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Old 08-15-2004, 07:11 AM   #26
paw
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote:
The boxer is a striker but his sphere of strength is the same as anyone elses. .... You have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei).
A boxer is conditioned to deliver and receive strikes and as Ron pointed out in his post, boxers are quite content to work in the clinch. I am skeptical that an aikidoist would be better at delivering atemi at distance or from the clinch better than a boxer unless the aikidoist was also a better boxer. As such, I wouldn't be inclined to adopt that as a general strategy.

Personally, I've seen big entering movements, irimi nage, o soto gari, etc... be more successful. Lynn mentioned that briefly in his post.

In any case, YMMV.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-17-2004, 09:38 PM   #27
CNYMike
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote:
What would you do against, short, jabbing, boxer type punches? I'm thinking of taking up Aikido, but I may do some boxing too so I can counter this. What would you do if you can't draw them in? Does Aikido have simple blocks?
A jab is a speed shot, not a power shot, so the best bet would be to stick to it and follow it back. Both Pentjak Silat Serak and Francis Fong's version of Wing Chun appy this principle, so it is worth thinking about. Be mindful of the rear hand, and remember a jab/hook with the lead hand is possible.

Cross training in boxing and aikido is a good idea. Adding Filipino Kali to the mix, if possible, would be even better as the emtpy hand section already combines striking and grappling.

Hormat ...

Mas Mike

Last edited by CNYMike : 08-17-2004 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:11 PM   #28
M G
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Re: Boxing type punches

At K1 a good boxer fought a poor kickboxer, guess what the kickboxer won.
Just break his leg at the side of his knee, (most) boxers are only familiair whith handwork.
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:34 PM   #29
Chris Birke
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Re: Boxing type punches

"At K1 a good boxer fought a poor kickboxer, guess what the kickboxer won.
Just break his leg at the side of his knee, (most) boxers are only familiair whith handwork."

So, if you can jab you can't kick and vice versa?

//

To counter the jab, learn the timing on it by sparring. Follow up with any number of techniques, from a simple cross counter to an entering throw. The timing will more complicated than the technique because its so varied.

Ultimately this is a basic concept, and you a good teacher will be able to teach you, and then let you implement what you trained. If you ask "how do I counter a jab" you should also be asking "where is a competent and complete teacher in my area" because the latter is a lot more valuable.
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Old 08-18-2004, 02:16 PM   #30
Lachlan Kadick
 
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Re: Boxing type punches

buy your time by deflecting the jabs, letting yourself remain loose until you see an opening or chance of any sufficient kind.

Think big, Live humbly.
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Old 08-18-2004, 02:38 PM   #31
Greg Jennings
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Hey Greg,

That tech you outlined above sounds very very similar to something I learnt from Mark Barlow in Akayama Ryu.
Well, imagine that! Birds of a feather and all...

I actually spent quite a bit of time in my youth boxing, wrestling and then full-contact kick boxing under rules that allowed take downs.

I was 6'2" and wrestled in the 132 lb class my senior year of high school. I was obviously NOT good in a clinch with a guy that was shorter and much strong than me.

So, I developed a good shoot. I've caught many, many people with a single or double-leg.

It's straight-forward, but it's slower than a punch. It therefore needs to be set up well. A little "mental kuzushi" by suckering the boxing into thinking he sees what is familiar to him goes a long way.

YMMV,

Greg Jennings
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Old 08-18-2004, 03:01 PM   #32
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Mark Tennenhouse wrote:
The leg tackle requires you to lower your head too much.
The low-leg drive is a favorite technique of many of the Japanese NHB players but isn't seen much otherwise. It's quite effective but has to be transitioned to correctly.

I do it slightly differently from the basic low-leg takedown. I like to hook my inside hand on the outside of the knee and put my outside hand on the inside of their shin and wrench to the inside.

It plays to their tendency to go down face-first, hence giving you their back.

I then hold onto the leg and overhook it from the outside to inside with my inside leg.

And, to tie it back into aikido, I've done the same throw often from hanmi handachi.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 08-18-2004, 09:48 PM   #33
CNYMike
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
So, if you can jab you can't kick and vice versa?
Yeah, Thai Boxers might beg to differ on that point.
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:12 PM   #34
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Re: Boxing type punches

I've had some experience with boxing situations. I find that two rules stick out in my head when I get asked questions about applied boxing:
1. Boxing jabs never committed attacks; they are designed to be quick and deft.
2. Boxing has been around for a long time; I am sure if there was a "block" from jabs,hooks, whatever, someone would have found it by now.

