Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

LOL.....It seems like this debate goes on everywhere. I think everyone needs to remember the following.

All Martial Arts are just that, an ART. It doesn't matter what style you learn, Aikido, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Capoeira, Savat what-ever it may be, they're all branches hanging from the same tree, a tree called Martial Science also called Combat Science. When you brake down every Martial Art into its purist and most simplest form you're left with Martial Science. A Science based on practical facts on how to quickly kill another human. So it's not about what art is better then another. They truly are all equal and in the end the same thing.

Aikido is said to be one of the hardest Martial Arts to learn and so it's also thought to be very impractical and inferior. I agree it's hard to learn, but not because it's difficult to apply in a practical sense or inferior, but because it's very hard to learn to apply without seriously hurting if not killing someone while applying the techniques. I'm sure all of you have seen this first hand when you try to play around with your friends who don't train in the Martial Arts. Aikido tends to brake down because most of the techniques can't effectively be done if you have fear of hurting the person your applying them to. If you don't care what happens to the other person then Aikido becomes extremely effective.

Judo is the same exact way, however many of the techniques in Judo can easily be toned down and changed a little to make them much safer for those being attacked. Such as grabbing the clothing instead of the neck or other joints. Were if you did that in Aikido people would then say, "Hey, that's not Aikido."

I could write a book on this subject but I'm sure most of you know already what I'm saying so I'll leave it at that.

To end on a lighter side I've heard it said like this,

If you want to:
- fight...take up Muay Thai/BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing/Judo
- live in Harmony...learn Aikido
- practice kata...learn Karate
- learn to kick really pretty...learn Tae Kwon Do
- kill...Take the Art out your Martial Art.

Where did I say "Aikidokas can only do breakfalls in controlled rehearsed environment" ? I said
"I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session" after citing the 1 in 6 example.

I am quite sure you can do breakfalls fine but what I was saying is that less Aikidoka are prepared to take breakfalls than judoka who start from day one practicing them. In my own experience in Aikido many in the class injured themselves or developed a fear of breakfalls because they did not learn them from day one, it was one of those things you were supposed to pick up as you went along. I am prettty sure at least 25% of that Aikido class would not be able to take a good safe breakfall from a hard Judo throw. The results of that poll confirmed my experiences.

Somewhere in the middle of a series of being thrown by him, and my unsuccessful attempts at a shihonage, I reversed him into a sankyo, and he looked ... puzzled. We stood there for a few seconds and then I let him go because I didn't know if he would follow the correct ukemi or decide to break his own wrist.

Would it have been Ok with you if he decided to punch you in the face during randori to see what would happen? You know that sankyo is against the rules right? It would be polite to inform your partner that you wish to randori with no rules if you are going to do things like that. If you get to break the rules to see if your Aikido will work it would only be fair to allow him to break the rules as well.

The only way to fairly test your Aikido skills against a Judoka is to spar with no rules. There are all kinds of things that we learn in Judo class but do not apply in competition because they are illegal, we should be able to use these things against the Aikidoka to make things fair right?

P.S. That Judo instructor himself said that he thinks Aikido is great, its just that he doesnt understand why everyone treats it as some sort of slow dance nowadays. He said that, in his opinion, Judo training is needed before you can do Aikido properly.

I agree with him in all that he said

I think you guys are mistaking me for the guy who posted the thread "Aikido is weak" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1067

I like Aikido. Restrain yourselves now, I am not the devil. I just think Judo is more effective becasue of the way it is trained. Sorry if that gets you upset, it is not meant to.

If you really think I am wrong then that is fine. I would actually like to do more friendly sparring with some Aikidoka some time, just for the learning experience. If I hated Aikido I would not come here to Aikiweb at all, I want to see the art grow and become better.

Michael Neal wrote: Where did I say "Aikidokas can only do breakfalls in controlled rehearsed environment" ? I said "I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session" after citing the 1 in 6 example.

From someone who continually puts words in people's mouths and paints with an amusingly broad brush (99% of the time Judoka will prevail !) during an entire thread, you're pretty picky about exactness of expressions.

I am quite sure you can do breakfalls fine but what I was saying is that less Aikidoka are prepared to take breakfalls than judoka who start from day one practicing them. In my own experience in Aikido many in the class injured themselves or developed a fear of breakfalls because they did not learn them from day one, it was one of those things you were supposed to pick up as you went along. I am prettty sure at least 25% of that Aikido class would not be able to take a good safe breakfall from a hard Judo throw. The results of that poll confirmed my experiences.

Many in class injured themselves and developed a fear ... ?
Once again Michael you appear to be studying in an alternate-reality Aikidoland.

And again,if we were to indulge in that silly game, for someone being picky on exactness, 1/6 = 16.6%, not 25% , which is an estimate that the poll, on which you rely, does not support.

Michael Neal wrote: Would it have been Ok with you if he decided to punch you in the face during randori to see what would happen? You know that sankyo is against the rules right?

Frankly the "rules" were a little fuzzy to me at that point.
I just moved in a way I felt I could move, and I took care of not injuring the opponent.

Punching in the face is an entire ballgame completely, for first and foremost, it injures the opponent.

Don't you feel like you want to punch this entire thread in the face, Michael ? Feel your hatred, my son.

(yep another cheap shot, gotta have some fun)

It would be polite to inform your partner that you wish to randori with no rules if you are going to do things like that. If you get to break the rules to see if your Aikido will work it would only be fair to allow him to break the rules as well.

If I didn't have that awareness, I would've kept sankyo'ing him till the end of time instead of dropping it after the first time.

The only way to fairly test your Aikido skills against a Judoka is to spar with no rules.

So, if there's no real way to test the skills against Judoka (asides from a life-and-death competition between two not-very-bright individuals), then where exactly did you get your marvelous assumptions ?

I agree with him in all that he said

I don't disagree with what he said, either.
Judo is an excellent art, and if I find a dojo with warmups which are less silly than the ones I witnessed (crawling on my butt is not exactly up my alley), I might join.

I do find your hilarious "Judo guys are all made out of steel, and I, Michael Neal, personally, am made of titanium superalloy. Resistance is futile and if at any point you were able to stop us, its only because we pity you mortals and go easy on you !
Mwa ha ha ha. Good day." attitude to be entertaining though.

Keep up the good work.

Many in class injured themselves and developed a fear ... ? Once again Michael you appear to be studying in an alternate-reality Aikidoland.

No not really

And again,if we were to indulge in that silly game, for someone being picky on exactness, 1/6 = 16.6%, not 25% , which is an estimate that the poll, on which you rely, does not support.

LOL, no the poll suggested more than 1 in 6 could not do breakfalls, I expanded on that and said even more could do breakfalls somewhat but only under a controlled setting. This is from my own experiences.

Don't you feel like you want to punch this entire thread in the face, Michael ? Feel your hatred, my son.

No not angry, actually I am having a lot of fun

If I didn't have that awareness, I would've kept sankyo'ing him till the end of time instead of dropping it after the first time.

Yea Ok

So, if there's no real way to test the skills against Judoka (asides from a life-and-death competition between two not-very-bright individuals), then where exactly did you get your marvelous assumptions ?

From every point made so far in this thread and in my own experiences doing randori with Aikidoka. I did not mean there was no way to test the skills without a death match but it would be much more honest to not pull illegal moves while the other guy is fighting under guidelines and then claim that Aikido works against Judo.

Michael Neal wrote: it would be much more honest to not pull illegal moves while the other guy is fighting under guidelines and then claim that Aikido works against Judo.

I did not go in that direction, I simply described all that happened during that encounter.
The main point of my reply was that your breakfall statement was inaccurate as always.

In general, when you come to forum about "X", and then you start critiquing "X" in a manner which appears confrontational or ignorant, even if your critique happens to have validity in it, you're going to be sucked into a huge nerve-wasting flamewar.
That's just something that always happens, no matter what "X" is.

One thing that I love about cross training with Judo guys (and other arts) is seeing that the way I was taught is sometimes stupid. Often, I'll be shown a technique one way, and criticized by people in my school for doing it any different. I think, "ah, they are right, this is the best way; it's so logical," until someone from a different school shows us in practice that we all were being idiots. It goes both ways of course, but this is the best way to grow strong.

It is also fun to note that much of what is "law" is actually more of "the latest trend" - and all part of an evolution at that.

In general, when you come to forum about "X", and then you start critiquing "X" in a manner which appears confrontational or ignorant, even if your critique happens to have validity in it, you're going to be sucked into a huge nerve-wasting flamewar.

Yeah, I'm always hesitant about posting on aikiweb out of fear that Aleksey is going to come kill me and eat my family.

Nathan Gidney wrote: Yeah, I'm always hesitant about posting on aikiweb out of fear that Aleksey is going to come kill me and eat my family.

How they say... "you are what you eat".
I think I'll pass

Michael Neal wrote: Aikido's weakness is a lack of frequent sparring. .

for heavens sake dude, that's like saying the English Language weakness is a lack of vowels..

Everyone's Aikido is different... some people may do a LOT of intense fully resistant randori, some people may not do much at all..

Your generalisations are crass, awkward and infantile...

Somewhere in the middle of a series of being thrown by him, and my unsuccessful attempts at a shihonage, I reversed him into a sankyo, and he looked ... puzzled. We stood there for a few seconds and then I let him go because I didn't know if he would follow the correct ukemi or decide to break his own wrist.

My compliments. Taking this sort of approach allows you to play around in a much freer and safer way. Of course, both parties have to have made this sort of agreement.

By the way, I meant that, I popped a TKD guy's wrist as a second kyu because he resisted sankyo and I didn't let it go. He was a sandan and probably would have destroyed me in a fight so I guess he felt like he could take anything I dished out

Both of us were wrong!

Peter Rehse wrote: So how many out there have entered a Judo dojo after several years training as an Aikidoist - any interesting experiences.

So getting back to the initial question:-

An interesting thing I now remember when I first walked into a Judo dojo after doing Aikido alone for an extended period was the severe muscle fatigue I experienced after doing about 15 or so bouts of ne waza one after another.

Just as in Aikido training when one gets to the point of exhaustion the mind/body starts cutting off the excess movement to conserve energy etc., same thing happened here except, since my body is programmed mainly with Aikido movements, I found myself doing stuff like what we do in Nanahon no kuzushi on the floor, as "thinking" of what I should do went out the door. Many times it got me in favourable positions to apply something - especially the chudan no kuzushi movements - leading to ude hineri/ude gaeshi type pins and submissions - which are legal in Judo - lucky me .

Reminds me of Tomiki's diagram that shows the shared elements of Judo and Aikido kansetsu waza. It's interesting though, the things you find out about yourself when your body is spent and your hands and arms are like rubber. One of the reasons I love ne waza.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

The main point of my reply was that your breakfall statement was inaccurate as always.

What exactly was inacurate about it?

In general, when you come to forum about "X", and then you start critiquing "X" in a manner which appears confrontational or ignorant, even if your critique happens to have validity in it, you're going to be sucked into a huge nerve-wasting flamewar. That's just something that always happens, no matter what "X" is.

The first person on this thread to start elevating this discussion to a personal attacks was you, remember that.

Everyone's Aikido is different... some people may do a LOT of intense fully resistant randori, some people may not do much at all.. Your generalisations are crass, awkward and infantile...

If you had bothered to read anything I have written you would see that over and over again I said people who train "LOT of intense fully resistant randori" would be narrow the gap and make it more about the individual that the art. I have said that from the beginning and repeated it I don't know how many times.

I think it is safe to say that most Aikidoka do not do a "LOT of intense fully resistant randori". So the vast majority of Aiidoka in my view are not prepared to spar with people who do. This has been my freakin argument from the very beginning.

Dear posters,

This thread is hot and deliciously tempting to get into... so here goes my $ 0.02 thought:

Judo is great (having not done judo at all)!!! It is a great MA in close combat i.e., ground grappling, choking and basically very close combat distance. I think ju doka cannot be viewed lightly; they are strong, agile and fast. Once they get you on the ground, it is their fight.

Aikido is great (having done a decade of it)!!! It is great MA is middle range combat. Aikido has great leverage in the evasion part. That is why we do tonnes of it. Should an aikidoka wants to go against a Ju doka, IMO:

Stay your distance; do not get close (it will be their advantage). Hiji ate, ushiro kokyu nage, irimi-zuki, shihonage and shiho kuzushi nage are good choices. Remember Osae or pinning techniques are judokas forte, avoid getting in to them when faced with a ju-doka. Use atemi liberally. Use what aikido is good for, evasion and counter from unexpected angle, surprise is the active ingredient. Use hit an run tactics Your syllables include bokken and jo training, use it. Force them to maintain their distance, disallowing a ju-doka to get close. Fight using a mindset of kenjutsu or jo-do player; never fight thinking like a ju-doka, closing in and trying to grapple with a ju-doka, you'll get pummel.

Aikido and Judo share the same heritage, we may be classified as distant cousin. Judo training emphasized certain elements and aikido different elements. Maybe it was impossible to learn everything in a lifetime, so the founding teachers picked what was in their thought the best things and master them. Rather than be a jack of all trades and master of none, Dr Jigaro Kano and Osensei Ueshiba picked the best from the myriad of forms and create their version of an effective MA. Both of them succeeded in their own capacity.

Regards,
Boon

Michael Neal wrote: If you had bothered to read anything I have written you would see that over and over again I said people who train "LOT of intense fully resistant randori" would be narrow the gap and make it more about the individual that the art. I have said that from the beginning and repeated it I don't know how many times.

Why would they "narrow the gap" Michael? Why wouldn't they be as good if not better?

What about a Jujitsudoka who practices fully resistant sparring? Would he/she "narrow the gap" to an average Judoka?

it's meaningless... the whole "an average judoka could kick an average aikidodoka's arse" argument is meaningless.. it deals in broad generalities which are also meaningless (my "freaking" argument from the very start)...

in my highschool there is a kid who is 3rd in the world at judo in his weight class. It is fun watching him do all his tachniques to all of us even the really huge guys, like passing us out and stuff like that. I haven't started aikido yet but i will next month and after a few months a training i will go get tossed around by him to see what it feel like ( i say tossed because being third in the world at judo will leave me looking like a radoll. i will tell everyone how it goes though in a few months, just thought i's throw that out there

-jacob

You people who are personally attacking Micheal instead of attacking his opinions need to get beaten down more often. Learn some respect.

The first person on this thread to start elevating this discussion to a personal attacks was you, remember that.

Calling you a troll was not a personal attack, but an accurate identification, meant to assist you, given how you clearly did not see what you were doing.
Little good it did, though.

Michael Neal wrote: What exactly was inacurate about it?

Everything. Just another broad generalization (tm) from Michael Neal (R) .

So, in a baking contest between a deliciously moist victoria sponge and hard yet fiendishly crisp ginger snap, who would win?

Sorry, don't know what came over me there...

Some of the more general points raised with regard to judo/aikido have gelled quite nicely with some of the things I've been looking at. So, here's my rambling bollocks for you (only tangentially adding to the thread)

Non-cooperative sparring: no we don't do as much of it in the aikido dojo as in a normal judo dojo. In my opinion, a standard kyu aikido practitioner from my own style (say 2 times a week, 2hours per session) would probably lose against the equivalent judo person in a non-cooperative randori. Wouldn't surprise me in the least, our kyu grades (remember, aiki-fruitie territory here) are often made up of people who wouldn't even last a single judo lesson. A lot of time is often spent inducing aggression into them (along with encouraging them to get a bit fitter) so we can start looking at any sort of effective defense.

Now once you get into the dan grades, I'd be less sanguine on who to recommend as by then, people have been bitten by the bug and the aikido (like the judo) is no longer a hobby but a habit. Most long-term aikido practitioners that I know have always been of the "get together for an informal bash later" or (just as often) cross-train.

Is this a fault in (our) aikido, actually I don't think it is. I've been impressed by judo guys who show a very good foundation in how to fight very early on. However, many of the "better" judo schools competition-wise have also been rather discriminating with their students, insisting they pass a test of fire to continue to train at that school. In aikido, I've seen some of the least-likely wimps actually become reasonably dangerous over a period of time, often to their own great surprise.

In summary, from my experience of the two, they're both good arts to learn, I'd just go with which one you feel most comfortable with. They've both got their own unique problems, so it comes back to the old find a dojo/teacher you like.

Why would they "narrow the gap" Michael? Why wouldn't they be as good if not better?

I am still a bit hesitant because I have yet to see any Aikido randori that rises to the level of Judo randori, maybe you guys do but I have not seen it. But doing hard randori would certainly make Aikido better able to handle Judo randori, I am just not sure how much better yet.

What about a Jujitsudoka who practices fully resistant sparring? Would he/she "narrow the gap" to an average Judoka?

It would narrow the gap sure but you must remember the following story, It was extracted from the here http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist3.htm where Judo defeated jujitsu in a series of matches, I am sure it apples to Aikido as well.

"The Tokyo Metropolitan Police Board, because of the functions of its office took an active interest in the revival of Jujitsu, as well as Kenjutsu, the Japanese fencing, and other martial exercises. The new Kodokan Judo was the centre of public attention. Everyone admired it tenets and slogans and its high idealism. But its practical merits in combat were looked upon with doubts and suspicion and even contempt by old Jujitsu men, including the then outstanding master Hikosuke Totsuka, who commanded a very large following. Naturally there developed a keen rivalry between the Totsuka School and the Kodokan. In 1886, under the auspices of the Chief of Metropolitan Police, a grand tournament was arranged between both schools. This was a decisive battle. Defeat would have been fatal to the Kodokan. But in that tournament, to which each school sent 15 picked men, the Kodokan won all the bouts excepting two which ended in a draw (note: it is tempting to speculate that such contests were more like duels than sporting events, considering the time period). That brilliant victory established once and for all the supremacy of the Kodokan Judo over all Jujitsu schools, not only in principles but also in techniques. "

it's meaningless... the whole "an average judoka could kick an average aikidodoka's arse" argument is meaningless.. it deals in broad generalities which are also meaningless (my "freaking" argument from the very start)...

Not meaningless at all, it is true

PS: Here is an intersting link about randori if anyone is interested

http://www.judoinfo.com/randori1.htm

Stay your distance; do not get close (it will be their advantage). Hiji ate, ushiro kokyu nage, irimi-zuki, shihonage and shiho kuzushi nage are good choices. Remember Osae or pinning techniques are judokas forte, avoid getting in to them when faced with a ju-doka. Use atemi liberally. Use what aikido is good for, evasion and counter from unexpected angle, surprise is the active ingredient. Use hit an run tactics Your syllables include bokken and jo training, use it. Force them to maintain their distance, disallowing a ju-doka to get close.

I like the part about keeping your distance. I still think it's better to just pick up a rock and throw it at them though. Well... Maybe a brick or a cinder block would be better.

But that's more along the lines of something musashi would do.

Michael Neal wrote: I mean sure if the Aikidoka keeps a distance by running away the Judoka will never get to throw him but I don't see how that is a win for the Aikidoka.

I'm still standing, I'm a winner

Michael Neal wrote: So what you guys did was go into a Judo dojo and ran around the place avoiding being thrown and consider that a victory and frustrating the Judoka's effort. It makes sense now.

Well, I didn't run around I got in there and mixed it up. To be honest the only thing I was able to do was frustrate the judokas efforts. I could keep him from throwing me most of the time by playing defensive but I had absolutely no chance of throwing him. As I stated above "I'm still standing, I'm a winner "

Bronson

happysod wrote: So, in a baking contest between a deliciously moist victoria sponge and hard yet fiendishly crisp ginger snap, who would win?

You've got it all wrong, silly. The more appropriate question is who would win in a fight, a bear or a shark! Bears and sharks are neat! The answer is of utmost importance! A close second, however, is who would win in a fight, me or said ginger snap. Mmmmmm.

Michael Neal wrote: Not meaningless at all, it is true.

Truth implies nothing about inherent meaning. I own more than one pair of socks; I hope you can believe that this is indeed true (jokes about my cleanliness and cold feet aside). Is this fact meaningful? I don't think so. You might and that is for you to decide but it is nothing to push upon others. And if it was actually a lie, would that make the statement meaningful either? Not particularly. You might have grounds for the argument that I am a liar, but for such a crime, I wouldn't take the generalized notion that I am a liar in all circumstances with any seriousness. You may choose to treat me differently, but then again, that is you personally adding meaning to it, whereas it is still meaningless to me.

If I may make a comment on the entire argument, your position may very well be true. Then again, it might not be. Some people feel this is relevant, some do not. Since I believe everybody has agreed that the study of both Judo and Aikido are worthwhile, albeit different, furthering the discussion seems pointless.

I happened to enjoy hearing that many people are actually gaining enough martial prowess through their respective art enough to skill to throw feints, lead their opponent, and such. This gives me something to look forward to as I have just started upon my own martial journey. It's also good to see that enough people have tried both arts enough to realize their respective strengths and weaknesses, as both standalone arts and when meeting with the other. It's also interesting to hear such facts about Jujutsu and Judo - it was not something I would have considered based on my knowledge of the difference between -do and -jutsu arts. So by all means, I encourage all parties involved to continue to share their experiences. Read what you will into their meanings and how they can or do relate to you and your experiences, and if you feel you must, try to push this relevance on others, but know that in the latter you are fighting a losing battle.

Take it easy,
-spin

Michael Neal wrote: It would narrow the gap sure but you must remember the following story, It was extracted from the here http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist3.htm where Judo defeated jujitsu in a series of matches, I am sure it apples to Aikido as well.

If you are going to pull up old history. Then you would have to pull up things also like Koichi Tohei Sensei's first visits to Hawaii in the 1950's when Judo players challenged him and lost. This was far from friendly sparring matches. One occasion he was asked to take 4 Judo players at one time in front of an audience and wiped the floor with them. There was even video. This was a reason why many of the early aikido students in Hawaii had previously been Judo players.

So what's truth ?

Craig

Well I think Koichi Tohei differs greatly from the averege Aikidoka. I am sure Ueshiba could have tossed some Judoka as well. But they certainly trained alot differently than most Aikidoka do today.

But put Koichi Tohei vs. a Judoka of the same stature like Kimura, Yamashita, etc. and I would put my money on those Judoka for sure.