Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-04-2004, 05:28 PM   #26
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,034
United_States
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Jorge,

I wasn't suggesting that was the end all be all of someone's reading, just what was in easy reach that might be informative to some who might be interested but not planning to become a full time seminary or graduate student. Having been baptized and confirmed in the Epsicopal Church, as a child, have since had quite a few discussions as a parishner and scientist with Epicopal priests. I know they are quite intelligent and well-read. However my examinations and reflections over decades have left me not convinced, in fact just the opposite. I respect your personal conviction in the Chicago Statement,

I hope you can respect that as a professional scientist I completely disagree with this part and many other parts of that Statement:

Quote:
WE AFFIRM that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.

WE DENY that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.
a thought...
Academic debate is only one human method of seeking out truth and there can be many reasons for why one becomes speechless.

By the way, I might mention, that my Catholic theologian friend who is now a Professor at a well known Catholic University (fluent in Greek, Latin, German and Hebrew) after reaching ikkyu in Aikido decided that Aikido was not compatible with his faith and disposed of all his budo equipment and left the dojo even though he enjoyed the practice and considered everyone there dear friends (his words). Believe me when I say I am not a stranger to very sophisticated debate on the matter. I was also left speechless by how convoluted the debate can get when someone's beliefs are at stake.

It would be a really informative debate to me in watching you debate him on the compatibility of Aikido practice with being a Christian who affirms the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy. Of course, I have no problem with you practicing Aikido and hope you continue.

with respect,

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2004, 09:30 PM   #27
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Jorge,

I wasn't suggesting that was the end all be all of someone's reading, just what was in easy reach that might be informative to some who might be interested but not planning to become a full time seminary or graduate student. Having been baptized and confirmed in the Episcopal Church, as a child, have since had quite a few discussions as a parishioner and scientist with Epic opal priests. I know they are quite intelligent and well-read. However my examinations and reflections over decades have left me not convinced, in fact just the opposite. I respect your personal conviction in the Chicago Statement,

I hope you can respect that as a professional scientist I completely disagree with this part and many other parts of that Statement:



a thought...
Academic debate is only one human method of seeking out truth and there can be many reasons for why one becomes speechless.

By the way, I might mention, that my Catholic theologian friend who is now a Professor at a well known Catholic University (fluent in Greek, Latin, German and Hebrew) after reaching ikkyu in Aikido decided that Aikido was not compatible with his faith and disposed of all his budo equipment and left the dojo even though he enjoyed the practice and considered everyone there dear friends (his words). Believe me when I say I am not a stranger to very sophisticated debate on the matter. I was also left speechless by how convoluted the debate can get when someone's beliefs are at stake.

It would be a really informative debate to me in watching you debate him on the compatibility of Aikido practice with being a Christian who affirms the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy. Of course, I have no problem with you practicing Aikido and hope you continue.

with respect,
I respect you as a scientist but the fact that as a scientist, you may not agree with the Chicago statement is alright. I know lots of scientists that do affirm it. That's why I believe that we as humans do not ultimately possess the ability to consider every factor that comes into play into determining absolute truth. Even the most intelligent and educated among us are finite. The fact remains that faith does play a part at some point. The landing points between the chasm of faith and what I can discover empirically are close enough in my world that I can make the leap. In your world and journey, those points are too far to make that faith leap and I respect that. I don't ask everyone to believe as I do. I ask others to walk their own journey and follow their path. I respect that path-whether it's you, O Sensei, or your Catholic friend. Having said that, I will still peacefully assert my own beliefs that have satisfied my own investigations. I only commented in that last post because there were a lot of suggestions and statements made by you and Chuck that were going unanswered and I felt compelled to express that those websites and books don't prove to me that your arguments are correct. Please forgive me if by mentioning the Chicago Statement, I appeared to be doing the same thing. I in no way hoped to convince anyone by that Statement. In fact, it is not an apologetic but simply a statement of belief.
I consider myself a flexible, non judgmental kind of person when it come to theological debate. I have conservative beliefs but I don't apply them in a censorious way. I have been great friends for a number of years with an Old Catholic priest who practices Buddhism and knows more about it than any human I know. At times, he has drifted into agnosticism and perhaps even into atheism but we have remained the best of friends. As a matter of fact, he has been a better friend to me than most Christians I know. I will never agree with him but I will always try to understand his point of view and I will always love him for being so kind to me when I needed a friend some years ago.
By the way, when I said they were left speechless, I meant that literally. Dr. Bahnsen would take the debate on their territory but sometimes, his opponents would fail to show. His standard practice was to stand at the podium without saying a word facing the empty lectern of his rival and after two minutes, look at his watch and say, "I rest my case!" They used to say of Dr. Bahnsen that he was so intelligent, that he could win a debate, even when he was wrong.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 01:32 PM   #28
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,034
United_States
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
They used to say of Dr. Bahnsen that he was so intelligent, that he could win a debate, even when he was wrong.
A pervasive problem among academics.

I have no problem with what your are saying for yourself.
However I do have a problem with scientists holding such beliefs acting on them in the arena of education. Aside from that, I am curious because I have met thousands of reputable scientists and I can't recall a single one ever professing to have beliefs anywhere near what is laid out in the Chicago Statement. A caveat, I don't consider "Creation Scientists" to be reputable. Most scientists I know would take a far harder stance than I would put myself and I have never heard an intelligent convincing argument in response to some one with a truly deep current knowledge of biology.

Last edited by kironin : 08-05-2004 at 01:37 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 02:03 PM   #29
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
I have not had the time or facility to find other examples of the "Word of God" other than the Bible.
Thanks for the response.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 02:07 PM   #30
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

There is no doubt that the overwhelming majority support views such as you have but there are in fact lots of scientists among the millions and millions of Christians that support the statement. Do they separate faith from science? I would say that they have to hold faith over science because again, we lack the ability to completely prove every tenant of our belief, scientist or believer. People of faith including scientists that are conservative Christians understand that some things require faith but that doesn't mean that faith has to be unreasonable or without reason. Again, if the jumping point in the chasm is close enough, faith has reason but for others, their information and knowledge is different and the points are too far. My statement is that there are lots of scientists that do support the statement and that is in fact true. I don't have time to qualify the new question of "what is a scientist" because I am getting dizzy from the circle we're running.
By the way, the guy from that service we were talkng about at dinner the other day came by our school this morning but I didn't sign up with him. Maybe I can get back with you on that in the next couple of weeks.
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 02:22 PM   #31
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

PS I did want to clarify that I didn't say that I mixed budo and Christianity, I said that I am a Christan and I practice budo. That is because I am able to practice budo in such a way that my personal convictions of what a Christan is does not violate my conscience. I guess its time to lay off though because I want to continue as I always have. In the ten years I have been in Aikido, I can honestly say I have never discussed these subjects for more than a minute or two with any person and if I did, my objective was to get off the subject as quick as I could because when I go to the dojo, its for another reason. I was just making the point that I'm still a good believing Christian, minding my own business when I'm in there. It doesn't matter to me if someone thinks I'm contradicting myself. I have been very happy reading, thinking about, and trying to practice budo and I see no inherent contradiction between that and my Christian faith.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 06:18 PM   #32
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,034
United_States
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

To be human is to be full of contradictions. All okay if empathy and humility are present. It would probably be nearly impossible to remove the influence of my Judeo-Christian upbringing on my practice of budo nor remove the influence in how I judge various aspects of it. So I think
mixing has to happen if only in what you are or are not attracted to in budo. I would say it probably is the reason that there remains tension in my mind over the reasons why I practice Iaido. That tension for me is creative and in itself probably drives my interest by forcing me to face my contradictions. (such also arises in Aikido and Systema)

on that other matter, sure give me a call, or do you want me to call you ?

best,

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 10:15 PM   #33
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
on that other matter, sure give me a call, or do you want me to call you ?
We ought to meet for a working dinner over in the Heights at either Spanish Flower, Andy's Kitchen, Hunan Bo or King Biscuit (take your choice) one of these weekends so I can get the information from you.You can call or email to set things up.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2004, 02:58 AM   #34
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
United_States
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Who was it said: The mark of an evolved mind is the ability to hold and examine two entirely opposite points of view in mind and not go mad ...

Jorge, I wish more Christians (hell, more people of any faith) were more like you. And yes, more atheists, too. If an idea, any idea, cannot withstand critical examination, it should be discarded ...

This is why I do not say, "Dump religion." -- rather, I say "Religion must evolve."

Chuck

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2004, 08:18 AM   #35
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Who was it said: The mark of an evolved mind is the ability to hold and examine two entirely opposite points of view in mind and not go mad ...

Jorge, I wish more Christians (hell, more people of any faith) were more like you. And yes, more atheists, too. If an idea, any idea, cannot withstand critical examination, it should be discarded ...

This is why I do not say, "Dump religion." -- rather, I say "Religion must evolve."

Chuck
Thank Chuck, I appreciate your comments. My pastor and mentor (Jack Carter) in Corpus Christi, Texas has been a great influence in my life. I met him when I was in High School in 1973 and over the last 30 years , I have enjoyed being his student, parishioner and from 1987 to 1992, his associate in the ministry. He was a man who taught me to be afraid of no new idea, never to reject anything until you had thoroughly investigated it,and to dialog and defend your position vigorously without taking anything personally. He also taught me that whenever you study anything that you cannot answer, contradict, or refute, you must change your mind immediately. That last point has been both his strength and his weakness. Over the years, he has adopted many "new positions, taught that to others and then later had to revise what he taught after having studied a better argument!. His parishioners just hated that and would often leave his church saying that no matter what he taught now, they were staying with his old position! I always saw that as his great strength though because it showed me how intensely honest with himself he was. It also showed me the weakness of some of his students who would adopt a position only because of their respect for his scholarship, not because they had studied the issue. Jack always said that on his tombstone, they were going to write, "But then again, on the other hand...."
By the way, he also taught me not to speak when I had not sufficiently researched my position and never to be afraid to say,"I'm not sure" and "I don't know." Every time I visit Jack, he is usually reading ten to fifteen books at the same time. He has a two story home filled with books from floor to ceiling and I always go to his house just to see what I should be reading. Jack is a man who has no enemies in his heart and has the most open mind of anyone I have ever known. He would give a stranger the shirt off his back and many times, when worked with him, I would have to run to answer the door before he did because if a homeless or needy person came to the door and he answered it, I would catch him giving them all the money in his wallet!
When you hear me, you are in part, listening to his voice in me. He was like a father to me. I miss him very much.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2005, 02:25 AM   #36
Michael Cardwell
Dojo: Snake River Aikido
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Michael Cardwell said:

Heya Michael. Snake River Dojo. What a great name! Where's that?

Chuck
Hey Chuck, sorry I never replied to your question, I must have overlooked it. I was just looking through some old posts when I noticed it. So if you're still posting on Aikiweb here goes.

Snake River Aikido is located in Idaho Falls, Idaho. A long ways away from Germany I know, but if you ever make it to the states look us up. (And now for the rest of my shameless plug for the dojo I train a.). My sensei is Frank Roberto, and we are affiliated with the CAA, under Duran sensei. Come one, come all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2005, 04:31 PM   #37
Bill Danosky
 
Bill Danosky's Avatar
Dojo: BN Yoshinkan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
United_States
Offline
Re: For those who doubt??!!

I have a fundamentalist friend who very firmly believes that the Earth is only 6,000 years old because (I think) the book of Genesis lists the number of generations between Adam and such and such.

In his belief, for example, any fossils currently existing were originally made as fossils and placed in the ground by God. Etcetera.

I do support anyone's right to believe and have faith, but having said that, I find it frustrating that an intelligent person can cover their ears and eyes and absolutely refuse to hear any evidence to the contrary. I'm pretty sure I'm not carrying out Satan's work and I feel that the progress of our understanding is worth the danger we face spiritually.

However- since we've bristled at another's attempt to convert us- I wonder now if I'm just as guilty of trying to change the beliefs of my friend because to me they are ridiculous?

I read the Chicago assertion above and thought I might find someone like-minded to ask if my friend is being overly-literal in his translation, or am I just an A.H.?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NHB Fighting and Aikido Scott_in_Kansas General 328 02-24-2016 08:27 AM
doubt and faith chris w General 7 11-23-2006 06:23 PM
Article: Clarity and Self-Delusion in One's Training by George S. Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 65 12-24-2005 08:34 AM
Just another doubt: what about Wushu? erminio General 15 09-10-2002 10:20 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:02 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate