competition and......'

In your original post you said that Budo was about spiritual developement, and that to me means among other things the development of a tolerant mind. How can you point out the value of such a quality and in the same post be so intolerant?

I personally do not think that I have the right to judge a particular style or to judge an entire peoples.

Why do you?
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Old 03-13-2001, 07:16 AM   #36
Jappzz
 
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Double sigh!

I'm just stating that i find it sad that budo is being distorted into something i belive it is not. And as for me condemning americans in any way that is just my personal oppinion and if anyone feels offended i'm sorry. I have yet to understand how americanizing budo would be positive to martial arts. I do not consider myself being intolerant but i have seen to many examples of american turning culture into something shallow.

Jasper
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Old 03-13-2001, 08:57 AM   #37
Steve Speicher
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Unhappy

Triple sigh... and a half!

From an objective viewpoint, I would say that in general America (meaning the USA) tends to commercialize everything and anything it can. The higher goal (at least the one that is endorsed) is to make money, as much as possible, and as quick as possible, through whatever means. And it is okay to sacrifice morals, ethics, and beliefs to achieve this end.

However, many Americans, probably even MOST Americans, do not agree with this, and would rather dedicate their lives to other more noble pursuits.

I say the above to show I understand why you've developed your opinion, and that it does have a valid basis. However, to then go and make sweeping generalizations about every American is not only disrepectful, but shows a very underdeveloped spirit. Nationalism has no place in aikido, as O Sensei envisioned aikido as a way to unify humanity, not strengthen its boundaries and divisions.

So yes, I do take offense to your statements. However, I will try to keep an open mind, and treat you with the respect you've denied me, because I am an American..... oh well

Peace,

Quote:
Jappzz wrote:
Double sigh!

I'm just stating that i find it sad that budo is being distorted into something i belive it is not. And as for me condemning americans in any way that is just my personal oppinion and if anyone feels offended i'm sorry. I have yet to understand how americanizing budo would be positive to martial arts. I do not consider myself being intolerant but i have seen to many examples of american turning culture into something shallow.

Jasper

-----------------------------
Steve Speicher
May I ask what is meant by the strong, moving power (hao jan chih chi)? "It
is difficult to describe," Mencius replied. -- Mencius IIA2

403-256 BCE
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Old 03-13-2001, 09:08 AM   #38
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Jappzz wrote:
Double sigh!

I'm just stating that i find it sad that budo is being distorted into something i belive it is not. And as for me condemning americans in any way that is just my personal oppinion and if anyone feels offended i'm sorry. I have yet to understand how americanizing budo would be positive to martial arts. I do not consider myself being intolerant but i have seen to many examples of american turning culture into something shallow.

Jasper
What you're really saying, without realizing it, is that you're a bigot.

Being in my situation and living where I do, I get a lot of experience in recognizing subtle bigotry. Your's isn't even subtle.

Maybe you should attend one of my sensitivity courses.


[Edited by Greg Jennings on March 13, 2001 at 09:13am]

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Old 03-13-2001, 09:25 AM   #39
Sam
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Quote:
Jappzz wrote:
Double sigh!

I'm just stating that i find it sad that budo is being distorted into something i belive it is not.

I am not American so I am not offended by the comments about American comercialism and such and such.
However what I find offensive is the idea that everyone is practising this 'perverted' aikido except you. My instructor was taught by shihan at the hombu and I am going for six months training under shihan. I am sure people around the world including America are doing the same thing - in this way something cannot be (insert nationality)-ised.

I don't really understand if you are knocking tomiki aikido or the U.S. If it is the former I cannot accept your opinion because frankly you do not know enough about it.

Have you every heard of the expression 'with ability comes humility?'
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Old 03-13-2001, 11:01 AM   #40
Jim23
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I'm new to aikido (not new to the martial arts) and I feel that I have a fairly open mind and am fairly objective - I have absolutely no reason to be otherwise.

I really don't understand why so many people are against Tomiki "sparring". I looked at a few video clips of Tomiki aikido and I don't know what the problem is (no lectures budo and not competing with yourself please). It's not really sparring - it's training. Sure, points are given if your partner gets through to you, but so what?

While reading Matt's thread on "warrior spirit" (excellent topic Matt!) I kept thinking of Tomiki aikido - really testing yourself and your partners, with mutual respect.

I've said many times that I don't agree with "tournaments". This is just testing aikido's effectiveness - the parts that can be tested, that is - which is better than nothing.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 03-13-2001, 12:31 PM   #41
Magma
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Quote:
darin wrote:

Personally I think aikido should have more competition. Its done good things for almost all martial arts.
How wholeheartedly can I disagree with this statement...? Wholeheartedly. If cotton-candy dojos and egos the size of texas, sensei's looking to turn a buck with black-belt contracts, and the core of an art sacrificed because it doesn't fit into the acceptable (safe) techniques of a tournament are all good things, then I guess I'd agree with you.

I'm not saying that tomiki aikido suffers from these things, but that broadly these problems have crept into the martial arts world and owe a great deal of their existence to competition.

My stand on competition in aikido is that it is counter-intuitive. I don't seek to win in my aikido, I seek to harmonize and resolve a situation. So if I am asked to show my skills against an opponent, I can show aikido. If I am asked to show them against an opponent who is honestly trying to hit me and take me down, fine, I can show aikido. If I am in either of these situations and I am being given points based on my performance, I'm no longer showing aikido. I'm showing how well I can play the tournament game.

Besides, everything positive that I have heard about the tomiki style competition I can get simply by asking any of my sempai (and several kohai) of mine to be more realistic in their attack; to really try to hit me as they might outside of the basic front punch, shomen strike, or yoko. Calling something competition does not make it any more 'real' - at least, not by definition. Making something real results in making that thing real. I have read this entire thread, and though I feel that the everyone seems to be training (in competition or not) very sincerely, I see two contrasting arguments made in defense of Tomiki aikido:
1) That it makes the attack more realistic.
2) That it is not realistic because: "There are too many limitations for tanto-randori to be considered 'true' sparring. As my sensei told me, 'Tanto randori is a game; it has rules.'"

Honestly, no sarcasm, can someone clear that up for me?

Hmmm, maybe the question shouldn't be about competition, but why those positive things being discussed and credited to competition (committed attack, technique tested in realistic circumstance, technique applied against an unwilling target, etc.) aren't present in our regular training?



Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 03-13-2001, 12:51 PM   #42
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
I'm new to aikido (not new to the martial arts) and I feel that I have a fairly open mind and am fairly objective - I have absolutely no reason to be otherwise.

I really don't understand why so many people are against Tomiki "sparring". I looked at a few video clips of Tomiki aikido and I don't know what the problem is (no lectures budo and not competing with yourself please). It's not really sparring - it's training. Sure, points are given if your partner gets through to you, but so what?

While reading Matt's thread on "warrior spirit" (excellent topic Matt!) I kept thinking of Tomiki aikido - really testing yourself and your partners, with mutual respect.

I've said many times that I don't agree with "tournaments". This is just testing aikido's effectiveness - the parts that can be tested, that is - which is better than nothing.

Jim23
My take is that a lot of people are saying that they believe that they wouldn't like competition. That's OK. Where it goes wrong is when they make the leap that it's wrong for everyone or wrong for Aikido (which in this context is the same thign).

I, personally, don' t want to take part in anything where a winner and, de facto, a loser are declared. But that's just me.

I think having options for both people that want competition as part of their Budo and peole that do not is a great thing, not a bad one.

For example, I am, by nature and situation, a hyper-competitive person. I'm as aggressive and cranky as a hungry grizzly bear with a tooth ache. You've heard of the "type A personality"? I'm a AAA.

I'm trying very, very hard to mellow out. Cooperative training is working for me right now. I might be able to handle the Tomiki/Jiyushinkai form of competition in the future. Just not now. Trust me, it would be a bad thing.

OTOH, I know a lot of folks that do very well with competitive Budo: Kendo, Judo, Karatedo, etc.

Jim23, I need to understand better what you mean by "sparring". Most dojo that I've visited (10 or so) practice jiyuwaza and randori where the parts of nage and uke are fluid and frequently transpose. But there are no judges, no scoring and no winner or loser; just training. Also it's not "all out". The level of effort into applying the technique and resisting/reversing the technique is scaled to suit one's partner.

