Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb System

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-08-2005, 12:30 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,319
Offline
Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 8, 2005:

How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Entirely realistic
  • Very realistic
  • Somewhat realistic
  • Not very realistic
  • Not at all realistic
Here are the current results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 12:55 AM   #2
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

In social self-defense situations rather than combat during war, aikido is one system among many others that emphasizes "doing as little harm as possible." It is not only "very realistic" but absolutely necessary for humanity.

Even during war we must keep to "rules" in order to be able to live with ourselves and our former enemies after the battles have become history.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 02:33 AM   #3
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 393
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

It very much depends upon what level you are at....

Ruth
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 09:06 AM   #4
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,670
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

IMHO, any goal is "realistic" if ou are willing to put in the time to train for it.

There are only three steps. One, what do you want? Two, what do you have to do to reach/get it? Three, do it until you got it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 09:07 AM   #5
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 450
England
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

It very much depends on the attack!

There is a world of difference between the drunk who telegraphs a hay-maker a you, and the guy with a knife threatening you, your wife and/or kids.

There are situations where it is kill or be killed - I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6!!!

Osu!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 11:05 AM   #6
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,268
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

"Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?"

Before the engagement, very. That attitude--compassion?--will lessen the likelihood of conflict to begin with. This is aikido.

Also, I thought this was nicely put (boldface is mine):

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
In social self-defense situations rather than combat during war, aikido is one system among many others that emphasizes "doing as little harm as possible." It is not only "very realistic" but absolutely necessary for humanity.

Even during war we must keep to "rules" in order to be able to live with ourselves and our former enemies...
.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 11:32 AM   #7
ESimmons
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, any goal is "realistic" if you are willing to put in the time to train for it.
This is, essentially, why I voted for entirely realistic. Admittedly, I had a difficult time figuring out in my mind what exactly the question was asking. I think it's pretty open to interpretation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 12:13 PM   #8
Paul Kerr
 
Paul Kerr's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 63
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I really can't comment until the terms of the proposition are much more narrowly and explicitly defined than they are now.

Paul Kerr
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 06:28 PM   #9
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I'd say that they are two seperate things.

Defending yourself...realistic and very important.

Minimizing damage to your attacker...laudable, but it should not interfere with the First Law (above).

As a goal, "Minimizing Damage" is great; in that far future when I understand what is going on and can control the situation by a look. Realistic...probably depends on the person.

I wonder, however, how many of us have the training to make this a personal goal in a confrontation *right now*. I certainly don't. As Si said..."better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 08:17 PM   #10
stuartjvnorton
 
stuartjvnorton's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Shudokan
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I'm there with Ruth.
Seems to me that it's a whole lot easier (technique-wise, as opposed to morally or any other way) to plant someone's head into the ground than to restrain them with no lasting injury, especially when they're resisting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2005, 08:28 PM   #11
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
AikiWeb System wrote:
How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?
Voted somewhat realistic.

It all depends on the attacker's desire for harmony, i.e. harmony with the asphalt, harmony with the concrete wall, harmony with the lamp post or the harmony of escaping unhurt when he realises he messed with the wrong mofo this time.

It's all about what the attacker needs to find harmony imho.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 12:04 AM   #12
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,031
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

What Chuck and Lynn said.

I don't think of this as an "aikido" notion.

More like aikido is a path to work on moving closer to several
desirable goals like this one. At least I see it as being part of
attempting to becoming a more mature, compassionate being.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 01:38 AM   #13
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I voted somewhat realistic.

It is something I look forward to be able to do in the future. However at this moment in time of training, I do not have the ability to defend myself realistically and at the same time guarantee only minimal damage to my would be attacker. I am not that good yet.

Boon.

P/s: I've just read "Canon of Judo" by K. Mifune and there is one sentence in it that says, "Judo is jujutsu infused with morality". IMO, aikido is jujutsu infused with compassion. What do you all think?

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 02:59 AM   #14
Rupert Atkinson
Dojo: Wherever I am
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 736
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I voted 'somewhat'.

In general, Aikido attracts the very people it aims to create - those who want to solve conflicts peacefully. But the first goal they need to set is to make the stuff they learn work for them. Accordingly, they find themselves facing the contradiction of having to face the 'war' of it for a long time before achieving something resembling 'peace.' Avoiding is all well and good, but when push comes to shove, simply, you cannot give mercy unless you have the ability to destroy.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 04:07 AM   #15
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

I heard that once upon a time there were three brothers who searched for enlightenment. They heard of a really holly man who lived on top of a snake infested mountain. They all decided to seek his help but all travelled alone.

The first one met a venomous snake on his way. He walked around it as he did not want to either harm the snake nor be harmed by it. The second brother met another snake. He killed it as this would allow others to pass safely on their way to see the master. The third brother met yet another one of the those snakes. He stopped, talked to the snake and taught the snake not to use its venom in anger. Then he went onwards to meet the master.

