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Old 07-18-2004, 01:26 AM   #1
aikidofan
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ground fighting

hello,

I was wondering if someone here could outline the general ground fighting strategies employed by aikido.

Also how do they differ from other styles approach to ground fighting

thanks
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Old 07-18-2004, 03:24 AM   #2
KamiKaze_Evolution
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Re: ground fighting

Aikido has no ground fighting, that isn't BJJ. OK? Aikido has sitting techniques beside standing techniques. That's all!

KamiKaze
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Old 07-18-2004, 03:36 AM   #3
shihonage
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Re: ground fighting

Aikido's groundfighting consists of applying standing techniques while kneeling.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:13 AM   #4
DaveO
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
Aikido's groundfighting consists of applying standing techniques while kneeling.
...which most decidedly is not groundfighting.

Aikido is a standing art; though many of its concepts can be used at ground level - though if that happens; you're straying into BJJ/wrestling territory. Which is a good thing - the right tool for the right job.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:41 AM   #5
mj
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Re: ground fighting

Groundfighting is the current 'in thing'.

No-one can doubt its effectiveness but there is something to be said for nice posture

Anyway...which groundwork do you mean? There is BJJ, MMA, Judo and so on.

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Old 07-18-2004, 09:54 AM   #6
darin
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Re: ground fighting

I know that in Yoseikan Aikido they teach or used to teach judo ground fighting techniques. I haven't seen any ground fighting in other styles but quite a few Japanese aikido masters are also black belts in Judo.
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Old 07-18-2004, 10:08 AM   #7
csinca
 
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Re: ground fighting

Peter,

My general strategy is to apply the same principles I use standing up.

The major principles that I apply are: don't get hit, relaxation, moving around the power, posture, skeletal locks, and triagulation. There are a few more but these are the main ones that I use all the time.

A quick example, many an aikido class are spent learning ikkyo, nikkyo sankyo etc... well these are nothing more than skeletal locks starting at the wrist. In a BJJ class you may work on a keylock or an armbar, well these are nothing more than skeletal locks.

By remaining relaxed and moving around the opponents power you are trying to
1. avoid losing (don't get hit, or in this case choked out or have something snapped)
2. improve your position (balance and triangulation)
3. End the encounter (skeletal locks)

Of course there is a lot more but that is the general outline I start from

Good luck

Chris
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Old 07-18-2004, 10:48 AM   #8
vanstretch
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Re: ground fighting

I like the idea that anything can be considered an aikido technique. By this, I mean that one has the OPTION of applying more or less force in whatever positon we end up in. Isn't that the point of all this?
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Old 07-18-2004, 12:19 PM   #9
Tharis
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
I like the idea that anything can be considered an aikido technique. By this, I mean that one has the OPTION of applying more or less force in whatever positon we end up in. Isn't that the point of all this?
I'm inclined to agree. I tend to think that the spirit of the application is what makes technique aikido, rather than the specific form. Generally, if you can end a conflict through de-escalation or immobilization, then it's aiki. Even in groundfighting, which generally, in my experience, isn't taught in traditional aikido (coming from an aikikai dojo, of course).
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Old 07-18-2004, 11:15 PM   #10
xuzen
 
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Re: ground fighting

Dear all,

Here is my $ 0.02 thought wrt to ground fighting:

Aikido was derived from weapomanship. Many of the movements and techniques were improvised from yari, juken and kenjutsu. Hence ground technique is never aikido forte. In a system, if you were to incorporate all aspect of fighting, then you will have more than a lifetime to learn. I have said before, in this forum, Dr Jigaro Kano and Osensei Ueshiba took what was a very large syllabus (from various sect/school of jujitsu) and distilled them to retain what was in their capacity the best workable technique.

In any weoponmanship, the idea was the frist strike is all that was needed to finish your adversary. It also serve a functional purpose to avoid ground grappling because in combat, it is most likely one may face multiple aggressor. Grappling on the ground would be suicide. While you are grappling with one, many more would be there ready to hack you to pieces. Also, aikido maintains that you have very light footwork, for the numerous tenkan and irimi for avoidance and counter attack.

Should any unfortunate practitioner were to face aggressor in real life, IMO practice atemi more than, ground fighting, because real fighting is about getting out alive, not trying to determine who can grapple better. That would be more for showmanship/sport.

Truly,
Boon

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-18-2004, 11:41 PM   #11
DaveO
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Re: ground fighting

Very true; Boon - but what do you do if an attacker takes you down? I personally hate groundfighting - it's dirty and disgusting rolling around on a beer-soaked floor (trust me on this) and practice generally involves wrapping yourself up with scantily clad sweaty guys. AAAACK!!! (LOL!)
Doesn't stop me from knowing how to do it - it's a skillset that can save your life.

BTW; an earlier post said:
Quote:
"I like the idea that anything can be considered an aikido technique. By this, I mean that one has the OPTION of applying more or less force in whatever positon we end up in. Isn't that the point of all this?"
Heh heh - I like the thought of someone trying to tell a Judoka what he's really doing is aikido. Two different arts; two different styles, two different skillsets and reasons.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:01 AM   #12
vanstretch
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Re: ground fighting

Organ,no one is trying to tell a (judoka) or anybody anything. I refer you to Mr. Thomas Harris response and to rethink your position. Please dont take this as something that you have to rebut or as a personal attack on your ego either-no response is required. Take it easy friend.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:37 AM   #13
vanstretch
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Re: ground fighting

PS; take chokes for example; you could crush the larynx and cause a tremedous amount of damage and/or end the individual permanently. Or you can use the arm to give pressure to both sides of the neck and put the guy to sleep for a few seconds. Reiterating the point that its the OPTION to cause less harm to the person. We learned this last week in Aikido class from a guest who was an aikido guy who also grapples and was a cage guy. This is where I got the idea that any thing can have aikido technique WITHIN it. later all.
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Old 07-19-2004, 03:32 AM   #14
Ian Williams
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Re: ground fighting

with respect, this is a good example of why some fights end up on the ground

Gif Image (700K)

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
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Old 07-19-2004, 03:45 AM   #15
DaveO
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Re: ground fighting

Well first; if I offended anyone with my comment; I apologize. (And BTW - my name is Dave; not Organ. That does offend.)
Second; your point is valid; that anything that follows aiki principles can preseumably be used in aikido. However; I tend to draw a line at groundfighting - it's a totally different dynamic than fighting upright. The division of striking/redirective/grappling arts is fairly well established; and attempting to use one to describe another without a good understanding of both can get one into trouble. Aikido is not made for groundfighting; attempting to use it as such can be problematic.
For that reason; when I teach ASD on Sundays, I use a blend of groundfighting, Jiu-jitsu, karate and raw SD technique to explain concepts, demonstrate situations, show position and test tactical movement. When I do that; I make damn good 'n sure I tell the folks I'm teaching 'this is not aikido - this is JJ' or 'this is raw SD' etc. so that the separation is firmly held in place. Particularly when dealing with newer students; if this separation is not kept clear it can cause confusion as to what an 'aiki principle' actually is - saying something is aikido is a lot easier than determining if it actually is aikido. Remember; while considering the similarities; one must also consider the differences.
Aikido is aikido; Judo is Judo; even if you study both - and many do - and blend both arts into your defensive repetoir; it's important to understand the divisions between the arts.
Lol - and just in point of fact; I have seen aikido people try to tell practicioners of other arts that 'what they're doing is really aikido'. The judoka in question were rather offended - and rightly so; IMO.

Cheers!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 07-19-2004, 04:36 AM   #16
Ian Upstone
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Re: ground fighting

Thought I'd chuck in my opinion - please disregard if you don't agree!

To answer the original questions, I would say there are no ground fighting strategies employed by aikido - and this is how it differs!

The old adage "if you're any good at aikido, you won't end up on the ground!" comes to mind. Which although idealistic, (and a little blinkered maybe) seems to make sense.

Although ground skills are very very useful, no one wants to end up on the ground in the first place (unless in a controlled competition - against one person - who you know you can defeat on the ground), as it this is where your attacker (and of course, his friends, or even bystanders) will put the boot (or worse) in.

IMO the chap being clobbered in Ian's link seemed so busy sizing up to the guy in front of him, that his awareness of everything else around him was ignored, and he suffered for it.

...and I don't think that particular example would end up in a 'groundfight'. More like a severe kicking to someone when they're down.

I'd say the best strategy is getting up as soon as you possibly can, or even, better still - not ending up on the ground in the first place.

(runs before a wave of groundwork experts jump in to disagree...)
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Old 07-19-2004, 04:37 AM   #17
James Finley
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Re: ground fighting

Hi. In my opinion, even if you choose not to study ground fighting (for whatever reason), you owe it to yourself to learn two escapes: an escape from a headlock on the ground and an escape from the full mount (opponent has you mounted). At least if the fight does go to the ground, you will have the ability to escape and give yourself a fighting chance. Adding the rear strangle might be useful in case he gives his neck. In my experience, if you are mounted in a real fight, you will have mere seconds to escape before you will be so severely beaten that you will be unable to fight back effectively. Work these two escapes relentlessly until you can do them in your sleep. James.
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Old 07-19-2004, 06:15 AM   #18
Michael Neal
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
I'd say the best strategy is getting up as soon as you possibly can, or even, better still - not ending up on the ground in the first place
That is a good strategy but it is not always going to work that way
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Old 07-19-2004, 06:56 AM   #19
Ian Upstone
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Re: ground fighting

You're right Michael. It's not always going to work that way, but like you say, it's a good plan to have!

As for me, I would try to stay on my feet at all costs, as I know that if I went down, I'd probably stay down, and that would be the end of me. Hopefully studying aikido will increase my chances of staying up in the first place...

I think that's also perhaps why many people who study arts with no ground fighting make a point of trying to learn some in case it does happen. And I don't think it's about people doubting aikido - it's about doubting their own ability at it.
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Old 07-19-2004, 09:32 AM   #20
nothingness
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Re: ground fighting

Just my 2 cents worth:

I assume that one is good at a close range fight as an Aikidoka. Learning newaza is not that hard. There is a saying in Judo :"Newaza one year, nagewaza ten years." I don't think you have to be really proficient in ground fight to learn to escape from it. Learning the basic will be sufficient. At the very least, you can always ask one of your buddies who is doing a ground fight about a proper spyder guard. Learning this methods should give you a sufficient time to resist a ground attack and buy you time to get up again.


The key in newaza for the attacker is to keep the condition static. The key for the defender is to keep the condition dynamic.

One catch about newaza for Akidoka is that (pardon me) usually Aikidokas are not physically strong built. Newaza requires strong muscles, especially strong forearms.


Best wishes,

Last edited by nothingness : 07-19-2004 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 07-19-2004, 09:38 AM   #21
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ground fighting

Hmm, some of the aikidoka I know have the strongest forearms...buki waza has its good points, even if its not classical/koryu...

RT

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Old 07-19-2004, 11:16 AM   #22
kironin
 
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Ian Upstone wrote:
I think that's also perhaps why many people who study arts with no ground fighting make a point of trying to learn some in case it does happen. And I don't think it's about people doubting aikido - it's about doubting their own ability at it.
There is also the point for some of us that we are actively practicing strategies that make it very hard to take us down being aware that is not where our strengths lie (A Clint Eastwood movie quote comes to mind). I have done enough Newaza with Judo and BJJ to know it takes a lot of energy even when you are doing your best to stay relaxed and efficient. From a SD point of view, it's not ideal even if you do it well.

came across this interesting site this weekend while randomly surfing,
http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...port/mehdi.htm

Quote:
Mehdi's view was that a good throw can make ground fighting unnecessary. And even if the fight goes on, you are going to be in a much better position after dropping or slamming your opponent onto the ground from five feet up in the air, no matter how you look at it. Ukemi or no ukemi, it hurts.

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Old 07-19-2004, 12:18 PM   #23
Michael Neal
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
I have done enough Newaza with Judo and BJJ to know it takes a lot of energy even when you are doing your best to stay relaxed and efficient. From a SD point of view, it's not ideal even if you do it well.
The best newaza experts I have sparred with use almost no strength at all. They use all technique, squirming around like a snake and methodically getting better positions.

Being able to escape a pin or get a dominant position is very important in a self defense situation, don't assume that your Aikido will keep you off the ground. Think of all the mistakes you make during training, this will also happen in a confrontation regardless of how skilled you are. If your attacker has wrestling experience and you make a slight error you will likely be taken to the ground.

Also when people get thrown they often panic a grasp firmly to the person throwing them, this could put you in a dangerous ground situation as well.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:04 PM   #24
Ed Stansfield
 
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
James Finley wrote:
you owe it to yourself to learn two escapes: an escape from a headlock on the ground and an escape from the full mount (opponent has you mounted).
This thread's moved on a little but anyway . . .

The headlock on the ground I can visualise (though I'm not sure about the escape) but what's "the full mount"?

[sounds of people tsk ing at my ignorance]


Best,

Ed

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

Winston Churchill, 1930.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:07 PM   #25
kironin
 
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
...
Also when people get thrown they often panic a grasp firmly to the person throwing them, this could put you in a dangerous ground situation as well.
yes, I am aware of all this Michael.

like I said we have strategies to prevent this.

you of course can play "what if?" all day.

Craig

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