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Old 07-17-2004, 10:34 PM   #151
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

This subject hit home. I trained in Aikido for several years before playing around in Judo. When my Dojo closed I found myself full time in Judo. I decided to compete, well in my mind I was. The first few years I got spanked all over the floor. Following no resistance, I made my competitor's throws look spectacular.

After many falls and losses, I finally begin to get the hang of it and my losses became even less. Unlike Aikido, I suffered many injuries, minor, but constant so I returned back to Aikido. It was not until my return to Aikido that I realized just how much I learned from Judo. My ukemi improved so much. Moving from my center was finally clear.

I highly recommend giving it a try. Judo compliments Aikido. Where Aikido is at arms length, Judo is body to body. As most fights go to the ground, Judo goes to the ground.
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Old 07-17-2004, 11:18 PM   #152
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
rodney jaime wrote:
Following no resistance, I made my competitor's throws look spectacular.
Forgive me but that sounds pretty strange.
You come into a competitive dojo where they expect resistance and you don't give them any.

Quote:
rodney jaime wrote:
As most fights go to the ground, Judo goes to the ground.
This has been neither proven nor disproven.
Personally, I've been in many scuffles from kindergarden up to 12th grade, and only one of them ended on the ground.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:19 AM   #153
Ian Williams
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Why break the grip to begin with? Why not use it?
I dunno, you tell me .. how ?


(actual question, not smart arse come back)

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
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Old 07-18-2004, 10:18 AM   #154
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
I dunno, you tell me .. how ?


(actual question, not smart arse come back)
Hey Ian,

Check out post #150 on page 5 of this thread. At the end I gave an example.

The technique is similar to if one applies gyaku gamae ate (sokumen) against double sleeve grab near the shoulder (similar to the hand position some Judoka may take, at least with one hand). Instead of breaking the grip, apply tegatana and drop weight into the crease above the elbow. This moves your partner's arm across his body and brings his shoulder toward you (or at least downward, breaking his posture) but does not break the grip. In this case one can go for Ko Soto Gari, De Ashi Harai maybe even Sumi Otoshi or something of the sort.

In fact it is because he keeps the grip that his shoulder starts to turn towards you, if he releases he can easily disengage and grab you again. The thing is though, in keeping his grip he may be able to use the turn to help him enter for Morote Seoi Nage, a modified Koshi Guruma or something that uses that line.

The nice thing about standing grappling in both arts is that no one technique is necessarily fool proof, there are so many counters. In fact I think Judo has helped me to improve my Aikido counters a hell of a lot in that regard.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-18-2004, 10:43 AM   #155
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I also found doing some judo, karate and jujitsu helped with my aikido too.
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Old 06-04-2005, 01:53 AM   #156
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I once had a guy visit my school. When he found out that I also trained and taught Aikido, he told me this story of an event that happened at one of his former schools.

This guy told me that once at his Korean Yudo school, a group of Aikido black belts came in and challenged their class.

He said it was the most fun he has ever had. Him and his friends got to execute all types throws and of 'show-taps' (fancy submissions typically done at demonstrations).

The Judo guys would even call out the name of the throw they were going to do before the match started, then go and do it.

He said that he personally bitch-slammed 3 aikido guys before the day was out. A bitch-slam, from what I gathered was equivelent to a bitch-slap. "If they want to wear dresses, then treat them like bitches." this guy said.

The guy continued, "When it had been proven that Aikido was the weaker art, we made them all hand us their black belts, then crawl out of our dojo."

He said that they decided to visit the Aikido guys at their next class. When that day came he said that him and his fellow judo black belts went over to their dojo and did a rowdy bunch challenge match on them. I asked him what a "rowdy bunch challenge match" was. He told me that this is where you and your guys go over to another dojo while they are in full practice. You go in and line up on the mats. Then, you yell, "GO!!!" And you and your boys proceed to whip everything in sight. He said that when they were finished it looked like somebody let off a sleeping bomb in that place. There were people in black skirts laying everywhere. He said that they were nice enough to leave their black belts, which they had collected earlier, laying on their unconscious owners when they left. And, that they sprayed painted "JUDO RULZ" on the wall next to the door. And on the wall next to the dressing rooms they painted, "Sensei should stop teaching and open up a laundry mat". In the bathroom they spray painted over the toilet paper dispenser , "Pull here for Aikido black belt."

I laughed at the story, then started our usual class.
Note: this guy didn't do well against any of my students in Randori.

Red Beetle

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Old 06-04-2005, 02:03 AM   #157
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Xu: I like the part about keeping your distance. I still think it's better to just pick up a rock and throw it at them though. Well... Maybe a brick or a cinder block would be better.

I know a guy who got pissed off and really threw a brick at this other guy. It knocked him retarded or something. The guy throwing the brick went to jail. He should have thrown something else (like a hot dog).

Red Beetle
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:55 AM   #158
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:

...

The guy continued, "When it had been proven that Aikido was the weaker art, we made them all hand us their black belts, then crawl out of our dojo."

He said that they decided to visit the Aikido guys at their next class. ... There were people in black skirts laying everywhere. He said that they were nice enough to leave their black belts, which they had collected earlier, laying on their unconscious owners when they left. And, that they sprayed painted "JUDO RULZ" on the wall next to the door. And on the wall next to the dressing rooms they painted, "Sensei should stop teaching and open up a laundry mat". In the bathroom they spray painted over the toilet paper dispenser , "Pull here for Aikido black belt."

IMHO…that behaviour is a more than a little repugnant. If the event actually happened (and who's ever heard of aikidoka doing a dojo invasion?), the judoka should have bested the aikidoka on the day they invaded and left it at that.

Everything else is just machismo / 'men behaving badly' (to quote the British TV sitcom). I don't think that Judo club, (or any other) would garner many new sign ups by encouraging such behaviour. IMHO.

YMMV.

Last edited by bob_stra : 06-04-2005 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:14 PM   #159
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
IMHO…that behaviour is a more than a little repugnant. If the event actually happened (and who's ever heard of aikidoka doing a dojo invasion?), the judoka should have bested the aikidoka on the day they invaded and left it at that.

Everything else is just machismo / 'men behaving badly' (to quote the British TV sitcom). I don't think that Judo club, (or any other) would garner many new sign ups by encouraging such behaviour. IMHO.

YMMV.
I really don't think it happened.
The guy was just trying to impress us.
I had beginners who handled him rather easily.
So, although the story was somewhat creative and humerous, I have never heard of anything like that happening.
Red Beetle
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Old 06-06-2005, 01:25 AM   #160
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I really don't think it happened.
The guy was just trying to impress us.
I had beginners who handled him rather easily.
So, although the story was somewhat creative and humerous, I have never heard of anything like that happening.
Red Beetle
Monty...next time be more clear in your initial post. You lose credibility when you omit important details like the above.

FWIW,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 06-06-2005, 02:15 AM   #161
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Sorry.
I thought it would fit nicely under a thread titled: Tales...

Red Beetle
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Old 06-06-2005, 02:32 AM   #162
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Well most of the tales were of actualy experiences not hear say.

Last week I showed up early for my AIkido class and took one of the Judo instructors for a ride. Great fun that.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-06-2005, 09:14 AM   #163
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

We have had 4 Aikidoka join our Judo club in last year or so, none of them have even been able to apply a single aikido technique on me even when I said it was fine to use it during randori with me.
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Old 06-06-2005, 09:34 AM   #164
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
We have had 4 Aikidoka join our Judo club in last year or so, none of them have even been able to apply a single aikido technique on me even when I said it was fine to use it during randori with me.
Not really wanting to get into an us vs them type thread, but surely this really boils down to their and your abilities at your respective arts, and the training paradigm into which they were trying to use their techniques.

I'm in no way assuming that if I walked into a judo dojo that I could apply an aikido technique on you in a randori, but that doesn't mean that aikido couldn't be applied, it just means that I couldn't apply it.

rgds

Bryan

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Old 06-06-2005, 10:02 PM   #165
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

To take it a bit further.

If I as an Aikido man walked into a Judo dojo and engaged in Judo randori with one of the regulars I would expect to be dominated all things being equal. Same goes for walking into a boxing ring and trying to box. Conversely a Judo guy trying to do Shodokan Aikido randori (all things being equal) will be dominated. I would expect a Judo guy to pick up Shodokan randori pretty quickly as there are quite a few similarities with the reverse also being true. This has been shown time and time again both in Judo and Shodokan Aikido dojos.

However, if we take an Aikidoist from another style other than Shodokan or a style which does Judo like randori (such as Yoseikan) and they decide to enter a Judo dojo I disagree completely with the premiss that they are toast and always will be.

First of all - those that do enter have already been self selected. They want to try something new and are not afraid to do so. With a good Budo background the learning curve can be very steep - Aikido taught right, even without randori, can provide that background.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-07-2005, 12:46 PM   #166
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

The vast majority of Aikido out there is not Shodokan and they do not do intense randori, they would most likely be toast.

You guys have never bothered to listen to word I have said here on Aikiweb about Judo and Aikido, you just get into defensive mode.

I have said for a very long time that it is the training methods that make a martial art effective, and if Aikido did more randori (as with Shodokan) it would be more likely to stand up to Judo. I have always said this over and over again but you all seem to choose to believe I am saying something else.
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Old 06-07-2005, 01:50 PM   #167
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I here ya Michael. AND understand where you are coming form. ...the question I have that goes unanswered is EFFECTIVE AT WHAT????

Everyone makes assumptions about what aikido is or isn't from their own perspective. We all think our perspective is the one that matters and that we define aikido. You can define aikido for yourself, but not for everyone else!

I think at some level you have to take aikido and make it yours. Sometimes I go slow and practice like we do in aikido dojo. Other times I train fast and hard at full speeds with punches kicks and good randori. The funny thing is that it turns into MMA when I do that!!! So is it still aikido?

It depends on the perspective. I still have the aiki spirit and my attitude is exactly the same, AND I am following principles. But I think, to the average aikidoka they would say "that's not aikido, thats MMA, or BJJ, or Judo, or something else!!!

Perspective is everything.

I don't disagree with you however about randori necessarily. Just not sure it belongs in EVERY dojo, as each has it's own purpose and overall I have found Aikidoka and aikido to be oriented towards a completely different goal than you or I may have at a particular time and situation!

Again, It helps to understand the boundaries of what you define as EFFECTIVE!
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Old 06-07-2005, 02:15 PM   #168
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
However, if we take an Aikidoist from another style other than Shodokan or a style which does Judo like randori (such as Yoseikan) and they decide to enter a Judo dojo I disagree completely with the premiss that they are toast and always will be.

First of all - those that do enter have already been self selected. They want to try something new and are not afraid to do so. With a good Budo background the learning curve can be very steep - Aikido taught right, even without randori, can provide that background.
This was really well said. If a really good Judo person joins an aikido dojo that doesn't focus on randori, but instead focuses on movements with symbolic attacks without directly lifting, pushing or pulling they are not going to be automatically in the top of the class either. But if they continue there for a while, they may find some pretty good benefits to their judo game. I've seen this happen a few times myself. I'm not saying that one of the average guys from the symbolic attack world of an aikido school would be anything other than a fish out of water in a Judo randori either until a similar amount of experience can be achieved - but I think Peter said it better than I could.

Rob
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Old 06-07-2005, 04:42 PM   #169
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
To take it a bit further.

If I as an Aikido man walked into a Judo dojo and engaged in Judo randori with one of the regulars I would expect to be dominated all things being equal. Same goes for walking into a boxing ring and trying to box. Conversely a Judo guy trying to do Shodokan Aikido randori (all things being equal) will be dominated. I would expect a Judo guy to pick up Shodokan randori pretty quickly as there are quite a few similarities with the reverse also being true. This has been shown time and time again both in Judo and Shodokan Aikido dojos.

However, if we take an Aikidoist from another style other than Shodokan or a style which does Judo like randori (such as Yoseikan) and they decide to enter a Judo dojo I disagree completely with the premiss that they are toast and always will be.

First of all - those that do enter have already been self selected. They want to try something new and are not afraid to do so. With a good Budo background the learning curve can be very steep - Aikido taught right, even without randori, can provide that background.
Peter, the Aikidoka that join Judo are always ahead of the game when compared to the other beginners and they progress much faster. But they are usually not prepared to go toe to toe with a Judoka that has some experience. For example, someone with 2 years Aikido experience will generally be tossed around like a rag doll by someone with 2 years Judo experience. I am sure there are exceptions, but this is true genrally speaking at least in my experience. If people don't want to belive me that that is their perogative.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-07-2005 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 06-07-2005, 04:59 PM   #170
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Peter, the Aikidoka that join Judo are always ahead of the game when compared to the other beginners and they progress much faster. But they are usually not prepared to go toe to toe with a Judoka that has some experience. For example, someone with 2 years Aikido experience will generally be tossed around like a rag doll by someone with 2 years Judo experience. I am sure there are exceptions, but this is true genrally speaking at least in my experience. If people don't want to belive me that that is their perogative.
Hi Michael:

I wouldn't want to speculate quite that specifically, but I agree with your point, more or less. I would inject the point that you're really talking about the vast majority of Aikido, but not some of the stuff practiced by a tiny few in Aikido and who can actually use Aikido (not an MMA, judo, karate, etc., version of Aikido).

The problem is that a lot of people, reading what you're saying, will either go "No way!" or worse yet "well, maybe that might happen at a dojo, but still Aikido would be great in a 'real fight' ". In other words, I'm just re-inforcing what you're saying and trying to curb what I know is a common thought that somehow, even if Aikido wouldn't do well in the ring, it would do well in a "real fight'. It will do OK, maybe, if the "real fight" is with someone who doesn't know how to fight, but against an experienced and aggressive fighter there's going to be a problem.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-07-2005, 05:04 PM   #171
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I agree, Aikido is an effective martial art. Judo actually incoporated some Aikido into their Kata.
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Old 06-07-2005, 06:35 PM   #172
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
For example, someone with 2 years Aikido experience will generally be tossed around like a rag doll by someone with 2 years Judo experience.
Duh!! I would expect no less in a Judo dojo where they would be doing Judo. However, the real question is how long does the difference last.

In six months of training together in Judo how does the Aikidoist fare. Actually I would consider the answer indicative of the quality of the Aikido instruction since the principles are essentially the same with only the training program being altered.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-07-2005, 08:08 PM   #173
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Duh!! I would expect no less in a Judo dojo where they would be doing Judo
It is my opionion that the Judoka would have the same advantage in an all out fight as well, not just practicing Judo. However I have said over and over, if the Aikodoka trains heavy randori frequently then that advantage would shrink away from the Judoka.

Quote:
However, the real question is how long does the difference last.
That is a good question but I guess you would have to consider alot of variables as you mentioned.
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Old 06-07-2005, 08:27 PM   #174
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

We are of the same opinion when it comes to an all out fight. Any degree of dynamic resistive training is essential to separate the wheat from the chaff in addition to providing lessons in their own right. Of course you could do that by taking it outside the dojo.

Aikido (even Shodokan since you can advance quite far without doing randori) has room for the chaff to happily do what they do and that is not a problem in my book. What I am trying to point out though is the lack of randori training is relatively easily overcome by starting randori training. A person trained well in kata only should have a very steep learning curve. I have very strong ideas what constitutes quality kata training but that is another thread. Shodokan dogma is that randori and kata work together and if you look at the Judo method a very similar mantra exists. Shodokan tends to emphasize kata first then randori (although we introduce low level versions of the latter on the first day) whereas Judo goes the other way.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-07-2005, 08:40 PM   #175
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
It is my opionion that the Judoka would have the same advantage in an all out fight as well, not just practicing Judo. However I have said over and over, if the Aikodoka trains heavy randori frequently then that advantage would shrink away from the Judoka.
My opinion is that the Judoka's advantage would not shrink but disappear almost completely if the Aikidoka engaged in regular resistance based randori using Aiki waza.

It's interesting to see how these folks respond (or don't respond) when you bait them just right and then execute waza which is illegal in the vast majority of their regular training. They just need to grab onto something for their stuff to work.

LC

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