Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-14-2001, 10:57 PM   #1
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 12:39 AM   #2
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
In our school we do a diagonal roll over ukes arms and kick him in the head as we go over, this may be what your talking about but you did not give a lot of info.

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 01:36 AM   #3
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
wildaikido wrote:
In our school we do a diagonal roll over ukes arms and kick him in the head as we go over, this may be what your talking about but you did not give a lot of info.
I must admit that I wasn't thinking of kicking them in the head. I guess it's vague because the execution is vague to me. All I really have for more specifics is that 2 high falls happen one right after the other. The only 2 ways I can think of doing this involve performing kote gaeshi on the kote gaeshi which scares me on anything but a super aware partner or I position the fall to somehow unbalance the person doing the throwing. I think it's more the latter than the former I'm after but to be truthful I'm not really sure.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 03:41 AM   #4
Matt Banks
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 91
Offline
kashiwaza is what its called. Im sorry I justed wanted to say that if someone didnt know, ''ya learn something every day''. Hmmm from koetgashi. If a tecnique is put on properly than kashiwaza cannot be applied. The only one I can think of from kotegashi is before tory gets it on you raise your arm to your centre , slip your hips under him and do some a hip throw.

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 05:41 AM   #5
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 334
Offline
Quote:
Erik wrote:
I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!
You keep a hold of him. I've no details, I've just seen it demonstrated. Like Matt said, you can only do it if tore messes up.
You can counter koetgaeshi with another kotegaeshi if you're brought in too tight to tore, applying on the hand he uses to support. If both of you are terrible bad at applying technique but terrible good at reversing it you could do this reversal over and back for ever and ever without anybody ever winning.
Ooops, I've said too much again...
andrew
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 09:52 AM   #6
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
kashiwaza is what its called. Im sorry I justed wanted to say that if someone didnt know, ''ya learn something every day''.
Actually I believe that should be kaeshi waza, so I guess you are right, you do learn something every day.

For the record, I believe kashi refers to legs.

Quote:
Andrew wrote:
You keep a hold of him. I've no details, I've just seen it demonstrated.
Therein lies the problem. I have heard of folks who actually do kote gaeshi by launching themselves into the throw. This is what led me to think of that as a possibility but I agree it's probably not the one which I'm looking for nor do I think it's what I've seen.

I also agree on the sentiment of not being able to counter someone who does perfect technique and flying through the air isn't my first choice of counter. But dammit, it's got serious style points and I want to know how to do it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 10:00 AM   #7
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 334
Offline
[quote]Erik wrote:
Quote:
does perfect technique and flying through the air isn't my first choice of counter. But dammit, it's got serious style points and I want to know how to do it.
Are you referring here to a uke who maintains contact throughout and pulls down tore after landing, or is something happening middair?

I think, if you keep training, you'll simply have a notion one day and be able to do it..
andrew
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 10:19 AM   #8
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,851
Offline
Quote:
Erik wrote:
For the record, I believe kashi refers to legs.
That would be "ashi." "Kashi" can refer either to "oak" or "confectionary." Unless there's some kind of set of techniques involving the two...

As far as that particular kotegaeshi counter goes of uke launching nage while uke is still in the air, I think it's more for show. We've practiced the counter for kotegaeshi wherein you take the backfall or breakfall while continuing to extend nage's motion of the kotegaeshi to break their balance to throw them. The same can be done for shihonage and (although I haven't tried this one out yet) kaitennage.

I don't know if it's a technique I'm going to be trying "on the street," but I think it helps illustrate the fact that falling and rolling doesn't necessarily mean that uke is no longer a threat and that breaking nage's balance can happen in the most interesting places...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 10:31 AM   #9
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
andrew wrote:
Are you referring here to a uke who maintains contact throughout and pulls down tore after landing, or is something happening middair?
I'm not exactly sure. I think it begins in mid-air and finishes on the ground, so perhaps both. You would have to maintain contact. As I think more on it, I'm guessing there is a placement issue that creates extension or leverage which is used to displace center or helps to displace it creating the throw.

Quote:
I think, if you keep training, you'll simply have a notion one day and be able to do it..
andrew
Agreed, but I'm still gonna ask.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 10:51 AM   #10
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
akiy wrote:
That would be "ashi." "Kashi" can refer either to "oak" or "confectionary." Unless there's some kind of set of techniques involving the two...
<snipped some stuff of mine>

I actually did a search on kashi, just in case Matt was referring to something obscure, and I hit legs several times, including

http://www.aikidofaq.com/dictionary/bodyparts.html

and these guys say the same thing and more actually.

http://www.trussel.com/f_nih.htm

They also include the following translations:

noncommissioned officer
the legs; lower extremities
being granted; granting; imperial grant
asphyxiation; apparent death
false tooth
(a-no) visibility
song lyrics; words of a song
fish market; riverside; river bank
Fahrenheit
pastry
evergreen oak
loan; lending

Quote:
As far as that particular kotegaeshi counter goes of uke launching nage while uke is still in the air, I think it's more for show.
I completely agree but I still want to know how to do it.

[Edited by Erik on February 15, 2001 at 12:26pm]
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 01:13 PM   #11
Guest5678
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 135
Offline
VERY tricky ukemi......

Erik,

When nage does (poor) kote gaeshi (only way this really works), grab nage's wrist with your free hand just prior to entering your break fall escape, keep contact between his palm and your hand (the one that they did kote on). As you go over, rotate the hand nage did kote on to a forward direction and wrap around nage's hand. The turning motion of the breakfall will also turn nage's wrist over. Your hand will now be on the back of nage's and you still have his wrist with your other hand. Nage then has to break fall over you to escape. You have to land in the right position to start with and it's very hard to explain this in text. Also, beware that the force of the first break fall can cause extreme damage to nage's wrist if they are not expecting this move. Basically, you have to breakfall without any asistance from your arms or hands. Sounds much easier than it is. While this looks really cool, I would not recommend it as there is a very high potential for injury to both people. I hope this helps.......

Please train safe,

Dan P. - Mongo
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 02:18 PM   #12
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 432
Offline
I've also seen this kind of counter, but with back rolls instead of breakfalls. Uke rolls because nage doesn't keep uke's elbow vertical, then comes up out of the roll and counters with their own kotegaeshi. Just a couple of weeks ago, one of my sempai did this to me when he busted me doing a sloppy kotegaeshi. One of the more surprising reversals I've encountered...

Robert Cronin
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2001, 11:13 PM   #13
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Re: VERY tricky ukemi......

Quote:
Mongo wrote:
Erik,

When nage does (poor) kote gaeshi (only way this really works), grab nage's wrist with your free hand just prior to entering your break fall escape, keep contact between his palm and your hand (the one that they did kote on). As you go over, rotate the hand nage did kote on to a forward direction and wrap around nage's hand. The turning motion of the breakfall will also turn nage's wrist over. Your hand will now be on the back of nage's and you still have his wrist with your other hand. Nage then has to break fall over you to escape. You have to land in the right position to start with and it's very hard to explain this in text. Also, beware that the force of the first break fall can cause extreme damage to nage's wrist if they are not expecting this move. Basically, you have to breakfall without any asistance from your arms or hands. Sounds much easier than it is. While this looks really cool, I would not recommend it as there is a very high potential for injury to both people. I hope this helps.......

Please train safe,

Dan P. - Mongo
Thank you very much and I'll be safe. I really only have one person that I would trust with this anyway. Even there we will do heavy choreography, if we even do it, because truthfully I'm the only one at our dojo that I'm certain can take the described ukemi. But if nothing else you've satisfied a yearning in me.

[Edited by Erik on February 15, 2001 at 11:16pm]
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2001, 09:06 AM   #14
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Talking

I know two others on kote geishi...
1. Just when uke(nage?) start with the throw you, nage(uke?), step out and back of uke and at the same time close your fist and turn it in the opposite direction, and you will end up in a ikkyu
2. Just in the right moment you overtake uke's(nage's) throwing motion and step in front and then in to do iriminage. It feels great when you get this one in.

! If you train keishi waza then, try to do different kind without telling your partner, that you will have your moment of surprise!

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2001, 09:22 AM   #15
Guest5678
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 135
Offline
Quote:
BC wrote:
I've also seen this kind of counter, but with back rolls instead of breakfalls. Uke rolls because nage doesn't keep uke's elbow vertical, then comes up out of the roll and counters with their own kotegaeshi. Just a couple of weeks ago, one of my sempai did this to me when he busted me doing a sloppy kotegaeshi. One of the more surprising reversals I've encountered...
BC,

Yeah, I've seen it with back rolls but haven't tried it. Appears harder to hold onto nage. Of course the issue with the other way is nage has to enter his escape prior to uke landing, so timing is very critical. Either way, I'd still rather just kick 'em in the back of the head on the way over, and roll back up. he-he-he! What fun we have, huh?!

