Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-03-2004, 06:54 AM   #1
stern9631
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

If a breakfall allows us to protect ourselves after being compromised in a confrontation then how do we protect ourselves while on the ground (on your back and maybe not facing the opponent) while attacks may still be coming in?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2004, 07:45 AM   #2
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Well,that presumes you're training in a dojo and art designed for real-world combat efficiency.

Most budo, today, don't fit that description. However, that doesn't negate the value of budo training to being able to defend yourself, it just points toward keeping your perspective intact.

Training in most budo dojo, is geared for the dojo. There is some variation, but generalyl speaking, the attacks, responses and ukemi for budo training are quite effective and relevant within that setting.

However, if you're seeking combat efficiency, you'll probably need to look elsewhere.

Now, that said, to address your question about ukemi: an it's a good question, one that shows you're thinking about both sides of the nage-uke interaction.

Some systems do teach what happens after you take the fall. Even some aikido dojo, delve into this.

Obviously, taking the big roll sets you up to turn and face your thrower, but the fact is, in some cases, you won't be able to, or may opt not to roll out due to situational or environmental factors.

And quite frankly, if your attacker is savvy enough to actually throw you, you may not be given opportunity to roll at all.

So, what happens when you hit the ground? Years ago, a guy I knew in the SCA told me about teaching aspiring sword and shield fighters the art of defensive dying. Apparently, in the scrum of melee, it's not unusual for a downed fighter to get trampled. They teach folks to curl up, cover head, not explose soft bits.

This is one option, and similar one I've taught in personal combatives and self defense courses.

It is passive, and reactive, however. Other systems of combat approach the matter more proactively.

Within the system I teach, breakfalls are taught at beginner level, rolls later. Students learn to hit the ground, re-orient (feet towards thrower) immediately, and then prepare to engage from that position or get up and move. The methodology is codified in our kata and practiced in basics in the dojo.

I won't go into specifics and bore you, but it basically entails redirecting some of the energy of the fall and controlling your contact with the ground.

The other option we teach, at later levels, is to take your thrower with you, if possible, and re-engage on the ground, taking control of initiative, timing and combative distance on the way down.

Going to ground is always a last resort with us, but we do address the possibility and train toward recovery once placed in that scenario.

Chuck

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2004, 08:10 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,709
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

IMHO, two simple ways.

Use some of the recoil energy to roll up a bit so your legs protect the body and the feet are aimed to kick.

Use some of the recoil eneregy from the slap out to place the hands up to protect the head, grab, or strike.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2004, 08:24 AM   #4
David_francis
 
David_francis's Avatar
Dojo: St Ives Aikidojo
Location: Cambridge
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 41
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Or even easier, backwards roll from the momentum and get straight back up again lol.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 07:59 AM   #5
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Dont stay on the ground or if its a particularly deadly situation and you happen to have a weapon, feign inury as you lie on the floor and use your position to draw whatever weapon you have on your person, if the attacker comes into finish you off then jump up and gut him, or whatever.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 08:56 AM   #6
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,089
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Quote:
David Francis wrote:
Or even easier, backwards roll from the momentum and get straight back up again lol.
Have you tried that with somene that is intent on following up their initial attack and is competent at doing so?

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 10:09 AM   #7
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Disclaimer: This may be a dumb question:


If you get hit really hard and are not sure where you are, (i.e. Ki Sphere collapses).

What the heck should you try to do?

1. Get up. Establish Ma'ai
2. go for the knees
3. Roll into/away from attacker


i know the answer is different everytime...But if you lose track of where you are even for a moment what to do?

My buddy in Karate said that it is this moment that teaches you alot about yourself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 10:14 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Even though I use the backward roll myself in many situations in the dojo, I'm not sure of its safety outside of the dojo. I think I'd be hesitant to use it in that kind of situation.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 11:29 AM   #9
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

I've trained where one person takes ushiro ukemi after an attacker has knocked them down, the attacker then has to chase you as you regain your footing, I have to say that a competant attacker fully intent on putting the boot in would have no difficulties doing so.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2004, 01:52 AM   #10
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

josh phillipson said:
Quote:
If you get hit really hard and are not sure where you are, (i.e. Ki Sphere collapses).
I'd have to increase the replication rate of my mitochlorians.

Sorry, The ki sphere thing tickled me. I'll behave now. (Heya Craig!).

Quote:
i know the answer is different everytime...But if you lose track of where you are even for a moment what to do?
If we're talking about actual interpersonal combat rather than in-dojo experiences here, I'll spout an aphorism:

"You will fight as you have trained."

Fact is, most budoka do not train to engage in direct, violent, close quarters combat.

Budo can teach lots of things about self defense (timing, combative engagement distance, self-possession under stress, etc), but MOST modern budo do not teach 'realistic' self defense.

There are exceptions.

An un-tested person WITH budo training will probably fare better in a violent situation than an un-tested person with no combative training at all.

However, in actual, personal, violent combat, the winner will usually be the person who is most willing to take damage in order to deliver MORE damage, and the one with the ability (physical and psychological) to withstand the effects of damage.

If you want to train for combat (and yes, there's a difference in 'combat' and 'self defense' more on that later), then you must train FOR combat. You must hit and get hit, you must experience as closely as possible, within the limits of relative safety, the stress that such activity will place on your body and mind.

Now. Can you use your aikido/jujutsu/karate for combat training? Probably. To some degree. However, understand that the combat environment (not just the place you are standing to fight, but the mental/physical effects that will kick in) is very, very different form the dojo. If you want to learn to fight in the street, you'd better be training in the street.

Learn to expand your situational awareness. Where's the curb? Where's the signpost? Where's the phone booth? Traffic? Trash in the gutter or on the sidewalk? Does your attacker have buddies? Where are they and what are they getting ready to do?

Can you take ukemi on concrete or tarmac? What happens when you try to roll out or breakfall, and halfway through find the curb, or a broken bottle, or a bus stop bench?

Footing. What's on your feet? Prada slingbacks, Reeboks, Merrell water sandals? How's that going to affect your stance, footwork, your ability to move, pivot, engage and disengage?

What are you wearing to train for the fight? Boxing trunks, dogi, hip-hugger jeans, business suit, club clothes, winter parka and gloves? How will they affect your ability to move? Do your clothes and shoes offer any advantages or disadvantages? How can you adapt what you do to cope with those variables?

Just a few things to think about as you consider 'what would happen in a fight.'

Now, all that out o the way (and off my chest), what's the difference in combat and self defense? Some personal thoughts (and definitions):

The only reason to engage in combat is to defeat an enemy. Period. It doesn't matter who attacked who or why. Combat -- 'fighting' -- means you are intent on crushing your enemy. You identify a threat or a target, you engage the threat or target and you don't quit until one of you cannot continue. That's combat.

The dichotomy between 'fighting' and self defense is not clear to many folks, I think, and the points along the spectrum that separates them ought to be explored a bit more deeply by folks who are teaching or training with an eye toward self defense.

In some ways, combat is easier for some ... it's easy to enter that mindset (it's built into to all of us, deep down, and some of live with it closer to the surface for one reason or another).

Some of us study budo to learn to tame that particular beast, and find alternatives to unleashing it. Budo can be a great tool with which to explore those options.

Self defense, on the other hand, is survival. You don't have to defeat an enemy, you have to rapidly identify the danger, survive the initial encounter and escape as fast as possible.

There are other variables in there, and that's a bit simplistic ...

Are there innocent companions, loved ones, passersby to protect? CAN you protect them?

Does your attacker need protecting (is that person competent and rational or is he or she acting due to mental impairment or illness -- you will likely respond to drunken Uncle Bob differently than you will to a stranger trying to cop a feel or grab your wallet by force)?

Where are the exit points? How committed is the attacker? What are you willing to sacrifice to escape?

And there's also that pesky situational awareness thing.

Self defense might mean handing over your wallet and watch and going on your way. It might also mean full-on engagement to defend your life or the life of a loved one.

Sidebar:
Philosophical question: If you maim or kill an attacker to protect a loved one (your child or spouse, say), haven't you exercised loving protection?

Now, getting back to the question josh asked:

"But if you lose track of where you are even for a moment what to do?"

My short answer is this: You will react in a manner to which you have trained.

Quote:
My buddy in Karate said that it is this moment that teaches you alot about yourself.
I'd have to agree with him.