That said, my reply is usually: "Aikido works because the attack is committed and sincere. A boxing jab is not a committed attack. But, you can spoil boxing-type jabs (and power jabs, uppercuts, and crosses) by being patient. Rules dictate that boxers must fight each other; we don't have such rules. I don't entertain that a good fighter can block or catch punches from another good fighter. Patience is a good defense - let the jabs slow down, let frustration force bad punches. Then do aikido." Sometimes, we don't have time though, which is another question.

Muhammad Ali (the best fighter I ever saw) used this tactic allot. He let his opponents throw many more punches, get frustrated, then he would unload. George Foreman (in his prime) did the same, usually taking the hits, but with the same result. Frazier... the list goes on. Boxing is a great tool to watch fighting trends, because it has been recorded for many years.
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:57 PM   #35
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Machiel Giesing wrote:
At K1 a good boxer fought a poor kickboxer, guess what the kickboxer won.
There are also examples to the contrary. In K1, fighters have neutralized kicking by simply closing the distance.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-23-2004, 04:10 PM   #36
CNYMike
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
..... Boxing has been around for a long time; I am sure if there was a "block" from jabs,hooks, whatever, someone would have found it by now....
Western boxing as it is now is derived from Filipino boxing, aka Panantukan, and they have "blocks" against those punches. Usually involves parrying with one hand and striking with the other.
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:14 PM   #37
Usagi
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Re: Boxing type punches

1. Jabs can be extremely powerful (i've seen people being knocked unconscious by jabs);
2. AiKiDo doens't necessarily needs commited attacks, as long as the aikidoka possess good kokyu.
3. AiKiDo isn't about fighting, but about avoiding unnecessary violence.

The point about jabs isn't really about their speed, but about maai.

Unless your are talking about "Giant Warrior Dai Leon"(from japanese series Jaspion), all human beings approach first and send the jab out nanoseconds later.

Even throught nanoseconds may sound like little time to work, its more then enough.

Have in mind that jabs:

1. always aim to the face;
2. they almost always recoil (to use the spining movement of the waist to give power to the straight punch).

Keep this points in mind and, when a boxer starts to wave in front of you react to his APPROACH, not to his jab.

How to respond? Move your face slightly to the side (any side) and grab his face.

A grabing hand is faster then a jabing hand (which one you use to avoid objects thrown to your face?), as jabs recquire shoulder motion for cocking action.

If you prepare yourself to grab his face in the minute he gets into your grabing range your arm will ocupy the center line before his jab, thus parrying it.

Once you have your hand into his face, scratch his eyes.

Boxers usually don't care for hands touching their faces, they worry about punchs, so the "scratching eyes" will work.

Also, your hand will make easy for you to feel his motion and avoid the straight punch that comes after the jab.

Keep pressing him with "touching hands" (eyes, inside nostrils, etc...) and soon he will be wanting to move out of your range.

How to train that? Slap attacks to the forehead.

Either one or sequences of two or more slaps to the forehead simulate well a sequence of jabs to the face. Just be careful in your attacks to the jab-launcher (very easy for a grabing hand to go too hard on the nose).

This whole concept is Kiri otoshi from ItToRyu (cut down your enemy's cut).

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and i- i took the one less traveled by,- and that has made all the diference!"
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Old 08-28-2004, 01:46 AM   #38
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Re: Boxing type punches

Man, what is it about boxing and aikido topics? They seem to popup regularly and go on forever. I wouldn't contribute to this thread except that I see some weird stuff being posted that I want to question.

- jabs aren't always to the face, they can be to the body. Picky I know

- there are jabs and jabs. Some are quick flicking shots, some are meant to snap your head back, some are meant to take your head off.

- there have been always been blocks and parries in boxing. Boxers do block, catch, slip, dodge each other's jabs all the time. They just know that they can't always successfully do so.

- It seems a little strong to say that Western boxing is "derived" from Filipino panantukan. There is a lot of speculation about Filipino influence on boxing, but I don't think anyone seriously believes that boxing comes straight down from panantukan.

- being "patient" against an attack won't buy you much unless it is not hurting you, i.e., you must be defending against it somehow. If you are doing so by backing up and staying away, why aren't you running?

- "have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei). This over time will draw the boxer outside of their normal boxing mode" Dude, this *is* the boxer's normal boxing mode.

