Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Michael Neal wrote: I bet you that if I started a thread on judoinfo.com about how I went to a few random Aikido dojos and tossed some Aikidoka around using techniques they were not trained in etc. I would get flamed by every Aikidoka around. It appears like bragging and it would a jerkish thing to do.

Safe bet. That's why I posted my third point, the one about "3) I think you are right about using techniques in a judo class that people are not used to/expecting. That's an unfair advantage. If it happens by accident then fine. If it happens on purpose, well that's disrespectful and rude... " and "I totally see your point"

I guess I was more expecting: that part you just wrote to Peter -
"I probably overeacted at first in response to your initial post" to my comment about the people who commented in this thread were other competitors and not as disrespectful as you seemed to indicate.

Michael Neal wrote: I also am basing my observations on other threads that I have read here on Aikiweb for several years, not just this one. This is not the first debate here we have had on Aikido vs. Judo. I have seen so many comments like "Judo is just a sport ... yada yada yada " that it naturally irritates me. Just like If I posted saying something like "Aikido is just spiritual yoga," that would irritate many Aikidoka. The fact is Aikidoka constantly take swipes at Judo, but when the tables are turned the same Aikidoka have a fit. I remember my Aikido instructor take some swipes at Judo a few times as well.

Well, I can see a nerve was touched. To me, when I read someone post "Aikido is just spiritual yoga," I think - oh too bad they don't train the we way we do, and then I try to explain to the person that not all aikido is practiced the same way. If the person just wants to "know what they know" then I give up. It seems like you could do the same with the different factions of Judo. I've seen some really good and really so-so Judo myself.

Oh well. You seem to be at peace now with Peter, and that's fine. I learned a lot lurking in this discussion and I thank you for your contribution and your passion.

Rob

My little tiff with Micheal laid aside.

Rob Liberti wrote: Safe bet. That's why I posted my third point, the one about "3) I think you are right about using techniques in a judo class that people are not used to/expecting. That's an unfair advantage. If it happens by accident then fine. If it happens on purpose, well that's disrespectful and rude... "

Well not really if it is legal.

After my Judo experience I know my strengths and weaknesses derived from my Aikido experience. I know I can shut down most attempts but not all but I am also seriously weak when if comes to offense. I can counter much easier than I can instigate and it is here where I tend to use techniques learned in Aikido the most. As long as those techniques are not outside the acceptable range than a Judoka should be glad they are being used - the whole point of a randori match is to discover a technique that your opponent is not used to or expecting (otherwise he will shut you down). Not rude at all.

I am not that good at either Judo or Aikido and I know it. The thing is though that Judo offers a good counter point to Aikido. In the context of your chosen art it is very easy to become blinded to your own beliefs. Judo guys convinced all Aikido people are wussies and always will be vs Aikidoists looking down on other arts that choose to mix it up. There is a huge technical overlap between the two arts and the training approach of one over the other can only benefit the other. I expect to be dominated in a Judo dojo by those that practice Judo more than I - nature of the beast - but it is interesting analyzing where you do well and where you do not. Still freaked out how I perform on the ground - definately counter to conventional wisdom.

the whole point of a randori match is to discover a technique that your opponent is not used to or expecting (otherwise he will shut you down). Not rude at all.

Well, that's certainly a fair point for you specific situation, and I didn't intend to criticise your actions. My thoughts were that we were talking about the context of techniques which were outside the acceptable range because he wrote "using techniques they were not trained in etc." I didn't mean to imply you were cheating.

My thoughts on randori were to give you more practice doing known and expected techniques in more and more sophistocated ways given increasing drama (speed, intensity, power of resistance and attempts at reversals, etc.). So the techniques would all by known, but set up differently, and done with less direct arm muscling. That's been my limited experience. No offense intended.

Rob

Well not really if it is legal. After my Judo experience I know my strengths and weaknesses derived from my Aikido experience. I know I can shut down most attempts but not all but I am also seriously weak when if comes to offense. I can counter much easier than I can instigate and it is here where I tend to use techniques learned in Aikido the most. As long as those techniques are not outside the acceptable range than a Judoka should be glad they are being used - the whole point of a randori match is to discover a technique that your opponent is not used to or expecting (otherwise he will shut you down). Not rude at all.

I guess then it would be fair enough for me to start tossing Aikidoka around with Judo throws because koshinage is a legitimate Aikido technique.

If you show up to my dojo, and we are doing randori, then by all means, koshi away. People will generally say things like "cool" or "good one". What's your point?

Rob

My point is that there were people criticising me earlier for using Judo throws when I was doing Aikido but they don't seem to have the same problem with Aikidoka using Aikido techniques on Judoka.

What I was irritated about earlier was people going to Judo clubs and putting people in wrist locks and such,. While those technically may be part of the Judo syllabus in the the katas, they are not allowed in Judo randori. It is sort of like doing Judo randori and then kicking someone in the face all of the sudden and then saying that the Judoka you experienced do not know how to deal with strikes.

While on the other hand, all of the people I threw with Judo throws in my Aikido class wanted to mix it up with me. They either began to grapple with me during training or were working with me during open mat period.

As far as I know koshis are a part of Aikido so you'd be fine there....Michael...

Michael Neal wrote: I guess then it would be fair enough for me to start tossing Aikidoka around with Judo throws because koshinage is a legitimate Aikido technique.

Not in Shodokan it's not.

It's only in the non-randori ones.

But Paul, there were people who are not fine with it including some members of the Aikido dojo I trained at. They want to paint me as some kind of brute or something.

Here is a quote from Robert Rumpf's (a member of my former Aikido Dojo) Aikiblog. He could not be more wrong about my motivations.

The problem in this discussion (and with Michael and many others) seems to be that they see martial arts as only a chance to match himself up against others. This means that learning is a distant priority at best. Michael would cross-train not to learn Aikido technique, but to try out his techniques on Aikidoka. Most likely he'd find someone of the level of relative ignorance about Judo where his stuff would actually work and at that point he would 1) feel better about himself 2) convince them to take up Judo. This is all fine and good, but it doesn't help either Michael or that other person to learn Aikido at all. The interesting part is that in the short term, this goal-oriented learning with respect to fighting won't even detract from his ability to fight. If you focus on one thing, you get better at it, at least to a point. You get better at it until the problems that are intrinsic to you destroy your ability to push forward (physical limitations, mental limitations, old age, etc.). At this point, you've hit an impasse. Not only have you hit an impasse, but because you have walked so far down what is fundamentally an easy path (one so suited to your nature and with so little external challenges in terms of paradigm), the idea of backtracking to the beginning and taking a more difficult rode is unappealing and abhorrent, if it the thought even occurs. This one-sidedness is the reason that I believe caused O'Sensei to ban competition. When you compete, you come to focus your practice around winning within those rules. After all, competition is very compelling and fun. Its hard to avoid the focus on making your technique work well in competition.

The thing is, I never threw Robert with a Judo throw, only people who wanted to mix it up and grapple with me or try out new things so I really do not know where he is coming from.

Mark Johnston wrote: Not in Shodokan it's not. It's only in the non-randori ones.

So koshinage is not legal in Shodokan randori?

Nope - it is classed as Judo afaik.

Well that rules out Shodokan for me then, I think my Aikido options have completely run out.

hah!

No hip throws for us because it would just turn into a Judo match...think about it.

We do get face contact, though.

Its funny Mark, for some unknown reason I have dreams about Aikido all of time and as you all know by now I can not seem to keep myself away from discussions about it. But I at the same time I hate so much about it. It is very puzzling to me, logically I should not have this much interest in something I don't seem to have an interest in practicing.

Well I came from Judo and it took me over 3 years to adjust, then another 3 years to start learning - and I have enjoyed the last (my 7th) year.

I pretty much agree with the third paragraph that you quoted from Robert Rumpf's blog - if you are considering "all competition all the time". What I learned here on aikiweb was that the schools that taught competition were overall cooperative in nature and probably compete in a similar way (only with much more "defined" rules) as I do with my sempai, and dohai, and the rare kohai - to improve and not so much to "win". Once "winning" becomes the primary focus over learning and helpnig your partner improve as well, I'm pretty much against competition for the exact reasons as described in that third paragraph. I will certainly take you at your word that you are not all about winning no matter the cost. It erally does seem like you should go try Jason Delucia sensei's dojo. It is excellent, and I think they will not have any problem with your trying to get koshinage in randori.

Rob

Michael, just my opinion, but I think you should go find some place to train in aikido where you can find some other people to roll and bang with, in addition to practicing techniques via a kata paradigm (if I had found a judo school where these things were taught in balance, I might still be doing judo). I know it's presumptious of me, but the amount of time I read your posts on aikido topics on this board and others, it sure seems like you miss it.

That said, I'm taking the popular road of saying that I think both randori and kata training are of merit and getting to have a balance of shiai and kata is, I think, an extremely important piece of any budoka's development -- I also know that I'm not experienced enough to know what that balance is -- just what I like being able to do. I like to be able to put the pads on and bang with the strikers. I like rolling with the grapplers. It's fun to spar with MMA rules.

I think the same level of relaxed intent and response is required to function within each paradigm -- even if the conventions and goals for each vary. I also disagree with the notion that just because each is competitive that it somehow limits it to only be about winning. I train in these environments because it teaches me more about myself and the kind of options I have in different physical and emotional situations (just like aikido!).

Having said that, I also like training in a system that has an overriding philosophy (options for blending and redirection of conflict) with which I can greatly relate on a personal level. I enjoy the variety of techniques and levels of sophistication required to implement them (really layered onion sums it up quite well). I am challenged to work on the precise movements and mind-body coordination required to make these techniques work with minimal effort against varying degrees of resistance and intent. I greatly enjoy my training partners, deeply respect and admire my instructors and love the facility at which I train.

Getting to randori and shiai with others under different conditions is fun, great exercise, occaisionally humbling and always educational. They're like good friends that I can always visit and pick up where I left off. Aikido has grown to have a much more special place for me though, like a close relation that is at times infuriating and vexing, but to whom I always feel a deep connection.

When I am at a competition I do everything that it takes to win, when I am training I do everything it takes to be a better Judoka. The two goals can coexist.

When I am at a competition I do everything that it takes to win, when I am training I do everything it takes to be a better Judoka. The two goals can coexist.

Yes, of course they can - but not in the "all competition all the time" idea which I believe you are not in.

Peace - Rob

To be honest it would not be a good idea for me to practice in a non-competitive Aikido dojo because I am afraid of hurting people. If I failed an Aikido technique during practice I would move right into a Judo technique just to keep my flow going and not to get in a habit of stopping when things fail, another bad habit I saw in Aikido by the way. I think alot of Aikidoka are not prepared to take ukemi from many Judo throws and I would also likley piss off the instructor by not using pure Aikido all the time.

That rant was actually inspired by this post of yours on the thread "I think I'm done with Aikido," and not by this discussion. It was a somewhat different context. I had thought that the context was obvious to someone who had read the whole entry, as it started with a quote from that thread.

The thing is, I never threw Robert with a Judo throw, only people who wanted to mix it up and grapple with me or try out new things so I really do not know where he is coming from.

This why I used the word "would" to indicate the statement as being speculative, as opposed to a statement in the past tense that would actually indicate an action that had occurred.

I was speculating about your future behavior, as indicated by your statement shown above. My speculation was tempered by my experiences with others who have mixed martial arts experiences, but I think not unreasonable considering the evidence provided.

This discussion was obviously not something I felt like getting into on a thread, as it was too personal of a point and requires a lot of context, so I kept it relatively to myself. I shall now keep it even further to myself.

Rob

Michael Neal wrote: Well that rules out Shodokan for me then, I think my Aikido options have completely run out.

So you were planning on using Judo throws in Shodokan randori Michael? Interesting.

I guess you don't really want to learn Aikido but just compete and hope to show how Judo is better. Or am I mistaken?
LC

Sumi-otoshi is a Judo throw and is part of Shodokan (I have translated it into a hikikome-otoshi movement that works ((yes I said a sumi-otoshi that works)) in randori). Yoko-wakare could be seen as Aiki-like. Mae-otoshi could can be seen as a reverse ippon seoinage. Shomen-ate is o-uchi-gari. Gedan-ate is tani-otoshi. Drop knee seionage where you push the arm instead of pulling it because they don't grab. O-goshi is as much about rotation and and connection as it is about the hip. Throwing techniques are different branches on different trees in the same forest.

There is a lot you could bring to Aikido Michael and there is a lot Aikido can do for you, as dumb as it sounds.

But Aikido is not Judo, they are not twins. Only people who had studied for a long time would be able to appreciate the similarities and the differences.

I know Aikido and Judo are not the same but they do share alot of techniques as you mentioned, but I guess if I used them I would be accused by people like Larry of trying to prove Judo was better. You just can't win no matter what you do, there are just too many people in Aikido that are intimidated by Judo I guess. I mean Larry had no problems using Aikido techniques against Judoka when it suited him to do so, but I guess that is OK though.

Personally I don't think that there is any doubt that Judo aquits itself much better than Aikido....look at MMA, Pride, UFC etc Judo groundwork is the new Bruce Lee.

Before that, Judo was the one getting abuse from the percussion based arts.