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Old 11-02-2004, 09:53 PM   #51
Huker
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Re: Boxing type punches

You could wait until he punches and possibly get hit, or make your move before he starts his punch. A boxing stance usually involves the hands relatively close to the face. Lets say his hands are open or closed around his chin/jaw level. One of his hands (lets say right) is closer to his face than the other, which is out a bit further.

Now--
1-with your lead hand, push his lead hand to the outside
2-he should start a punch with his other hand at this point
3-with your rear hand, push his punch aside to the outside (from the inside)
4-using the same hand as in 3, come in to his neck with a chop using the outside ridge of your hand

That strike to the side neck should take him down. Killing him using that strike (unless you mean to) would just be bad luck. It'll make your attacker see stars tho.

Of course, I've got no boxing experience, but I've seen people take the above stance.

You guys are right, it is easier in theory than applied, but that's the idea. You can't read this stuff and expect to walk out an expert.
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Old 11-02-2004, 10:53 PM   #52
CNYMike
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
Interesting that many of the responses to the question have drawn upon what other arts have developed.
Yes, but hopefully instructive.

Of course, I reread the original post, and the question IIRC was someone doing both boxing and Aikido who wondered what in Aikido could be used against something like a jab. The proper answer is "not much," especially if he'd be sparring in a boxing ring in accordance with boxing rules. (Helps to really read the original post, doesn't it?) That doesn't mean that an Aikidoka can't adapt his game to deal with a jab. And that certainly doesn't mean the original poster won't benefit from doing both boxing and aikido, although the benefits will probably be a lot harder for him to quantify and might not be what he expects. But for the situation he seemed to be describing, probably can't help much. And even if he did try something on someone who was also an MMA player, he'd be toast, because they train to combine kickboxing and grappling and he'd be improvising.

Quote:

I've seen a few comments about how boxer's aren't used to dealing with kicks (which I agree with) and just take their legs out. How many of you folks train in aikido dojos were much time is spend developing your kicking skills to the point where you can let loose with a string, balanced kick to a moving targt that's trying to hit you? I can't say that I've been to any dojos or seminars where this subject was covered. We did some of this training for a while but then the class moved on to other concepts and the atemi training has gone by the wayside.

Chris
I agree. The strategy is even riskier considering that boxers don't sit in one place -- they also use evasive footwork and move around. Just tonight, my Kali instructor described boxing as being all about angles, and said they are very good at hitting you even when you think you can't get hit. So clearly, an aikidoka who knows nothing about boxing facing a boxer has his or her work cut out for them. A Thai Boxer could pulll it off, but they train to do something like that.

If all else fails, an aikidoka in that situation -- or facing any other attack they haven't formally trained against -- will have the best chances of not getting his or her block knocked off by following these three steps:

1. DON'T PANIC! Or at least stay as relaxed as possible with your flight-or-fligh reflex in overdirve.

2. Get off the line/evade AND bring both hands into play. One thing I've appreciated about Aikido since resuming it is the emphasis on having both hands active even if only one hand as been grabbed; the tenkan and irimi drills we've done are good examples. Now, whether fully extending your arms like that would be suicidal against my Kali instructor is another question (if so, the last thing you'd hear before splatting into the floor would be "thank you,") but in general, I think it's having both hands on the move and "live," especially when on what Filipinos call the Female Triangle (which Aikido people use all the time without knowing it) is not necessarily a bad place to be!

3. If you've made it through 1 and 2 without being clobbered, then find something, ANYTHING. Don't plan ahead, just take what is offered you and use it.

It's just my opion, but I think that when one reads anecdotes about an Aikido instructor "winning" a challenge from a kickboxer or Judoka or whatever, the above things are what saved that person's gravy -- keeping a relatively cool head, evading and getting both hands involved. The joint lock or throw would be gravy; the first few seconds of the encounter, IMHO, are the critical ones.

Just my 2p. FWIW.
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Old 11-03-2004, 12:03 AM   #53
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Re: Boxing type punches

"That strike to the side neck should take him down. Killing him using that strike (unless you mean to) would just be bad luck. It'll make your attacker see stars tho. "

Do other people think this is the case? Is this is to the side of the neck, or somehow to the trachea? I would think a ridge hand like that to the side of the kneck (especially a left handed one) wouldn't even bother an attacker, much less stun them.
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Old 11-03-2004, 10:56 AM   #54
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
"That strike to the side neck should take him down. Killing him using that strike (unless you mean to) would just be bad luck. It'll make your attacker see stars tho. "

Do other people think this is the case? Is this is to the side of the neck, or somehow to the trachea? I would think a ridge hand like that to the side of the kneck (especially a left handed one) wouldn't even bother an attacker, much less stun them.
Chris,
You should put some study into this. There is a spot on the side of the neck, right where the carotid atery is that you would compress for a sleeper hold. Not only is the artery there but also a nerve bundle which, if struck, will render someone quite unconcsious. There is a Defensive tactics group in Florida that teaches their officers to strike this spot with their forearms in order to minimize penetration and thereby injury. A knife hand will do the job but has a much higher possibility of injuring the neck.

I saw a film of some officers training when they were attacked by a pimp on drugs and one of the officers executed a picture prefect strike to the side of the neck and you've never seen anyone more out cold in an instant.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 11-03-2004, 12:24 PM   #55
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I saw a film of some officers training when they were attacked by a pimp on drugs and one of the officers executed a picture prefect strike to the side of the neck and you've never seen anyone more out cold in an instant.
I saw that too, it sure seemed to work quite well. A friend of mine went to Federal Law Enforcement Training and one of the films they watched had a prison guard do this to an inmate during a riot (the guard used a back hand slap). My friend said the inmate was instantly out. I've been tagged lightly there myself and gotten that woozy, tunnel vision thing so there does seem to be some evidence that it may work

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 11-03-2004, 01:12 PM   #56
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Boxing type punches

It is one of the atemi used in the mainline kata of Daito ryu. So there is also a firm connection to aikido.

RT

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Old 11-03-2004, 05:25 PM   #57
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Re: Boxing type punches

A couple of the recent responses involved a lot of steps to dealing with the threat. On paper, those things work. In practice, there is a very small chance you will be able to do everything in a certain order, especially if you never practice it with full resistance.

My advice remains the same: learn to box. Getting a lot of experience in boxing will not only teach you how a boxer would deal with it, but you will have enough realistic experience with boxing to find ways to apply your other training (ie aikido) to defending against it. Simply thinking of counters to stuff isn't going to work.
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Old 11-03-2004, 05:36 PM   #58
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Re: Boxing type punches

Michael,

Good post, sounds like you and I are on the same page. I've also been supplementing my training and getting a different perspective.

Chris
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Old 11-03-2004, 11:25 PM   #59
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
..... My advice remains the same: learn to box. Getting a lot of experience in boxing will not only teach you how a boxer would deal with it, but you will have enough realistic experience with boxing to find ways to apply your other training (ie aikido) to defending against it. Simply thinking of counters to stuff isn't going to work.
That is good advice, but what's "plan B" for the Aikidoka who, for whatever reason, doesn't avail himself or herself of that opportunity?
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Old 11-03-2004, 11:27 PM   #60
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
Michael,

Good post, sounds like you and I are on the same page. I've also been supplementing my training and getting a different perspective.

Chris
Thanks.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:03 AM   #61
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
It is one of the atemi used in the mainline kata of Daito ryu. So there is also a firm connection to aikido.

RT
Hi Ron,
In what context do they do this one in Daito Ryu? Also, what is the striking surface when they do it?

George S. Ledyard
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Old 11-04-2004, 07:56 AM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Boxing type punches

If you check out Kondo Sensei's book and video, one of the techniques in ikkajo uses it. I believe it might be in response to a side strike, you enter and atemi with the blade of the hand to the spot we are talking about (for me that's about a 3 inch surface space between the base of the little finger and the bottom of the hand), cutting out on uke's stiking hand, then with your striking hand control the shoulder and 'change the feet'. Very nice sweep Especially if uke is already woozy from the strike. You can also use a strike to the solar plexus for frequent safe practice. I may be confusing two different kata here...its been a while since I trained Daito ryu, and unfortunately, aikido has me mixing and matching a bit much for classical kata training (well, as far as that style of training goes...mixing and matching with correct principles has its advantages too).

Also, you should understand that this is information already publicly available...open seminars and books are only one level of training, and often the best information is reserved for insiders...

Ron

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Old 11-05-2004, 02:19 PM   #63
Chris Birke
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Re: Boxing type punches

*hits himself on the side of the neck experimentally*

Edit: do not do a google image search for "carotid nerve" while eating lunch.

Last edited by Chris Birke : 11-05-2004 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 11-07-2004, 09:23 AM   #64
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Re: Boxing type punches

Okay, I'll admit that I've tried hitting myself in the side of the neck a couple of times also, but certainly not very hard. I've also been the recipient of a "shock and lock" in class and I can see where striking a nerve cluster combined with the carotid would take out the guy as I've had the room darken instantly on me.

I'm also a big believer in atemi and I'm cross training to further develop my atemi. The guys working with me are teaching me to tuck my chin into the shoulder on the side of the punch particularly on a jab.

What I'm having a hard time with is this:

If I have managed to avoid getting my bell rung by this "boxer" type bad guy and, I've managed to close the distance and entered in past his punching range; it seems like trying to hit a very small target on the neck of a moving opponent is still a very low percentage shot.

Chris
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Old 11-08-2004, 07:13 AM   #65
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Boxing type punches

Against a boxer's style of attack it may well be...There are also kata that combine elements of the strike descibed with a "closed" iriminage type of throw where you use the large joint of the thumb instead of the hand blade, grab your own fingers, throw to the ground at your feet while maintaining the hold and control the opponant on the ground. Even if you miss the precise spot, as long as you off-balance the attacker with your movement, you are in an excellent position.

Personally, I rarely talk about pressure points, etc, because each person is a little different...you can never *count* on hitting specific targets on someone who is moving and hitting back. But if you do everything else correctly, the targets can often present themselves...combined with proper unbalancing, strikes like the one described do have their place. In the first technique I described, the entry and off-balancing is paramount...then its up to you to place the strike as accurately as possible. George's method of using as large a striking surface as possible is a good one...

Ron

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Old 11-08-2004, 11:01 AM   #66
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Re: Boxing type punches

Ron,

I'm right there with you on this one! Once I'm in that close I'm all for taking balance and breaking their posture.

Chris
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Old 11-08-2004, 04:19 PM   #67
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Re: Boxing type punches

Hey Ron,

Your closed iriminage idea reminds me of a similar technique that I do after entering against jabs and closing to right next to the striker. After breaking balance and moving in for aigamae ate (iriminage to other folks), instead of grabbing my fingers though, I switch to a position where I'm behind the striker, wrapping my arm around his neck and stepping quickly back and dropping my hips towards the floor to have him in a rear naked strangle hold.

Your post just reminded me of that, same entry I think.

Just some thoughts.
LC

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Old 11-09-2004, 07:37 AM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Boxing type punches

Sounds like the entries are very similar. There is another technique where once you are on the ground in the rear naked (that sounds so funky) you lock your ankles in against uke's thighs and recline backwards....can be quite excruciating, and takes uke's mind off of fighting the choke...

Ron

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Old 11-09-2004, 11:12 AM   #69
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Sounds like the entries are very similar. There is another technique where once you are on the ground in the rear naked (that sounds so funky) you lock your ankles in against uke's thighs and recline backwards....can be quite excruciating, and takes uke's mind off of fighting the choke...

Ron
Ouch!

Got that one in Judo once. Also tried it in BJJ training. Very nice lock. Also works well if you can trap their hands next to their body with your legs when you lock them in so their hands are pinned to their sides and they're just helpless, even if they do roll around.

LC

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Old 11-09-2004, 01:26 PM   #70
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Re: Boxing type punches

boxing type punches. I dont know, what about Drunking Boxing kung-fu style. You guys think it would be any chance against an aikido Student.
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Old 11-09-2004, 01:38 PM   #71
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Miguel Angel wrote:
... what about Drunking Boxing kung-fu style. You guys think it would be any chance against an aikido Student.
Nope. The aikido student would counter with Drunken Aikido and emerge victorious. He may still go to jail for 40 years but he'd be victorious none the less

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 11-09-2004, 02:31 PM   #72
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Boxing type punches

The really funny thing, Bronson, is that I don't even have to click on the link to know what its linking too!

Ron

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Old 11-12-2004, 05:55 PM   #73
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
That is good advice, but what's "plan B" for the Aikidoka who, for whatever reason, doesn't avail himself or herself of that opportunity?
I don't know enough about aikido to answer that. Hopefully something that doesn't rely on a list of specific movements in order, as "counters" like that rarely work. Sparring with a boxer will allow you to learn to 'flow' with the opponent, and constantly improvise and change tactics.

I know that sounds weird, but I can't think of any other way to describe it. A complicated "counter" isn't very reliable, while a useful set of tools (whether they are footwork, high percentage strikes, blocks, etc) and experience fighting against boxers will help a lot.
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Old 11-12-2004, 10:13 PM   #74
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
I don't know enough about aikido to answer that. Hopefully something that doesn't rely on a list of specific movements in order, as "counters" like that rarely work ....
That's why I didn't get into specific counters but instead outlined some principles. I agree that cross-training in Western Boxing would be the best option; short of that, here are some Things to Remember. All of which is kind of irellevant because it sounds like the original poster was doing just that -- boxing AND Aikido. But there you are.
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