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Old 08-15-2004, 07:20 AM   #26
Zato Ichi
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Shaun, nothing makes people crazier than being told they can't have something they want. Intimating that you know the true story and then telling folks you won't share the details is a recipe for an on-line feeding frenzy. You're really better off not saying anything.
This is easily the most sensible thing anyone's said in this thread so far. Now that temper's are flaring (although, Craig, I think you need to chill out: given the smilies all over Larry's post, it seems like he's just fooling around), perhaps it's time to let this one die a quiet death.
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:17 AM   #27
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Thanks Hori, my entire post was meant in a comic air (hence the preponderance of smilies). Didn't mean to harm or hurt anyone's feelings. I have actually done some Ki Aikido and I respect what they do very much. As I do with most styles I've come across. There's always something to learn.

The reason for the comic approach was because I really thought the thread was going nowhere and becoming comical and that the whole my Sensei vs your Sensei way of thinking does nothing to save one's a$$ in the dojo or out of it or prove anything about one's ability. How we train and how correctly we train is what is important, not how many duels our teacher had or who beat whom.

Relax Craig, I never intended to put down the Ki school or anything. If you feel this way, my apologies to you. Maybe my ignorance isn't so obvious after all.

Onegaishimasu.
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-15-2004, 06:51 PM   #28
acot
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

This thread is so entertaining. The internet is especailly good at telling stories. If their is a story to tell why not make a big deal. We are taking about an even that likely took place more then 10 years ago, or perhaps 15 years ago. It seem that the actual people involved have moved on to bigger and better things. But I really encourage people to keep posting, because gossip makes for some good reading material.

Cheers
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Old 08-15-2004, 07:32 PM   #29
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Try 30

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-16-2004, 05:19 AM   #30
Michael Cardwell
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Since this is a descution about Steven Seagul, I thought I would make a quick committe on him and see if anyone else agrees.Anyway after seeing Seagul teach and pactice his classes, like in the Path Beyond Thought, does anyone else think that his style of aikido has de-evoled back into it's aiki jujutsu roots?
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Old 08-16-2004, 06:16 AM   #31
mj
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
On another note though, exactly what Aikido technique allows you to break your opponent's leg? (Inquiring minds wanna know).

LC
Tripping over the hakama.

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Old 08-16-2004, 06:50 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Yea, but shodokan stylists generally don't wear hakama....
RT (George is right on line here...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-16-2004, 07:02 AM   #33
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
Tripping over the hakama.
Ahhh, thank you Mark-san.

Now see, this is why we don't use hakama. Although, in so doing we are missing out on a very devastating hidden technique. Hmmm........

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-16-2004, 07:42 AM   #34
Chuck.Gordon
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Evolution

Michael Cardwell said:
Quote:
does anyone else think that his style of aikido has de-evoled back into it's aiki jujutsu roots?
First off, I'm no Seagal fan a'tall, in terms of his budo, though I find his movies occasionally amusing ...

So ... just curious. What leads you to the assumption that aikido has evolved (implying that it's moved to a higher level, yes?) beyond its aiki jujutsu roots?

Chuck

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Old 08-16-2004, 10:56 AM   #35
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
On another note though, exactly what Aikido technique allows you to break your opponent's leg? (Inquiring minds wanna know).
Tripping over the hakama.
I thought this thread had died the appropriate death. However, legitimate questions deserve answers. As for the technique in question, we used to practice many techniques from kicks - front, side, round, hook, back and back hooks kicks, to be exact. Each one either involves a trap against the body, or a finishing lock. In both cases, there is substantial torque applied to the ankle, knee and hip joints. Add just a bit of koshi during application, and unlike the myth about 99.9 % of the nikyo out there, there is most certainly going to be a break. Oh, we still do practice these techniques... and for the record, they are not related to aiki-jujitsu. Some may beg to differ, but the end justifies the means. Aiki-Jujitsu is a killing art. Last time I checked, although quite painful, and if it happened to you, you may have wished you were dead, no one typically dies from a broken ankle.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 08-16-2004, 10:59 AM   #36
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
This is easily the most sensible thing anyone's said in this thread so far. Now that temper's are flaring (although, Craig, I think you need to chill out: given the smilies all over Larry's post, it seems like he's just fooling around), perhaps it's time to let this one die a quiet death.

Temper's flaring? This has been a quiet offering of varied opinions, if you ask me. If you want heated, try the lastes Seagal thread over at aikido journal's message board.

Craig, thank you for the support. So rare, I had to put it out there in lights. You and I simply differ on opinions about most things. However, that is what makes the beer taste a bit sweeter, so all in all, a good thing.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 08-16-2004, 11:36 AM   #37
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Look, everybody likes the "legendary" stories of their art. I don't see wishing to know these stories as some kind of moral weakness, they're fun and interesting.
Agreed. However, since the origins of the thread come from individuals within the shodokan, I do believe that deference should be paid to Nariyama Kaiso. Should Nariyama Sensei have wanted it common knowledge, I am sure it would be just that.

Quote:
However, people have no fundamental "right" to know these stories.
One would think. Right?

Quote:
Shaun, nothing makes people crazier than being told they can't have something they want. Intimating that you know the true story and then telling folks you won't share the details is a recipe for an on-line feeding frenzy. You're really better off not saying anything.
Agreed. However, I have learned over the years that certain things need to be ignored, and certain things need a gentle hand guiding them back to the path. Then again, there are also those that deserve more of a direct approach, hence my response to one particular individual over at Aikido Journal. I have received quite a few private messages over that - some for and against my approach, in that case. In both cases, whether agreeing with how I handled it, or not, all agreed that that person was way out of line.

Quote:
People need to chill out about Seagal Sensei. This is a man who has some very complex personas which he has created over the years.
With all due respect, and I could be reading into how you chose to phrase this, the idea of creating his persona, at least any more than the rest of us, may be more myth than meal. Yes, this does happen in Hollywood. However, from the things that I have come to know, many of the things you hear about Seagal Sensei are out there to deal with the over-active sensitivities of other individuals and more likely tone down or obfuscate facts that tend to be thorns in the side of these same individuals, as opposed to embellishing fact so as to, and forgive me for the pun, make it more painful for them. However, and I am sure this to be true, "That may not always be the case!"

Quote:
There are a small number of people on this forum who actually know this man as a Teacher of Aikido, not as some show biz hyped myth. Don't expect them to be contributing to the general mythology any more than you are willing to provide un-flattering stories about your own teachers.
In this case, I was avoiding making disparaging statements about respected individuals from other organizations. I would think it more than a yard short of equitable if I had asked for individuals to not disrespect the Master of my former dojo on the one hand, and then lambasted someone else's teachers on the other.

I simply requested, or thought that I had, this issue to be dropped. Perhaps you are right, that I should have said nothing in the case, and let the thread die out. However, they rarely ever do without someone running their mouth off down the gamut of gossipy drivel.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 08-16-2004, 01:27 PM   #38
siwilson
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Anyone seen the "Belly Of The Beast"?



I hadn't realised that Steven Seagal had started doing comedy until I saw it. I hadn't laughed so hard in ages!!!

Mad!


Osu!
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Old 08-16-2004, 04:51 PM   #39
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Hi Shaun,

I know a few of those trapping and ankle lock techniques you are referring to. Imo though they ended up in joint dislocation (ankle, knee, hip etc.). I guess I think of a "leg break" as a break along or across the bones that connect the joints (femur, shin etc.) not joint dislocations. But I think now I understand the techs you are referring to.

Thanks for the input.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 08-16-2004, 08:01 PM   #40
PeterR
 
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Agreed. However, since the origins of the thread come from individuals within the shodokan
There you go again Shaun. The first post on this thread by a Shodokan person was number 10 (me) - after you posted. I responded because your gentle guiding sounded a lot like - well others have commented on that.

Quote:
In this case, I was avoiding making disparaging statements about respected individuals from other organizations.
And once again you suggest that you could. Lots and lots of nudge nudge wink wink and very little substance.

You are right somethings are best left alone and personally I regret one of the comments I made in the thread. It wasn't meant the way it was taken but so it was. Still if something is going to be said I would rather be direct.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-16-2004, 09:40 PM   #41
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
There you go again Shaun. The first post on this thread by a Shodokan person was number 10 (me) - after you posted. I responded because your gentle guiding sounded a lot like - well others have commented on that.


Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
In this case, I was avoiding making disparaging statements about respected individuals from other organizations.
And once again you suggest that you could. Lots and lots of nudge nudge wink wink and very little substance.

You are right some things are best left alone and personally I regret one of the comments I made in the thread. It wasn't meant the way it was taken but so it was. Still if something is going to be said I would rather be direct.
Peter-San,

My apologies. I did not go back and look at the beginning of the thread. My first comment I believed to be following someone who had intimate knowledge enough to have been either a member of, or close to another member of the Shodokan. However, upon re-reading what I originally posted, I realized that it probably was taken in a manner that I, too, did not mean. Again, apologies. I would like to add, though, that my comments with regards to the points you say I am "nudging" about were in direct response to Ledyard Sensei, a man whom I respect and believe deserved a reply. Perhaps this was better done privately.

I would ask you, had you been in my place, how would you have phrased your reply, should you have felt it important that others understand that you specifically refused to provide information, when the information would have seemed disparaging along side of a request to have others avoid doing the same? I think it important to also note, that I did not say which individuals, nor which organization. I see now, though, how it could have been, and probably was taken.

By the way, what exactly are you trying to infer with the phrase... "There you go, again..." I have not made any disparaging remarks about Shodokan, Nariyama Sensei, or the like. If my original comments are taken incorrectly, it actually tends to support the idea that I believe that Nariyama Sensei put Seagal Sensei in his place... Notice I said, if my comments were taken incorrectly. Read them again, with that in mind. Not that I am trying to win a pissing contest with you, but, in case you, like me, neglected to reflect on one's own earlier comments, it was not I who bandied about the old and fetid, "...my sensei is better than..." oh, you know where I am going with this.

In any case, should you ever find yourself in Los Angeles, you can ask Matsuoka Sensei yourself, and see what wonderful tidbits he might add that you might find very interesting, or even disturbing. As for me, although I don't recall you ever declaring that you might find yourself in New York, I would travel to Los Angeles to make the introduction myself. Heck, I'll even buy the sushi and beer after the training. As it happens, I am trying to plan the next excursion to Osaka, and would love to have the chance to come down to your neck of the woods, if the powers that be let me have a break and would write up a letter of introduction. That is a lot of ifs but the universe has a way of providing what is needed at the right time.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 08-17-2004, 01:42 AM   #42
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Smile Re: Evolution

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Michael Cardwell said:


First off, I'm no Seagal fan a'tall, in terms of his budo, though I find his movies occasionally amusing ...

So ... just curious. What leads you to the assumption that aikido has evolved (implying that it's moved to a higher level, yes?) beyond its aiki jujutsu roots?

Chuck
Well Chuck, as you said, I implied, and did not actually state, that aikido has moved past its aiki jujutsu roots. Evolution does not necessarily mean better, just that something adapted. To me Seaguls teaching style looks a lot more martial then other sensei's. I say that it reverted back because to me aikido is not so much about martial technique, as it is about harmony. Also, if you want to go the way of comparison, let me relate a story to you. A General by the name of Miura tried to to attack Osensei with all of his might, in order to test him. Miura was also a student of Takeda's and wanted to see what Osensei was made of. After failing, Miura said : "Your techniques are a world apart from those of the Daito Ryu. It is true Budo. Please enroll me as your disciple."
Anyway, just my thoughts about it, peace everyone.
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Old 08-17-2004, 08:27 AM   #43
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Apparently if something did happened, then the 2 people in question weren't practicing the art of peace, so if they let it happen, then it should be known.

There's nothing childish about wanting to know things. And nothing morally superior to those who don't want to know.
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Old 08-17-2004, 08:33 AM   #44
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Quote:
Your techniques are a world apart from those of the Daito Ryu. It is true Budo. Please enroll me as your disciple.
While interesting, this quote does not say much about what we practice today. Many whose skills are better than mine have commented on the fact that Ueshiba did many things that we today don't seem to quite replicate. My experience is awfully close to that. FWIW.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-17-2004, 09:38 AM   #45
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Re: Evolution

Michael Cardwell wrote:
Quote:
To me Seaguls teaching style looks a lot more martial then other sensei's.
Fair enough. Yeah, I find Seagal's interpretation of aikido pretty aggressive, but, in truth, he's not altogether different in his approach than some others. There's a WIDE variation of implementation in aikido, and he's really a point along a spectrum.

Quote:
I say that it reverted back because to me aikido is not so much about martial technique, as it is about harmony.
I'd say that 'good' aikido requires a balance of those things ...

However, there's a fair amount of sophistication in some Daito Ryu circles, and in some koryu circles you can find the same level of philospohical engagement ...

Quote:
Also, if you want to go the way of comparison, let me relate a story to you. A General by the name of Miura tried to to
I've read and heard a couple versions of that story, too. Remember that Ueshiba was, at the time, still (basically) teaching Daito Ryu, and what he did was predicated upon that training as well as his phenomenal personal skill.

Chuck

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Old 08-22-2004, 03:39 PM   #46
siwilson
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

Wow, I was totally taken as off topic! (Trying to lighten it up! )

Firstly, what is wrong with Seagal being more martial? Is Aikido a martial art or not? Yoshinkan certainly is!

Secondly, films like "Belly Of The Beast" are saddening to see the once great Nico trying to be Jet Li and looking frumpy and middle aged!

From what I have come across concerning Seagal I wouldnot be surprised if he had a fight with anyone. I know of meny similar instances, so it is no big deal!

Human - Only - Are - We!!!

Peace!


Osu!
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Old 09-15-2004, 05:37 AM   #47
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

I agree totally with George S. Ledyard.

Best wishes,
Iain.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:12 PM   #48
oudbruin
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Re: Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor

george says:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, everybody likes the "legendary" stories of their art. I don't see wishing to know these stories as some kind of moral weakness, they're fun and interesting.
.............>>>>>>>>>>.

People need to chill out about Seagal Sensei""
I SECOND THE MOTION - LETS FIND SOMEONE ELSE TO GOSSIP ABOUT- LIKE GWB'S RESERVIST RECORD...
Bruce
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