I just wonder what it is about boxing that seems to fascinate aikido people, kinda like the cobra is said to fascinate small birds Look, a boxer is nothing special, it is just someone who practices real hard to hit other people who are hitting back. If you want to know how to defeat one, look at how they train, practice against one.

As usual Ellis Amdur has a great article related to this topic.

=wl

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Old 08-28-2004, 08:48 AM   #39
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Re: Boxing type punches

I think the fascination with boxing comes from the fact that if you get into a fight on the street there will be boxing type punches thrown. So in reality this is an "aikido and street effectiveness" question.
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Old 08-28-2004, 10:35 AM   #40
Usagi
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Willy Lee wrote:
- jabs aren't always to the face, they can be to the body. Picky I know =wl
But, without sounding arrogant, what does a jab to any other target that is not the face is useful for?

A JAB is a snap punch, a slap given with the fist (if you don't agree, it is because you didn't visualized) .

To any target that is not the face, it is useless.

AND dangerous as it exposes your face.

The functions of the jab are:

a) disturb your opponent;
b) obstruct his vision, thus it must be to the face;
c) hit him to cause openings.

The only other targets that come to mind are the throat and the eyes, i.e. face area.

And as mentioned, the reason why we worry about Boxers is because they have the best punches

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and i- i took the one less traveled by,- and that has made all the diference!"
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Old 08-29-2004, 01:53 PM   #41
willy_lee
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Brian Langille wrote:
I think the fascination with boxing comes from the fact that if you get into a fight on the street there will be boxing type punches thrown. So in reality this is an "aikido and street effectiveness" question.
There may well be punches thrown -- unless you are in a fight with someone who has boxing training, they are probably not boxing punches. Do you really think that people with no training automatically make crisp, snappy, precisely targeted jabs, to your face or anywhere?

Renato, I said I was being picky

=wl

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Old 08-29-2004, 09:58 PM   #42
Usagi
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Re: Boxing type punches

Not picky, sensitive and reasonable

You are right, not all assailants are going to be "Gold gloves"...

At least in my home town, the most usual attack i've seen is what we call "dog killer", which is a punch given with a huge arc (think of a baseball player hiting a home run without the bat and using only one hand).

It is stupid and very easy to deal with (close in, atemi do the face and pretend it was a yokomenuchi), but it is the "Real deal"...

The reason why I personally work with jabs is because they are harder to deal with; if you can deal with them, you can deal with most anything else...

And, althought boxers are very good in dealing with punches and clinchs, they are not very good in dealing with low kicks and parryings.

When the gloves are taken it becomes a lot more easier to dodge their punches..but it takes practice.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and i- i took the one less traveled by,- and that has made all the diference!"
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Old 08-30-2004, 12:34 PM   #43
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Re: Boxing type punches

I think that are several questions being asked just since my last comment, I don't know which one to address...

To me, a boxer is a western boxer that fights in a ring. Jabs are a short, directed punch to the face, shoulders, and maybe to the body (many body blows are short hooks that reach around defense); they are characterized by a unidirectional movement, usually with a recoil. They are designed to distract and spoil your stance. The strength of the punch in proportional to the fighter and skill. Fighters are fascinated with them because a boxer's sole training is an athletic endeavor to hit and block/protect.

Other boxing styles (Fillipino, Brazilian, Indian, East Asian) are slightly different, each with their own rules. Its hard to draw comparison when the style keeps changing for argument's sake.

In the truest sense of street fighting, the question begs a different argument. If the question changed from "how do you defend a boxing-style jab?" to "How do you fight a boxer?", there are good comments throughout this thread. In an applied setting, I would agree with earlier comments that the chances are slim you will ever encounter a proficient boxer, or kick boxer, or karateka, or judoka, etc.


Also, Willy Lee wrote:

"- being "patient" against an attack won't buy you much unless it is not hurting you, i.e., you must be defending against it somehow. If you are doing so by backing up and staying away, why aren't you running?"

But remember, "patience" is not a length of time, but rather a period of opportunity.
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Old 08-31-2004, 10:07 PM   #44
mgreen
 
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Re: Boxing type punches

baseball bat?
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Old 10-29-2004, 02:37 PM   #45
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Re: Boxing type punches

Sorry this post is long, but there is a lot I wanted to reply to.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
A jab is a speed shot, not a power shot, so the best bet would be to stick to it and follow it back.
Following a jab back is hard and not a high percentage tactic. Like you said, jabs are designed to be fast and set up combos. They go straight out and straight back in on the same line, and don't follow through their target. Jabs don't always even make contact; a flinch is all the boxer needs.

If you try to follow a jab back, you are going to walk into a cross or hook. My solution would be to learn to box. Boxing footwork and movements (slipping punches, bobbing and weaving, ducking, etc.) are all useful to know.

Quote:
Machiel Giesing wrote:
Just break his leg at the side of his knee, (most) boxers are only familiair whith handwork.
Breaking someone's knee isn't as easy as you might think. People get kicked in the knee with full power roundhouses in kickboxing events all the time (a low thai roundhouse is aimed at the thigh, and sometimes the aiming is off- in short, knees get hit) and the knee doesn't get broken.

Breaking a knee might be possible if the person is standing with all their weight on the leg you are hitting and their leg is perfectly straight, but if their knee is bent and they are moving around (boxers use a lot of footwork) then breaking the knee isn't very likely.

To understand what I'm talking about, get two boards (the kind used for breaking in TKD, karate, etc). Have a training partner hold one board with a hand on each side. Hit it and break it. It's pretty easy it is being secured at each side (kind of like when all your body weight is on one leg, so you your leg acts as a board but the "hands" are the ground and your body weight). Now have him throw the board in the air and try to break. It's going to be harder because it isn't secured. It's probably going to move when you hit it because their is nothing holding it down.

Quote:
Lachlan Kadick wrote:
buy your time by deflecting the jabs, letting yourself remain loose until you see an opening or chance of any sufficient kind.
Deflecting jabs is a waste of energy. They aren't going to knock you out. Just raise your guard and absorb the blow on your forearms or fists or learn to slip punches (moving your head and sometimes your body off the line of the attack while moving into the opponent).

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
Muhammad Ali (the best fighter I ever saw) used this tactic allot. He let his opponents throw many more punches, get frustrated, then he would unload. George Foreman (in his prime) did the same, usually taking the hits, but with the same result. Frazier... the list goes on. Boxing is a great tool to watch fighting trends, because it has been recorded for many years.
Boxing matches last a long time, whereas street fights last a few seconds. You won't have time to let the opponent get tired. You have to run away or do enough damage that they won't be able to chase you, then run. Staying on the defensive is bad in a street fight. Most "reality based" styles advocate attacking (senshido calls it a "predator to prety" shift when you turn the other guy from predator to prey by going on the offensive) hard and fast so you can escape.

Also, your examples were two great boxers defending agaisnt boxers. Ali was one of the best boxers ever, and George Foreman was good. They were better than those guys at boxing. They were also in a boxing ring, expecting the opponent to use boxing. Most aikidoka aren't necessarily good boxers, so that strategy won't work. On the street you probably won't know that they are a boxer, and you won't know what to expect.

Watch some MMA fights. They aren't as "real" as street fights, but a lot of the same things can be seen. You don't see many people just letting their opponent tire themselves out while standing. They go in hard and fast and try to get it over with, and that's how it happens in a street fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Western boxing as it is now is derived from Filipino boxing, aka Panantukan, and they have "blocks" against those punches. Usually involves parrying with one hand and striking with the other.
Do you have any evidence of this? I've never heard this before, and it doesn't really make sense. Boxing (in a different form) was around in ancient Greece in the Olympics. Since then it's changed a lot (with the introduction of groin cups, mouth pieces, regulation gloves, and the Marquess de Queensbury rules).

Quote:
Renato Alcantra wrote:
A grabing hand is faster then a jabing hand (which one you use to avoid objects thrown to your face?), as jabs recquire shoulder motion for cocking action.
You don't "cock" a jab. You throw it out in a straight line at the target and bring it back quickly. Action is faster than reaction. If you and I fought, and I threw the jab, I would know when I'm going to do it. You wouldn't. You would have to wait until I did it to react.

Also, how are you so sure that moving to the side and grabbing the face would be easy? Boxers train to move to the side when jabbed at (ever heard of slipping?) and still get hit by jabs. The difference between an average aikidoka and a boxer is that boxers train all the time to defend against jabs and have a better chance of noticing them. If you've never sparred against a boxer or someone else who uses jabs, you probably won't even recognize it.

Basing your entire defense against a jab around knowing they are going to jab isn't going to work. On the street, you won't know if they are a boxer. Even if you do know they are a boxer, you won't know if they are going to jab or not.

Quote:
Renato Alcantra wrote:
But, without sounding arrogant, what does a jab to any other target that is not the face is useful for?
A jab causes a reaction. If I throw a jab to the face, you will try to defend your face. If I follow a jab with a hook to the body, you will probaby be focused on defending your face and leave your body open. If I throw a jab to the body, you will drop your hands. What happens when I follow that with a cross or overhand right to the face? I have a better chance of hitting you because your hands are down.

Quote:
Renato Alcantra wrote:
And, althought boxers are very good in dealing with punches and clinchs, they are not very good in dealing with low kicks and parryings.
Parries leave your face open. When I spar with people, I hope they try to trap and parry. If they keep their hands by their face and move around, then I'm in trouble.

Quote:
Renato Alcantra wrote:
When the gloves are taken it becomes a lot more easier to dodge their punches..but it takes practice.
Not necessarily. When boxing, I can see the movements of their hands because the boxing gloves are big and red. They are pretty hard to miss. I still get hit a lot, but I see them coming. When I do MMA-style sparring (striking, grappling, etc allowed) wearing MMA gloves (small gloves that leave your fingers open so you can grapple but have a little padding over your knuckles and back of your hand), it's harder to see the punches. The gloves aren't big and red. They are small and you don't see much of the glove (you see the front of their fist which doesn't have padding on it). It makes it harder to defend agaisnt punches when they take the boxing gloves off (aside from the reasons I already listed, you can often use the boxing gloves for defense so when sparring and fighting without them it's harder).

Last edited by Pankration90 : 10-29-2004 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 10-30-2004, 12:33 PM   #46
CNYMike
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
..... If you try to follow a jab back, you are going to walk into a cross or hook ....

Oh, absolutely, absolutely! That's why I said in my other post to "Be mindful of the rear hand;" one reason for a jab to go BACK is a because a cross or a hook or something is coming OUT. I didn't get into specifics because I was explaining a principle; respondents could play with this and figure out specifics for themselves. And you also have to worry about a jab/lead hook combination.

As I noted, one of the place I got this from was Sifu Francis Fong take on Wing Chun. Sifu Francis also holds instructorships in Kali, Jun Fan/JKD, and Thai Boxing. The "follow back" strategy is one way to resolve the dilemma caused by the fact that a jab's speed will make many Wing Chun traps difficult if not impossible to apply. So what they like to do --- and I only got this explanation once five or six years ago, so I apologize for being weak on details -- is crash into the other person as they follow the jab back; you can check or snuff the other hand on the way in. (If that hand's in a low chmber, go for the shoulder.) This, IIRC, will put you into grappling range; guess where Aikido lives? Nope, Aikidoka don't grapple, but we still work that side of the street!

Quote:
My solution would be to learn to box. Boxing footwork and movements (slipping punches, bobbing and weaving, ducking, etc.) are all useful to know.
Yes, quite so, quite so. Holding rounds with focus mits is also fun in it's own way.
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:31 PM   #47
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Re: Boxing type punches

O'sensei said that speed is a necessary part of Aikido. Also he said that, without the intent of the uke, no technique is necessary.

Most short jabs made in boxing are feints in preparation for a stronger attack. Even so, usually simply backing away is the best answer, assuming you have room to do so.

You'll have to be patient and wait until a punch with real intent come forth. You'll also have to learn how to recognize such a punch and tell it apart from a feint.

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:16 PM   #48
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Re: Boxing type punches

Interesting that many of the responses to the question have drawn upon what other arts have developed.

I've seen a few comments about how boxer's aren't used to dealing with kicks (which I agree with) and just take their legs out. How many of you folks train in aikido dojos were much time is spend developing your kicking skills to the point where you can let loose with a string, balanced kick to a moving targt that's trying to hit you? I can't say that I've been to any dojos or seminars where this subject was covered. We did some of this training for a while but then the class moved on to other concepts and the atemi training has gone by the wayside.

Chris
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:56 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Boxing type punches

Quote:
Rob Cunningham wrote:
You'll have to be patient and wait until a punch with real intent come forth. You'll also have to learn how to recognize such a punch and tell it apart from a feint.
Or learn how to draw out the attack...

Every time I back away from a boxer, I get pounded...

RT

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:06 PM   #50
photokami
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Re: Boxing type punches

attacker uses a left jab
parry the jab
step in deep with left leg to the attackers left side
secure attackers shoulder with left hand
left heel hooking kick to small of back
kosoto gari
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