FWIW, YMMV,

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Old 03-13-2001, 01:21 PM   #43
Chris P.
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Quote:
Magma wrote:

My stand on competition in aikido is that it is counter-intuitive. I don't seek to win in my aikido, I seek to harmonize and resolve a situation. So if I am asked to show my skills against an opponent, I can show aikido. If I am asked to show them against an opponent who is honestly trying to hit me and take me down, fine, I can show aikido. If I am in either of these situations and I am being given points based on my performance, I'm no longer showing aikido. I'm showing how well I can play the tournament game.
If your partner really tries to hit you, and they succeed, you are most certainly a loser in that exchange; you lose your health. They want to hurt you, you don't want them to hurt you: this is the competition. To claim otherwise is a useless piece of sophistry. You should not try to claim the moral high ground of martial arts, you are throwing stones from a glass house.
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Old 03-13-2001, 01:27 PM   #44
Jim23
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Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:

Jim23, I need to understand better what you mean by "sparring". Most dojo that I've visited (10 or so) practice jiyuwaza and randori where the parts of nage and uke are fluid and frequently transpose. But there are no judges, no scoring and no winner or loser; just training. Also it's not "all out". The level of effort into applying the technique and resisting/reversing the technique is scaled to suit one's partner.
Greg,

I'm not the best person to answer questions on Tomiki aikido.

The Tomiki "sparring" that I saw was very much like you mention, except that there was someone keeping "score". Not everyone's cup of tea, maybe, but not so bad either.

The "competition" that I saw was someone attacking (lunging) with a knife (trying to "score") and someone defedning (then switching roles). Probably no different than done in most dojos, except for the "points" awarded if you "scored" or defended well. It's still co-operative training in my view.

If someone gets upset by "losing" by a score of, say, 1-2 points, they have a problem that even aikido can't fix - just don't drive in front of them after leaving the dojo.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 03-13-2001, 01:43 PM   #45
Magma
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Quote:
Chris P. wrote:
Quote:
Magma wrote:

My stand on competition in aikido is that it is counter-intuitive. I don't seek to win in my aikido, I seek to harmonize and resolve a situation. So if I am asked to show my skills against an opponent, I can show aikido. If I am asked to show them against an opponent who is honestly trying to hit me and take me down, fine, I can show aikido. If I am in either of these situations and I am being given points based on my performance, I'm no longer showing aikido. I'm showing how well I can play the tournament game.
If your partner really tries to hit you, and they succeed, you are most certainly a loser in that exchange; you lose your health. They want to hurt you, you don't want them to hurt you: this is the competition. To claim otherwise is a useless piece of sophistry. You should not try to claim the moral high ground of martial arts, you are throwing stones from a glass house.
Chris, I am not saying that competition is not competitive. I am saying that in competition, *competition* (or "winning") becomes the highlight (or at least, it *can*). Not aikido.

Now, if I understand you correctly, your are saying that even in standard training with a committed uke, there is a "winner" and a "loser" since the uke either connects or is foiled by the nage. And since there is a winner and a loser anyway, it is a competition of sorts. Am I restating your point correctly? If so, let me say that if these things are present in my normal training (both the positive benefits of training with a committed partner and the negatives of having a winner and a loser), then what do I gain through competition. Why risk letting the competition become the focus rather than the training or the aikido?

In fact, someone could even make the argument that competition is competition *because* it is the focus. And that's the last thing I want from my training. Others may disagree, but I have yet to hear a benefit of competition training that I cannot gain from non-competitive training.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 03-13-2001, 02:07 PM   #46
Brian
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Ai symbol

Quote:
Magma wrote:


... I see two contrasting arguments made in defense of Tomiki aikido:
1) That it makes the attack more realistic.
2) That it is not realistic because: "There are too many limitations for tanto-randori to be considered 'true' sparring. As my sensei told me, 'Tanto randori is a game; it has rules.'"

Honestly, no sarcasm, can someone clear that up for me?

[/b]
I wouldn't say that the attack itself is made more realistic because it is made in competition. I am positive that anyone, of any style of any martial art, can make an attack that is just as committed with or without competition involved if they want to.

I also would not say that competition is not realistic at all because of the rules; rather, I would say that it is not realistic if one is shooting for complete realism. In any martial art competition, there are rules, and whether they are for convenience, safety, or some other reason, they will still limit how real it can be. To give an extreme example- Don't kill your opponent. Although it may seem a rather obvious rule to abide by, this may not apply in a more 'realistic' situation.

I would have to say that randori does not necessarily make the attack more realistic, but the situation. To make use of an analogy, let's take a look at basketball practice (And yes, I realize that Aikido is not a sport, and that there are incredible differences between basketball and aikido, but I just want to make this better understood).

Player #1 is handed the ball. He is instructed by his coach to shoot while Player #2 attempts to prevent him from doing so. The coach says, "Go." Player #2 begins to flail his arms in the air, but Player #1 manages to shoot the ball. Both players then stop, and prepare to do the same thing again. Afterwards, they may move on to another drill designed to improve a different skill involved in basketball.

Then, there is the basketball game. Rather than simply stopping after a single shot is, well, shot, the game continues. Whether the shot is made or missed, all participants continue to play for an allotted amount of time, and do not stop until that time runs out.

The basketball players in the above analogy spent their practice honing their various basketball skills, and then used all or many of them in the basketball game. How well they performed in the game may show how good thier skills truly are (And yes, I do realize this may or may not show how good a player they are based upon many other factors involved.)

The same is true with randori. In class, we train our various aikido skills (Although, not specifically for a game, but for that hypothetical situation in life where we may need them.) We participate in various drills or excercises or just practice particular techniques over and over again, in the hope of improving our skill. Then, some of us participate in randori so that we can test those skills to a certain extent. It helps us know what needs improving, which is much better to discover after being stabbed with a rubber knife than with a real one.

When I said randori is not true sparring, I meant it if you believed sparring was something of a Free For All event, where any technique of any kind, no matter how hazardous to someone else's health may be used. I also wanted to point out the specific requirements for a 'valid' stab. Basically, I meant to convey that, because of rules, it is not 'real,' but the situation may have been brought to a higher degree of realism than when two people take turns performing techniques (And, no, I am not saying that not participating in randori will prevent you from ever being truly ready to use your aikido skills).

To summarize my summarizations, randori is just another learning tool.
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Old 03-13-2001, 02:37 PM   #47
Steve Speicher
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Randori??

I'm a little confused on what randori is exactly.

We practice randori in my dojo periodically, but it is just a multiple attacker situation, nothing to do with competition or scoring (not that there's anything wrong with that).

So I thought that was what randori entailed, one person defending from multiple attackers.

As randori is presented here though, it seems to be a type of competition, like that of Tomiki style.

So where is my limited knowledge of the Japanese language leading me wrong??

To better put it, does randori have multiple definitions??

-----------------------------
Steve Speicher
May I ask what is meant by the strong, moving power (hao jan chih chi)? "It
is difficult to describe," Mencius replied. -- Mencius IIA2

403-256 BCE
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Old 03-13-2001, 02:53 PM   #48
akiy
 
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Re: Randori??

Quote:
Steve Speicher wrote:
To better put it, does randori have multiple definitions??
Yes, as does the term "jiyuwaza."

Some dojo consider "jiyuwaza" to be one uke and one nage with uke doing any attack and nage responding in any way. Other dojo consider it to be the same number of people but with uke attacking in one certain way.

Some dojo consider "randori" to be the multiple-attackers scenarior which, in most Aikikai dojo I've visited, have uke attacking with ryokatadori and nage responding with the "pass-through" kind of kokyunage. Others use randori in the same manner but with uke attacking in any way.

Other dojo I have been to consider randori to have one uke and one nage with uke attacking in any way while nage does any technique (a la the first definition of jiyuwaza up above).

Other dojo take randori to be like that of judo's randori wherein the attacks and responses are freestyle and where the "roles" of uke and nage freely switch back and forth according to who holds the initative (sente).

I may have missed some, but at least these are some of the "definitions" of randori that I've encountered so far...

-- Jun

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Old 03-13-2001, 03:12 PM   #49
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
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I think that everyone speaks from experience, so a Tomiki person may define randori as it has been used in this thread, while you and I may define it as we practice it: one on many.

Hmm, Brian, I understand what you are saying, but like Nottingham's cousin (from the Kevin Costner Robin Hood) who pondered, "But why a spoon, cousin?",
I'm left asking... "why have points?"

If learning really is the goal, learning will happen. Points only serve to enforce who won and who died.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 03-13-2001, 06:57 PM   #50
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
Location: San Francisco, CA USA
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*plonk*

=willy
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