Train hard, Play hard, live easy.

Dan P. - Mongo
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2001, 11:18 AM   #16
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 334
Offline
Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
, and you will end up in a ikkyu
Sounds painful. What if there's no ikkyu around? Would a yonkyu do, cos we've loads of them at the moment.

andrew

(sorry!)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2001, 01:26 PM   #17
DiNalt
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 82
Offline
Teehee

I was waiting for someone to say that.

Quote:
andrew wrote:
Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
, and you will end up in a ikkyu
Sounds painful. What if there's no ikkyu around? Would a yonkyu do, cos we've loads of them at the moment.

andrew

(sorry!)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2001, 01:54 PM   #18
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 432
Offline
What if you're already an ikkyu, and you end up in a gokyu?

Robert Cronin
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2001, 06:22 AM   #19
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Talking

Nice one! 'hope you all understand what I mean anyway

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2001, 07:27 AM   #20
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Counter

Quote:
Erik wrote:
I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!
Koregaeshi into Kotegaeshi Reversal

The one you are most likely referring to involves this:
The nage has a grabbing hand (grabbing the wrist) and a matching hand (placed on the back of the hand); uke takes his free hand and grabs the wrist of nage's matching hand, he attempts to fall inside the arc of projection of the kotegaeshi, as he lands he twists away from nage, applies his own matching hand and throws the nage over his body by over extending him (note that uke's body should be right up against the legs of nage to prevent any balancing step being made>

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2001, 08:02 AM   #21
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 334
Offline
Re: Counter

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
(placed on the back of the hand); uke takes his free hand and grabs the wrist of nage's matching hand, he attempts to fall inside the arc of projection of the kotegaeshi
Em... Is that with a kotegaeshi grab or just taking the wrist?

andrew
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2001, 08:40 AM   #22
javi-o
Dojo: Centro Cultural Peruano Japones
Location: Lima PERU
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4
Offline
Unhappy

[quote]Erik wrote:
[b]I have seen a counter done with kote gaeshi where you take the high fall, something happens, and your partner subsequently takes a fall. I'm a little unclear on the something happens part. Could someone enlighten me on this?

I think I know what you refer to. That counter(kaeshi waza as someone has correctly said) could be one kick to the head of the KG performer(uke/tori?) or extending his arm in order to pull him of balance. Bein the former the most benevolent. The first, indeed, can cause serious damage to tori(/uke?). I have once saw two friends practicing randori and one of them, who was performing gotegaeshi, was knoked down by a the kick counter. It is very dangerous for both uke and tori to perform such a technique, there are other counters to kote gaeshi. Also, kothe gaeshi when performed in a downward manner has but litlle chances to escape.

take care of your selves and donīt do circus-like things because they look or feel fancy.

bye

Javier
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2001, 08:57 AM   #23
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
I've had a slight change of view over kotegaeshi over the past few months. It is often done with the hip going in very quickly and a large circular throw. This enables the counter (as described) with the kick to the head - also, if the kotegaeshi is too slow it results in uke either hitting nage with his other hand or just charging in to nage.

An alternative is to withdraw ukes arm to the side (as you would normally, turning him around). But well before his centre is lined up with his own wrist you put kote-gaeshi on. This doesn't look as pretty and usually results in a backward ukemi rather than forward ukemi for uke. However it prevents being kicked, or hit. It also prevents uke getting control of your wrist for the counter, as his centre never comes in line with his arm (and therefore he is weak). In terms of real application, you cannot get a throw out of this and you would have to either cause them to sit down with the pain (unlikely I think) or break the wrist.

Ian
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Randori No Kata - history etc DaveS Techniques 14 09-30-2006 08:59 PM
Testing requirements kyu levels arjandevries Testing 10 08-07-2006 08:26 PM
How best to deliver a striking attack? garytan Training 26 02-23-2004 07:50 PM
Kote Garuma JPT Techniques 11 07-01-2002 02:35 PM
ukemi ian Teaching 6 11-13-2000 05:01 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:15 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate