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Old 07-08-2004, 02:53 PM   #1
shihonage
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Reminder of what real attacks look like

Get the video of the recent scuffle between two band leaders at http://www.azpunk.com/ (11mb MPEG).

This is how a person who has hit before and is intent on hitting you, is really going to hit you.
I think videos like these are a good reminder to take some time to practice yokomen attacks and techniques at high speed and really DO try to "clock" nage.

If you never practice at high speed, an average guy like this will floor you in 0.5 seconds.

An interesting detail about this video is how the other guy raised his arm to block, but he didn't move his body, and the punch, driven by a couple of hundred pounds of inertia-powered weight, went right through the block, connecting to his head.

EDIT: someone made an animated .GIF out of this; it's shorter and plays slower than the actual video.


Last edited by shihonage : 07-08-2004 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 07-08-2004, 03:27 PM   #2
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

On top of it all, the "nage" even was ready for it - an advantage not often provided in real encounters. Still - to no avail here. In a sick sort of way, one can say, "beautiful - classic." Thanks for sharing. It's all right there: No angle of deviation, no anchored elbow in the angle of deflection, the presence of an unreconciled offense/defense dichotomy, etc., Pow!

dmv
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Old 07-08-2004, 03:46 PM   #3
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Oh man - just saw the clip - and on top of everything it was the guy with poor technique that got clocked that started it all.
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Old 07-08-2004, 04:19 PM   #4
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

I think that video's a good example of why being an arrogant rock star isn't really the path of least resistance through life.

What makes you think the guy who knocks out Danzig has any fighting experience? While his intent is pretty clear and I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of his punch, it looks to me like he really telegraphs it and throws himself off balance with the follow-through.

Last edited by Brehan Crawford : 07-08-2004 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 07-08-2004, 04:51 PM   #5
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Brehan, when you view the original clip you'll see that the speed is quite different from the animated .GIF you see on this page.

The REASON he overcommits is to develop a maximum speed/chance of connecting with that strike.
Sacrifice one for the other. And he succeeded.
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Old 07-08-2004, 05:16 PM   #6
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Lets not be too analytical here guys....the portly fella got lucky with a haymaker and Glen stood there like a donkey. I've worked security for a North Side Kings(the singer of which threw the punch) show and the only thing that guy poses a threat too is a buffet table and Goth Rockers too stupid to move. End of Story.
As far as Danzig getting his lights dimmed alow me to say this....ahem.....BWWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Marc

Last edited by TexV2 : 07-08-2004 at 05:26 PM. Reason: I wanted to put a donkey reference in there somewhere. Just sound better than jackass.

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Old 07-08-2004, 08:37 PM   #7
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Just watched the whole clip at Azpunk; nothing says class like a bunch of hangers' on and wags shouting taunts AFTER the fight is over and people are walking away.

After the shove, the "nage" should have kept "entering", never allowing "uke" to get his momentum (while we are all trying to disect a fight from our keyboards), but that is jusy my opinion.

And if the puncher is "average", I don't want to meet his big sister.

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Old 07-08-2004, 09:35 PM   #8
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

I agree: that's an educational bit of scuffling. . . and the big guy moves faster than I would have thought he could! Live and learn, I guess.

Here are some interesting tidbits I found on Blabbermouth.net's message boards, while I was trying to figure out the context of the scuffle:
http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/bla...wsitemID=18062
One guy says: "BLEEPing with a guy who has extensive training in several forms of martial arts and boxing is just stupid", while another on a different thread mentions that Glenn Danzig, the guy who got knocked out, has a black belt, and studied "the martial art Bruce Lee invented" (I assume he means JKD). I couldn't find any other info on his training with a quick search: anyone know offhand? Can anyone substantiate this? I've never trained in JKD, but the shover certainly didn't move like someone trained, IMHO. If the guy who is getting hit has training, it puts this into a different light, no? Could he really not have expected the response he got to his initial shove?
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Old 07-08-2004, 09:55 PM   #9
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote:
After the shove, the "nage" should have kept "entering", never allowing "uke" to get his momentum (while we are all trying to disect a fight from our keyboards).

safer that way.. (disecting from keyboard...)..

I think I would be "Kutai"ing into next week to get away from that BUFF...
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Old 07-09-2004, 12:40 AM   #10
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Thanks for the reminder Aleksey.
I thought the attack was crap till I saw the full-speed.
What this reminds me is that there is no time to think
at all once the attack begins. No time at all.

"Training at high speeds" is one way to put it, but on top
of that there is no way around the fact that we are supposed
to be training our subconscious, "no-mind" responses to
be free and smooth and skilled. Training is not for the part
of us that can follow and understand what we are doing
while we are doing it. That part of us should stick to books
and aikiweb forums!
I guess you could say reading and thinking trains our minds
but getting on the mat and just moving and reacting trains
our souls. Or something like that.
Too bad the dojo isn't open right now...
--JW
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Old 07-09-2004, 01:23 AM   #11
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

lesson #1.. if you're going to push a big ugly bloke like that, be ready for a response.
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Old 07-09-2004, 01:42 AM   #12
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote:
Thanks for the reminder Aleksey.
I thought the attack was crap till I saw the full-speed.
What this reminds me is that there is no time to think
at all once the attack begins. No time at all.

No, this whole thread reads like the analysis you might expect
from mid-kyu students.

the attack was crap and then only reason it succeeded was the
shover stood there like a donkey after initiating physical contact
to paraphrase from the one sensible post. There was plenty of time.
The question is whether the person in question had the state that
would have allowed him to do so. Clearly no.

It would be more interesting if you found a flick where the puncher flips it on before the shover ramps up to go. Favorite tactic of a friend of mine when he was a bouncer dealing with someone that needed ejecting.
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Old 07-09-2004, 01:55 AM   #13
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

"An interesting detail about this video is how the other guy raised his arm to block, but he didn't move his body, and the punch, driven by a couple of hundred pounds of inertia-powered weight, went right through the block, connecting to his head"

A previous Sensei used to practically drill this idea into our thick skulls;
"The only reason for blocking is because you are too slow to counter or get out of the way"

Which seems to be the case here as the other guy is just standing there, waiting for it to come in. Besides, you'd have to be pretty nuts/drunk/slow to stand in front of that, I don't care how good your block is.
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Old 07-09-2004, 02:15 AM   #14
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote:
Thanks for the reminder Aleksey.
I thought the attack was crap till I saw the full-speed.
What this reminds me is that there is no time to think
at all once the attack begins. No time at all.
There was tons of time. First; as Ian said; Tinkerbell there should've known a response was coming; since he started it. Second; there was 2.5 seconds of buildup from the shove to the strike in which Powderpuff's brain worked up the brilliant bit of tactics: "Duuhhhh.... hit dat guy...". And long before that in which the decision had already been made. Ignoring for a moment the fact we knew it was going to happen 'cause there was a video of it; these two Einsteins were going to trade pleasantries from the second we saw 'em. Now; two seconds sounds quick; it's a very long time as these things go - if Powderpuff had any kind of skill at all; Tinkerbell's shove would have turned into a one-way ticket to toothless town.
Finally in the time department; well hell - it was a haymaker! If there's a slower form of arm strike; I don't know it. That is, of course, relative - it sure didn't look slow on the video; and it's 10 times faster than most see on the mat these days, but it's still bloody slow. There was tons o'time to get a guard up and get inside the weapon - the fist. Black Belt Tinkerbell had a dozen options at his disposal. The one he chose - breaking Powder Puff's knuckles with his chin - might not have been the best technique for the moment.

Just keep in mind: This was a fight, OK? Not a defense situation; not an assault. One dumbass shoved another dumbass; which threw a punch. Fighting was agreed upon by both sides.
As educational value; this video is a little light entertainment, nothing more - because this is not the attack you need to worry about. Just don't shove a fat goof with the intelligence of fertilizer.

Warning: the following link leads to a very violently graphic video.

This is the kind of attack you have to worry about.

Last edited by akiy : 07-10-2004 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Administrative: added graphic violence warning

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Old 07-09-2004, 02:21 AM   #15
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

I'm with Craig, it's always disgusting when normal poor attacks actually work when we all know that only pure ma/boxing attacks ever really work in the str33t Sheesh, attack worked, what more do you need? (PS - I'm not a mid kyu grade)

Actually, as you may already guess, I'm more with Ian Williams. But, this is a common mistake made by people who have limited experience with "true" violence. They initiate (normally against their own quite natural instincts re violence) but fail to follow through or even think about what is going to happen next.

As many of the discussions on aikido in the str33t seem to revolve around what they'd do in situation x with no thought about how their own changing response would affect their opponent and what changes your opponent would make to their own attacks, I wonder how many of us would end up looking just as foolish as Mr JKD guy (raises hand guiltily as most of my violence outside the dojo has been mental for many a year now)

DaveO - seen that clip before, you may want to put a warning on that link as it is very disturbing

Last edited by happysod : 07-09-2004 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 07-09-2004, 02:37 AM   #16
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:

DaveO - seen that clip before, you may want to put a warning on that link as it is very disturbing
Yes, it is. That's the difference between real life and fantasy. The first clip was frankly funny. The second was not - but it was far, far from a worst case scenario.
The reality of true defense is ugly and brutal - training for defense is not about winning; but about escaping. That clip illustrates this better than any other I've seen.
I'm personally of the mind that "If you're not prepared to watch that little video; you're not prepared to learn defense"; but that's me.
If I have time left; I'll add a warning to that post. If not; I'll put it here:

IF YOU'RE SQUEAMISH; DO NOT WATCH THE CLIP IN MY LAST POST. IT CAN BE DISTURBING TO SOME.

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Old 07-09-2004, 02:46 AM   #17
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Actually, I found the calm, almost mechanical manner in which the guy kept coming back to stomp on her some more was more disturbing than many of the real "gore fests" I've also seen. That degree of detachment in violence is rare.

Mind, I've got to hold up my full born-again coward wimp credentials as I never find any violence funny outside of the movies - ok - and dojo (and that includes the "attack of the ego blobs" in Aleksey's clip)
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:12 AM   #18
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

It just goes to show keyboard-waza is even easier than telegraphed-roundhouse-waza



and for something a little more serious, I would just LOVE to be able to be in a closed room with that disgusting animal in that .ru clip.......
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Old 07-09-2004, 07:22 AM   #19
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
It just goes to show keyboard-waza is even easier than telegraphed-roundhouse-waza



and for something a little more serious, I would just LOVE to be able to be in a closed room with that disgusting animal in that .ru clip.......
No - you wouldn't. Not with him in the state he was in during that video.
Now, I know you mean afterward; somehow getting that guy alone. Believe me - me too. We could take turns holding him down, Ian.
But I'd like to address the most common comments I've read about this or any other video, recording or description of assault. They are "She should have done..." or "If I were there, I'd..." (I know you wern't saying this; but it's the point of the video.)
Let me say something here: Many on this board by now know my history. A few are familiar with my attitude on defense, and what skills I bring to the table to back them up. I can say without shame that I have no idea if I could have prevented that attack or fought that guy off.
The initial attack; sure - no problem. The guy was clumsy, erratic, uncoordinated. He had put no thought into what to do after the initial attack; therefore no idea what to do next. I've built up a trigger reflex over the years that throws me into an attacker full-force at the IPC (Initial Point of Contact). He'd left himself wide open for exactly the kind of response I excel at.
So, if I was just looking at it on the surface; I'd say 'no problem - I could take him easily'.
But there's a lot more to it. The guy in question has already committed himself to doing murder - he is both physically and psychologically prepared to escalate the violence to insane levels in order to achieve success. I said 'insane', and I mean 'insane'. The guy is not rational - this holds true for the majority of violent acts. In a case like this; it's the level of escalation I have no idea whether or not I'd be able to counter - keep in mind I'm no stranger to going totally batsh*t myself and can easily cut loose when required. Remember; I said earlier this was far from a worst-case scenario - it's much closer to the norm than people want to think.
You can't outfight a guy like this; you can't control him. Nor can you force him into submission or make him give up. In a case like this; you have one option - get the hell out of there! And if you are, like that girl, so overwhelmingly silly and lost in dreamland that you allow yourself to get cornered like this well...someone will be reading about you in the paper.
(There is of course the possibility that breaking the initial strike will make the guy run away. That's a huge assumption to be making about another person's psychology - you gonna bet your life on being right?)
My point is; there are as many reasons to practice aikido as there are people that practice aikido. Each reason is good and right. BUT if your intent - even in part - in learning aikido is self defense; it's not enough to simply know what violence looks like - you must learn why it looks and behaves the way it does. Only then can you begin to develop realistic habits and defenses against violence.

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Old 07-09-2004, 07:37 AM   #20
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Actually, I found the calm, almost mechanical manner in which the guy kept coming back to stomp on her some more was more disturbing than many of the real "gore fests" I've also seen. That degree of detachment in violence is rare.
Disturbing, yes - but please allow me to correct your interpretation - he was not calm, mechanical or detatched. I don't know what his mental state was before the attack; whether he was on something or what; but from the decision point on; he was acting entirely under the influence of adrenaline. His attack was quite frankly sloppy work - he had no idea what he was doing; it came out in a frenzy of kicks. Whatever his mental state he was very literally momentarily insane - all violence, energy and no rational control. Had there been sound on this video; I'm willing to bet he'd be making an animal sound impossible to interpret on the keyboard. As in the above post, (BTW - terribly sorry about not posting a response in order; I meant to but got distracted) it's vitally important to understand WHY it's happening; not just what is happening.

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Old 07-09-2004, 08:38 AM   #21
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
I don't know what his mental state was before the attack; whether he was on something or what
DaveO, he was a registered drug addict and this was not his first attack, just the one that was caught on camera and put on the internet.
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Old 07-09-2004, 09:43 AM   #22
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

HA HA......two...two donkey refrences in one thread! whoo hoo!!

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Old 07-09-2004, 03:09 PM   #23
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Alright, so can I get a little context for the attack in the elevator? Who are these people? Did she live? Was he apprehended?
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:50 PM   #24
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Thank you Aleksey and Dan for posting both of these clips. It provides wonderful opportunity to discuss how things work in the real world.

The first clip is pretty cut and dry; the guy getting clocked was an idiot. The hay maker, although it moves fast once it gets going, is badly telegraphed. If Mr. Danzig had simply moved his head a little to the right as the punch was coming in, the tubby attacker would have missed Glen entirely and thrown himself off balance by the force of his own blow.

The second clip is far more disturbing. I don't think this was a matter of mindless animal attack, but more that the woman was consciously selected for her small size and lack of awareness. If she did not possess either of these two qualities I think this guy would have sought and easier target. The take down used was also not mindless, but an effective technique. It may be a sloppy technique but he did not tackle her like an animal; he used leverage and he circled a little as to not pull his victim on top of him. These are traits of forethought and practice. This guy knew what he was doing, though he may have attacked with the ferocity of an animal the technique was selected by a calculating mind. It was only after he had her unconscious on the ground that he lapsed into mindless stomping.

This is all MHO of course.

Last edited by Keith_k : 07-09-2004 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 07-09-2004, 07:44 PM   #25
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Back to a different element of this thread...

Hay-maker or not - which is a relative term; Educated or not - which seems a moot point in light of the results: We are still looking here at a strike that is less telegraphing than either tsuki or yokomenuchi as it is practiced in the majority of Aikido dojo; we are still looking at a strike that has way more back-up mass and penetration of target than tsuki does in the majority of Aikido dojo; we are still looking at a strike that maintains way more dominance over the centerline than yokomenuchi as it is practiced in the majority of Aikido dojo; etc.

The way most folks throw yokomenuchi in training has them executing a tactic that would either result in a shoulder injury and/or with them being off balance were they actually to strike a target (just from the reactionary energy) - and that's giving a lot, the assumption that they could actually hit a target with such a strike.

In every other martial art that employs the inward hand sword, the path of action is much tighter than what you see in most of Aikido. In other arts, primarily those that spend time actually hitting something/someone, you also don't see that "Aikidoka lean" that a lot of folks do for their favorite shihan. Nor do you see that spinning around "reaction" (counter-clockwise and/or clockwise) in other types of martial arts that use yokomenuchi as a vehicle for understanding martial concepts along a horizontal and/or diagonal plane of action.

For the most part there is a lot of false manipulation - which results in a ludicrous form - by uke in executing yokomen, and most of that happens simply because one is trying to "create" a situation where nage can find it easy to go from the inside of the arm to the outside of the arm. So you also see a lot of "hay-makers" in Aikido - we just call them yokomenuchi.

This we must consider on top of all the other times that most nage are clashing with this strike in a way that they do not do with tsuki and shomenuchi, and/or the way folks are pausing after the "block" - with uke is just sitting there waiting for something else to happen! Though these executions by nage are also both common, they are insane and antithetical to the tactic of aiki. In all of these cases, I think we are looking at the manipulation of a training situation for the purposes of "hiding" the fact that a key skill is not being cultivated and/or manifested: the skill of blending with fully committed attacks. (Note: Blending is not the same thing as simply letting strikes go by you. Simply letting strikes go by you is called "dodging.")

In my opinion, proper execution of the attack must be the first given - it is supposed to happen long before anything else is "given" (assuming one's training is still at such a basic level of learning and intensity). Since backup-mass is needed to deliver maximum force at impact, of primary importance then is that the hand comes up the centerline (in conjunction with the checking/guarding hand) to the top of the head and then comes down, slightly out, and in (on a diagonal path). The "out" of this strike is NO MORE FURTHER out than one's outer rim (whose Y axis apex is at the homo-lateral shoulder). The tighter the better, since the closer one stays to the centerline, the more mass delivered at impact, etc.

Throwing such a strike in this way is almost like a "dip stick" for Aikido. You can learn a lot about a person's take on the art itself and you can learn a lot on the art's major position regarding the martial side of training - just by giving this strike, in this way, to nage from all over the world. Hit the seminar circuit and see how many disagreeing looks you get because you weren't opening your strike up enough, and/or disengaging enough mass from your strike, and/or telegraphing your strike enough, and/or expecting only to strike nage and letting him/her worry about how to go from the inside to the outside of the arm in order to reach shikaku with irimi-ashi.

dmv
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