Once all three brothers were in the presence of the master, he asked them about their encounter with the snakes. After all three brothers gave their story, he said that he would accept the first and second ones but that the third he could not teach. When his two new students asked him why he rejected the third brother, the master just shrugged and said: "I have nothing to teach him that he does not already know."

I have no idea why I posted this...

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 08:44 AM   #16
Rupert Atkinson
Dojo: Wherever I am
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 736
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Nice story, but the third brother can't stop and talk to the snake unless he is well-trained in dealing with snakes - one false step and you're dead. I wonder how many snakes he killed until he got to that level? And I wonder what and how the master is going to teach the first two brothers to get them to that level?

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 09:11 AM   #17
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,086
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

What makes this "entirely realistic" is the relativistic terminology of "minimizing" and "goal." To minimize is to do as little as possible. The greater we become in our awareness of Aikido, the easier it is to manifest the goal and make it more and more possible. We must train in every moment of our lives and as well as we can, that we may encounter more and more difficult situations and still make them win-win situations.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2005, 02:40 PM   #18
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

What Matthew said above. The 'mimimum' damage to an attacker may actually be quite serious, depending on the attacks and on the defender's skill level.

-LK
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 04:27 AM   #19
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

From practical experience, I have been very pleased with the limited damage which has occurred to me and to attackers. I think very importantly as well, the whole training method often results in attacks not being instigated in the first place (since you do not have to 'challenge' an attacker or adopt a threatening stance to assert your confidence).

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 10:01 AM   #20
James Davis
 
James Davis's Avatar
Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
Location: Ft. Myers, FL.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 716
United_States
Offline
Ai symbol Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

When we think of an attacker, often we envision the stereotypical "mean drunk". I can understand why some people might not be too concerned for the well being of some maniac that was trying to kill them , but what if it were one's grandmother? What if she were an alzheimers patient and didn't recognize them? What if an "attacker" happened to be a twelve year old nephew? These are situations in which self control is very important! Train to be gentle. This is Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2005, 10:46 AM   #21
mriehle
 
mriehle's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido
Location: Stockton, CA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 320
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Another story, this one personal.

At a certain point in my training I realized I was able to defend myself, but that I could not guarantee the safety of my attacker. I simply wasn't good enough. So, when someone tried to start something with me I would explain that to them.

"Look, I don't know if I will actually be to defend myself effectively. I'm pretty sure, though, that if I do you will get hurt. There's a good chance that even if I don't you will get hurt. I'm just not good enough at my art to be sure I can use it without hurting you, so I'd really rather you didn't force me to try.'

The thing is, if you say this in the right spirit (real concern for the other person) they will take it seriously and - at least in my experience - back off. I guess there is something really frightening about someone telling you that they really don't want to hurt you, but they will forced to do so if you attack and they aren't even concerned about winning the fight.

Some of you will have noticed that I defended myself without hurting anyone. Okay, it didn't always work, but when it did the outcome was ideal, IMO.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2005, 11:02 PM   #22
acot
Dojo: West Michigan Aikido
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 112
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourse

Great Poll. It has given a lot of room for discussion. Aikido is the way of harmonizing energy. Most people think they are on the moral high ground in a fight. The best way is to flow with what ever happens, and let nature take its course. (as it will rather you want it to or not). Trying to not damage an attacker during a confrontation is not a realistic goal unless you have trained for it, and you have kept a level head in the midst of the situation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2005, 07:35 PM   #23
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Wasn't there a story about how Ueshiba M. didn't want to demonstrate his Aikido in front of the emperor because true Aikido would result in a dead uke? Word came back that it was okay to just show a watered down form where the uke didn't die so Ueshiba M. did the demo.

That would seem to me to suggest that "true Aikido" would not focus on protecting your enemy.

Anyway...

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2005, 09:10 PM   #24
Chef CJ
Dojo: Green Bay Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 18
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Is it also not true that the foundations of Aikido were based on the ability of O Sensei to defeat an enemy without laying a hand on him? It would seem or at least what I have been taught thus far is that we are to remain safe and try to reach harmony with out injury if possible. The attacker does dictate his own fate to an extent as well the level-headedness and skill of the practitioner.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2005, 01:20 AM   #25
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 450
England
Offline
Re: Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker?

Quote:
Charles Moulton wrote:
Is it also not true that the foundations of Aikido were based on the ability of O Sensei to defeat an enemy without laying a hand on him?
This is where we manage to avoid conflict. The problem with those quotes is you get the Aiki nutty fairies trying to throw people without touching them.

I was at a seminar a few months back where we were doing Irimi Nage. I drove this guy in the direction of the tatami. He got up saying, "What are you doing? What are you doing? You're not supposed to touch me! You're just supposed to show your arm in front of my face and I fall over!" So I took him out ever harder the second time!

That is the problem with random quotes from O'Sensei - people twist it. I mean, some people even start refusing to train somewhere because of the way they will have to dress!

Osu!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 22 10-12-2005 05:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:23 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate