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Old 06-08-2005, 08:25 AM   #176
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

And Aikidoka need a commited attack in order to get their stuff to work, something Judoka don't offer too often until they already have you off balance.

I would love to experience Shodokan Aikido randori and I am disappointed that there are no schools around me. And if I got put on my butt I would smile and enjoy the whole experience. But right now I have not had that experience so I can only base my views on what I know from my own encounters.

Does anyone know the closest Shodokan dojo to Washington D.C?
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Old 06-08-2005, 08:41 AM   #177
rob_liberti
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

This will be more of a "clue" or a "lead" than direct help but one time when I was training in Japan I met an American guy who was very into Tomiki aikido and he said he trained in the D.C. area. He was very new. You appear passionate enough about this, maybe you could go visit Peter's dojo in Japan and try it out there.

As far as "And Aikidoka need a commited attack in order to get their stuff to work" - I have to say that I used to try to work towards moving such that the only threat is a commited attack. I'm finding that I need to have a mind of attack in order to do that - but I think that's a progression in learning aikido.

Rob
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Old 06-08-2005, 08:52 AM   #178
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
And Aikidoka need a commited attack in order to get their stuff to work, something Judoka don't offer too often until they already have you off balance.

I would love to experience Shodokan Aikido randori and I am disappointed that there are no schools around me. And if I got put on my butt I would smile and enjoy the whole experience. But right now I have not had that experience so I can only base my views on what I know from my own encounters.

Does anyone know the closest Shodokan dojo to Washington D.C?
Hey Michael,

Actually the way we do things we don't actually need a committed attack, but a committed one makes things a helluvalot easier though. The Toshu and Tanto Randori we do is based on each side trying to get off an effective technique while not giving anything away that the other side can use e.g. committed attacks, self inflicted kuzushi etc., much like Judo randori.

Not sure if there are any Shodokan schools in the D.C. area (I think there may be one in Baltimore, MD though). The best place to check may be www.tomiki.org. Up to January this year I visited the D.C. area regularly, but since there were no Shodokan dojos nearby I shopped around other styles until I settled on practicing at Capital Aikikai in Silver Spring. They did seem interested in me doing a resistance randori seminar though, maybe I should contact em about it and let you know if it works out.

It's great to cross train with the Judo though, one learns so much about kuzushi applications against resistance, helps a lot for our Toshu randori practice.

Just some thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 06-08-2005 at 08:57 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 06-08-2005, 10:43 AM   #179
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

As far as committed attacks, I have been struggling with this. In the rules of engagement in at least BJJ that I do two guys approach each other with the intent to grapple.

When I try to engage from my "aikido distance" a judo guy or a grappler will simply not play my game, I won't play his...so we posture round and round.

Eventually someone has to enter and start the grappling in order to train the close in skills.

My point is in a "real fight" I'd never enter, i'd simply walk off or keep distance until he came with a committed attack. either way I win from my point of view (at least on the point of intial tactical advantage).

This simply does not enter into the paradigm of the grappling arts during training....at least in my experiences. I think it is important and makes a huge difference in the interaction.
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:14 AM   #180
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Hi Kevin,

I'm just currious...what do you do with a standard boxer's shuffle step balanced attack with combinations? Esp. with a wall at your back? Don't feel bad if you don't have an answer...I don't have a good one either. This is not to say that 'aikido doesn't work in that situation'...just that I have a hard time sometimes imagining MY aikido working in that situation...

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-08-2005, 11:28 AM   #181
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Kevin,

That is why I think Aikido is good at self defense but not ideal in a style vs. style match, especially against grappling.

I think my ideal martial art would be a combination of Judo, Aikido, and Muay Thai or Boxing, it seems like all ranges and scenerios would be covered by that.
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:50 AM   #182
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Just for future reference guys, posting threads like "Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists" is a sure way to get a flame war started.

Just think of it like this, I am government worker so I basically sit around all day and do nothing. So I surf the internet endlessly on the topic that interests me the most, Judo. Normally I am at peace with the universe hanging out over at judoinfo.com until I decide to take a glimpse of what is going on at other martial arts forums.

I then read things like "judo is just a sport," "Judo is not an effective martial art," "I tossed around some Judoka today" etc. and then it is game on. What do you expect to happen when you start subjects like this?. And then many of you get so upset when I then decide to tell you what I think of Aikido.

Don't throw chum in the water if you don't want to attract sharks, this time you ony attracted a relatively harmless medium sized reef shark but you never know what will show up next time.
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:53 AM   #183
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Just kdding about the shark analogy , it just sounded so good to say "don't throw chum in the water"
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:56 AM   #184
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I tend to agree with you. I probably already mentioned this, but this is close to what the Army has based our modern combatives program on. We start out with ground fighting skills, (BJJ), moving out to mid range, striking arts of Muay Thai and American Boxing, Weapons...essentially the Dog Brothers.

I find AIkido to be an asset, but to be quite honest, with the full speeds we are working at, you pretty much blow right through the mid range that aikido works so well in....that is unless you have weapons, or the threat of weapons. Frankly It is probably my lack of experience in aikido at combat speeds is why it doesn't work for me, but then I think that is the point Michael is trying to make. It is something that I am working through..I'll get back to you in about 5 years!

While we do have decent basic takedowns, I think judo is probably a little better than aikido from a tactical standpoint. I find myself wishing I had more skills in this area.

I must admit, I was very, very skeptical about the program when I first saw it....I really had issue with the base in groundfighting. After working with it for the last year though, I am sold on it as a methodology. Still don't agree with the "go to the ground mentality", but you have to start somewhere learning and it provides a solid base to build up from...literally.

The programs motto is the "winner of the fight is the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun." I think this puts combat and self defense in the proper perspective. So, for at least the army, groundfighting is about surviving long enough to get help. (you are never alone in combat!).

We are not about training people to be good hand to hand fighters, but to be good warriors...that is the key. I think this is the key to all martial arts and what I like about them the most. Good hard training, and proper training builds character and confidence. It's not the technical skills necessarily.

What is amazing is that I have not seen a faster, more efficient way of turning out competent fighters in a minimum amount of time. It builds muscle memory and skill very, very quickly.

Be careful though not to compare this model's objectives against aikido. While they have many similar goals, I do not think they are aligned. Army Combatives is about building warriors and skills to survive in combat. Aikido is about building the warrior spirit and becoming a better person...through learning about options to resolve conflict, it gives you choices. A slight variance, but an important one when you are talking endstate of your training.
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Old 06-08-2005, 12:02 PM   #185
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
find AIkido to be an asset, but to be quite honest, with the full speeds we are working at, you pretty much blow right through the mid range that aikido works so well in....that is unless you have weapons, or the threat of weapons. Frankly It is probably my lack of experience in aikido at combat speeds is why it doesn't work for me, but then I think that is the point Michael is trying to make
Yep, exactly my point. As an Aikidoka you have just a fraction of an instant to make your move or the grappler will be all over you.
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Old 06-08-2005, 12:24 PM   #186
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Yep, exactly my point. As an Aikidoka you have just a fraction of an instant to make your move or the grappler will be all over you.
Which is why you want to study aikido correctly...to ensure that you have the proper skills to prevent this from happening! correctly is slowly and methodically until you can do it full speed, reading your opponents intention through understanding him from the "inside" so you can move and be proactive BEFORE he moves! That could take years of training, and IMHO, a worthwile, long term goal!

Of course, some of us can't afford to wait that long, so we have to learn for other ways to compensate for our mistakes with those "heathen" arts of grappling!
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Old 06-08-2005, 12:34 PM   #187
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

yes exactly, I don't want to wait 20 years before I can use what I am practicing effectively. I see people like Jim practice Aikido and I have no doubt he could use it effectively.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-08-2005 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 06-08-2005, 01:05 PM   #188
rob_liberti
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Ron,

When the boxer is advancing at you, you start making more and more space by lowering your stance more and more. When he follows lower and lower, you throw a lot jab and then clobber him with a hey-maker (we call it yokomenuchi). That's what some boxers do too.

I've seen plenty of very effective people come to aikido class, learn to relax more thoroughly, and get REALLY good. I know a few guys who fought many fights in kiokushin (sp?!) who started aikido and said - "I really wish I had learned aikido first!". I don't plan to be in much combat, and hopefully I have 20+ years to work on things, so that's my choice. You can have yours. My opinion is that the average Judo guy is probably better off maritally than the average aikido guy. All of my best Judo friends have toruble with their knees as they got older. I admit that some of my aikido friends have knee troubles too, but certainly not as many - in my circles anyway.

Rob
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Old 06-08-2005, 01:22 PM   #189
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Man Aikido kills my lower back! BJJ kills my groin and hips! Muay Thai hurts my legs, arms, and face! (whine mode off) Knees are good to go!
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Old 06-08-2005, 01:27 PM   #190
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I was always alot more sore after a hard Aikido practice than Judo because those mats were so friggin hard. We have a spring loaded gymnastics mat in Judo, very nice!
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Old 06-08-2005, 01:30 PM   #191
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

See that! Judo is for wimps!

Ron (sorry, that just slipped out...)

ps man, I hope i don't have to pay for that!

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Old 06-08-2005, 01:43 PM   #192
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I am not sure how long I would last in Judo if I had to practice it on those tatami mats put right over a concrete slab.
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Old 06-08-2005, 01:56 PM   #193
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Don't throw chum in the water if you don't want to attract sharks, this time you ony attracted a relatively harmless medium sized reef shark but you never know what will show up next time.
See I warned you but I guess it is too late

Shark Attack -- Off New Jersey!
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Old 06-08-2005, 03:20 PM   #194
rob_liberti
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Michael Neal,

I just re-read the entire thread, and I see a few things that seem to need to be said:
1) I think you are wrong in that you are upset about stories from aikido people picking on Judo, and we'll I just looked for it and didn't see it AND the almost every person who had a victory story practiced aikido with some competitive element except Craig Hocker. He probably used his body better than the guy he was training against, and that's probably his specialty.

2) I think you got a bit of a bum rap. It seems clear to me that you are trying to argue what you consider to be an obsurdity, and people are mis-percieving that as trolling. I don't think you are trolling, but I think what I mentioned in point 1 worked against you in many people's eyes.

3) I think you are right about using techniques in a judo class that people are not used to/expecting. That's an unfair advantage. If it happens by accident then fine. If it happens on purpose, well that's disrespectful and rude. Like-wise, if you show up to my aikido dojo and suprise a beginner by throwing them to the floor and choking them out, you will most-likely get kicked in the face by any of the sempai near you, while the others who are further away will be grabbing their bokken. I totally see your point in the reverse.

Bottom line, it makes sense to me that people who practice competing will be better at it than people who do not. Judo is wonderful and so is aikido. As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to stay even after people stop posting about their aikido experience against judo people.

Rob
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Old 06-08-2005, 03:30 PM   #195
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Interesting comments.

Y'know the more I hear folks here talk about how sad their Aikido skill is (and by extension Aikido, whether it be explicitly or implicitly stated), how many years it takes to get martially effective at it and the gross misinformation regarding certain technical aspects, I start to wonder whether or not I am doing the same Aikido or something else entirely that just happens to share the name with what some of you folks are talking about.

I guess there is a point to that "Culture of Martial Mediocrity" thread after all.
Quote:
As an Aikidoka you have just a fraction of an instant to make your move or the grappler will be all over you.
Imho this sort of Aikidoka is nuts to be facing a grappler since he obviously has no idea what he is doing and how Aikido operates as a "martial' art.

Gives a good gauge as to the impressions out there in "Aikido" world though.

Gambatte.
LC

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Old 06-08-2005, 04:01 PM   #196
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I guess another point is that the people I know that I think are martially effective have been training a good 20, 25+ years in their hard style arts too. Are we talking about the same level of "effective"?! (Compared to what I think is "effective", I'd say my aikido skill is "sad".) If someone with 2 years of training just about any martial art can come whoop me in a fight, I think they could have probably whooped me regardless of their 2 years of training! I just went to Jason Delucia sensei's dojo and did about an hour of randori practice and I was able to hold my own with the people who only had a _short_ time in and I never practice that way - big deal. (By the way, I have nothing but respect for that kind of practice. I also think there are important things that *can* be learned in the cooperative model that you would have a hell of a time working on in a purely competitive model. I can't judge them on this yet, because I only saw one class.)

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 06-08-2005 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 06-08-2005, 06:39 PM   #197
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
1) I think you are wrong in that you are upset about stories from aikido people picking on Judo, and we'll I just looked for it and didn't see it AND the almost every person who had a victory story practiced aikido with some competitive element except Craig Hocker. He probably used his body better than the guy he was training against, and that's probably his specialty.
I bet you that if I started a thread on judoinfo.com about how I went to a few random Aikido dojos and tossed some Aikidoka around using techniques they were not trained in etc. I would get flamed by every Aikidoka around. It appears like bragging and it would a jerkish thing to do.

I also am basing my observations on other threads that I have read here on Aikiweb for several years, not just this one. This is not the first debate here we have had on Aikido vs. Judo. I have seen so many comments like "Judo is just a sport ... yada yada yada " that it naturally irritates me. Just like If I posted saying something like "Aikido is just spiritual yoga," that would irritate many Aikidoka. The fact is Aikidoka constantly take swipes at Judo, but when the tables are turned the same Aikidoka have a fit. I remember my Aikido instructor take some swipes at Judo a few times as well.

Thats what I mean by not throwing chum in the water if you don't want some sharks to stop by.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-08-2005 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 06-08-2005, 06:48 PM   #198
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Rob, I agree with you that cooperative practice is important, we do alot of it in Judo as well. It is how you build your skills so you can then use it in randori. Randori is only on piece of the puzzle. But in my view it is a very important piece.
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Old 06-08-2005, 06:56 PM   #199
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I bet you that if I started a thread on judoinfo.com about how I went to a few random Aikido dojos and tossed some Aikidoka around using techniques they were not trained in etc.
I've seen your comments at Judoinfo - you appear to do that quite frequently. I started the thread looking for experiences of people who are primarily Aikidoists cross-training in Judo. Definately not to show Aikido was better than Judo and I would think that most answers reflected that.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-08-2005, 07:30 PM   #200
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

The only comments I have made on judoinfo.com was basically in response to threads here to try and get more Judokas perspective. I remember duplicating this particular discussion there a while ago. I also was involved in an Aikido discussion both here and there regarding Aikidoka claims of taking on 4 or 5 Judoka in randori.

My involvement is almost always in response to some discussion started by an Aikidoka or claims made by them.

Any recent comments I have made that I remember are one thread stating how I got Aikido to work after several years of not using it, a praising of Aikido. And a more recent one where I suggested to someone who inquired about Aikido that it was worthwhile to practice, but that I though Shodokan would be more appropriate choice due to the randori.

In the same thread that I suggested taking Aikido, I also made a joke about Aikido spiritual practice by linking to one of the threads here. You should note that many Aikidoka here on Aikiweb were making fun of the same discussion.

Peter, I see no reason for this to keep going. I think most of us have reached a general consensus and there is no reason to keep arguing. I probably overeacted at first in response to your initial post but some of the stuff that was said afterwards was really insane. I did not even realize your total martial arts experience when first I read your post and knowing what I do now, I completely believe you. In fact, you could probably walk into my Judo dojo and throw me around a few times.


I think there was some misunderstanding going on on both sides and we should just leave it at that.
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