Chuck

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2004, 04:55 AM   #11
David_francis
 
David_francis's Avatar
Dojo: St Ives Aikidojo
Location: Cambridge
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 41
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

You could breakfall and backwards roll out of the situation but it depends on how quick you are really. It takes my sensei about 2 seconds to get back up so even in the unlikely event of him falling down he'd be back up before the attacker could strike again. Isn't this what we're supposed to be able to do?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2004, 05:11 AM   #12
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

David Francis said:
Quote:
... It takes my sensei about 2 seconds to get back up so even in the unlikely event of him falling down he'd be back up before the attacker could strike again.
2 seconds is a loooong time in a fight. And it goes very fast, too.

I'm afraid that your ideas presupposes a sort of ippon kumite situation (one step sparring). Most times, I suspect, if you get knocked down, your attacker is going to be right there, not waiting for you to finish the fall and get up again.

That is not to say that ippon type training (which is really the sort of thing most aikido dojo do, uke makes one attack, tori/nage responds, uke falls, they break contact, then do it again) is not without value, it does contain solid potential for teaching the basics of physical engagement in a 'safe' environment. The scenario, however, is just that, a basic-level training exercise.

Randori or jiyu waza is a better model in the dojo for that type of thing. But to fully flesh out the scenario, you must blur the roles of uke and tori/nage and allow either to attack at any time, and continually, to achieve the model, though.

Quote:
... Isn't this what we're supposed to be able to do?
In theory, and in the dojo, it works very well.

If you want to test its applicability in a 'real' situation, go out in the parking lot and try it on asphalt or gravel, and make sure the attacker follows through with full intent to continue the assault.

Chuck

Last edited by Chuck.Gordon : 08-06-2004 at 05:17 AM. Reason: to finish thoughts that got stuck ...

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2004, 08:12 AM   #13
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,709
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

IMHO, get on the mat, on your back, and figure it out.

There is not much mat work done in Aikido, But the same principles still apply to taking the direction of attack and belending with it.

In FMA/JKD we used to train on the ground will follow up attacks.

When in doubt, don't go to the head, go to the mat and figure it out. Training is the best answer.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2004, 10:22 AM   #14
stern9631
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Quote:
David Francis wrote:
You could breakfall and backwards roll out of the situation but it depends on how quick you are really. It takes my sensei about 2 seconds to get back up so even in the unlikely event of him falling down he'd be back up before the attacker could strike again. Isn't this what we're supposed to be able to do?
I know that when I am working out with my brother that he is working upstairs and downstairs almost simultaneously and constantly gaining position. I know Aikido works and that maybe MY Aikido doesn't, but I have been told to use my forearms,hands, elbows, shins, knees, and feet to protect and attack from the ground. I just find it incredible that an art that addresses hitting the ground (rolling, falling) doesn't address ground defense. Or, maybe it does and I just don't know.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2004, 12:59 AM   #15
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I just find it incredible that an art that addresses hitting the ground (rolling, falling) doesn't address ground defense.
But the other guy is supposed to hit the ground

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 05:04 PM   #16
Devon Natario
 
Devon Natario's Avatar
Dojo: Northwest Jujitsu/Coeur D'Alene, ID
Location: Coeur D'Alene
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 109
United_States
Offline
Re: Protecting yourself after a breakfall.

I study a Japanese form of Jujitsu (Shin Shin Jujitsu). To answer the initial post I have to say this:
It does depend on how you train. When you are being thrown in Aikido or most martial arts you are helping the other person train, while you yourself just learn how to fall.

In Jujitsu we learn to reverse every throw. When you reverse the throw you are basically turning their offense into your offense by reversing and getting them on the ground. This way you dont have to breakfall, roll, or sit there waiting for an attack.

I suggest touching your partner on the way down, and in your mind creating the reverse to their attack. This way at least your inner training has begun to develop. Maybe every once in awhile reverse it and say "Sorry, that was an accident." I know that sounds rude, but if you aren't training on reversals- you are losing out on self defense. Or find a partner and work on that elsewhere.

I have been studying Aikido for almost 6 months now, and I have noticed a great deal of shortfalls with ground fighting/defense, but I have noticed a great deal of greatness in using Ki and Center. I honestly do not think Aikido in itself is complete. But then again- what art is?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Proper way to Breakfall Chris Tan Training 22 04-18-2006 07:07 PM
First High Breakfall!! Woohoo!! Jeff Stallard Training 12 09-18-2004 06:00 AM
Protecting wrists wxyzabc General 8 07-07-2004 02:04 AM
protecting a third party person domidude General 23 05-22-2004 11:54 AM
to breakfall or not to breakfall.... wayback Training 22 07-29-2000 08:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:32 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate