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Old 07-12-2004, 01:41 PM   #76
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Paul: Well said, I think you stated more clearly what I wanted to say than I did. You did not put words into my mouth. Thank you for the attempt at clarification.

Michael: I see now that you are not interested in even trying to appreciate another opinion, so I will leave this as is. I will still post on this thread, but only if the movement changes from this topic to something reflecting the initial point of the thread. It is obvious that you hold onto only what you want to believe to "prove" your point.

As I said earlier, I was Shodan during that silly little thing, with not much Judo training, it was a chance encounter, it could have happened in a number of ways, but that time it worked for me. The Jimerfield seminar that I went to was over a year after the Judo thing occurred, his website here shows the time when he visited this country last year. Apparently he visits regularly at this time in the year. Before he came I had no idea who he was, his defensive tactics system is taught to the defence forces in this country - having seen it though I was not very impressed. The invitation to his Judo seminar was given to the national body, the T&T Judo Association, of which I am an executive member as our Aikido Club is a member of this association. From what he said (information I cannot confirm or deny) he has a 7th Dan in Judo and did some competitive stuff at the U.S. national level many years ago. In training with him, he does have some skill in Judo and wherever he learned I don't think he is faking what he knows.

I do not know where you get the idea that my students whipped anyone at that seminar, I indicated that both styles learnt much, yet you choose to see what you wish. I never indicated that I or anyone else could throw around highly skilled judoka who trained for comps. etc. to me every encounter is different. The guy I threw 2 years ago may wipe the floor with me today, as well as he may not.

It's funny, all of my encounters with Judoka thus far have been extremely pleasant ones, including during randori. I was happy to not find the arrogance that I find in some Aikido poisoning their practice. But today I see that there are elements that have this arrogance in Judo as well. But such is the way.

Peter: Many many many apologies for any part I may have played in degenerating this thread. I will only post in future if this thread takes on a different light and moves away from this sort of thing. It's hard to see how one little 2 second encounter can cause so much pain for some people.

Gomen Nasai Minasan.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 07-12-2004, 02:17 PM   #77
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
I do not know where you get the idea that my students whipped anyone at that seminar
It was the following comment that gave me that idea, maybe you did not mean it that way but that is how it sounded to me.

Quote:
At the end of it we had a little scrap session and the Judo folks found out a few things as well-

Quote:
From what he said (information I cannot confirm or deny) he has a 7th Dan in Judo and did some competitive stuff at the U.S. national level many years ago. In training with him, he does have some skill in Judo and wherever he learned I don't think he is faking what he knows.
He may be very skilled who knows, but what I am saying is that he is not part of any Judo organization that is affiliatied with the IJF. What it seems like is being taught is not standard Judo but something he has put together for self defense training, not heavy randori and competition.

Quote:
I never indicated that I or anyone else could throw around highly skilled judoka who trained for comps
The vast majority of Judo is competition based with people who train for competition. Do you see my point now? This is why I said before there was more to these stories than what they appeared to be. Not that they were lies but there were important facts left out that may explain why things occured the way they did, other than Aikido being very effective against competitive Judoka.
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Old 07-12-2004, 02:49 PM   #78
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I hate getting into these arguments because it makes it look like I think Aikido does not work or something. I like Aikido and think it is a worthwhile martial art. My argument has to do with how different arts train.

Muay Thai Boxers completely thrash most Tae Kwon Do and Karate practicioners who spar or fight with them. This is because Muay Thai fighters train alot harder and spar more frequently with full contact. There may be a few exception on occasion but it is rare. This does not mean that Karate and TKD are worthess martial arts, it just means they are not that effective against Muay Thai. I think the same applies for Judo and Aikido.
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Old 07-12-2004, 03:34 PM   #79
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists



Last edited by shihonage : 07-12-2004 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 07-12-2004, 07:25 PM   #80
Erik
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
They aren't hard-core clubs like SJSU, the OTC or Tokai.
Paul, I have to admit that this surprised me. I saw the SJSU go by and thought he must be referring to some other place. It couldn't be. Then I did some research and there it was.

I guess there really are things that you don't know you don't know.
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Old 07-12-2004, 09:19 PM   #81
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

It's a bit disingenuous to compare your average Aikidoist with top ranked Judo competitors. I'm talking about your average Aikidoist (as in me) going down to the local Judo club and sure enough they learn from me as well. This was what Larry was saying I am sure. The idea that enlightenment/entertainment is all one sided is a bit much.

I've met all kinds at the local Judo club. Besides the regular members I am often fed to imported lions and surprise surprise get fed on occasion also. Last years All-Japan Junior High School Champion originally comes from this local dojo and there are two kids right now that have the makings. They all have to start somewhere.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-13-2004, 01:39 AM   #82
AriesS
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

JUDO VS AIKIDO

When I was still very new with Aikido one from our class asked our Sensei regarding an Aikidoka sparring with a Judoka. His replywas simple, WHOSE RULE? Then the student replied, why, is this important? Of course, came the reply. If they dont allow ATEMIS I will not advise that you do it. With Atemis a Judoka will have hard time with an Aikidoka.

Made sense to me!
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Old 07-13-2004, 02:30 AM   #83
PeterR
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
aries Navy wrote:
When I was still very new with Aikido one from our class asked our Sensei regarding an Aikidoka sparring with a Judoka. His replywas simple, WHOSE RULE? Then the student replied, why, is this important? Of course, came the reply. If they dont allow ATEMIS I will not advise that you do it. With Atemis a Judoka will have hard time with an Aikidoka.
Someone already mentioned that randori is practice - there is no winner or looser although usually it is clear who dominates. With this in mind randori can, by mutual agreement, diverge from strict shiai rules.

Judo randori is pretty rough and tumble and in my experience because of this Judoka have an easier time shrugging off discomfort than those that don't partake it. I would say the strike must be pretty effective to prevent the Judoka from closing if that is what he wants to do. One thing about randori and sparring in general is that there is fear to overcome - once managed atemi is minor and more importantly strikes are pretty basic to use. Nothing stopping a Judoka from using his own. The same applies to an Aikidoist going after a PK guy - if you resign yourself to taking a hit all sorts of possibilities open up.

It is the rough and tumble nature of Judo practice that is one of the major benefits for Aikidoists.

However, I agree that which rules you play under have a major say in the outcome if an outcome is what you are after.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-13-2004, 07:03 AM   #84
mj
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

You better not put too much energy into that atemi if your Judoka can touch it

Maybe you could throw something at him, or just leave him in peace?

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Old 07-13-2004, 07:06 AM   #85
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
It's a bit disingenuous to compare your average Aikidoist with top ranked Judo competitors
No I am not talking about top ranked Judo competitors, I am talking about the average competitor


Quote:
With Atemis a Judoka will have hard time with an Aikidoka.
LOL, what if the Judoka are allowed to strike too?
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Old 07-13-2004, 07:16 AM   #86
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Michael:

If they are allowed to hit then we have boxing. LOL.
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Old 07-13-2004, 07:24 AM   #87
happysod
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I have to admire Michael's tenacity on this, but I think what we really need now is a new Aikido Alcoholics thread perhaps entitled "I'm an aikidoist and I train in a really crap manner and thus get pawned by judoists"

See the problem is Michael, you're not going to get anyone on this thread to actually admit that they don't actually train in an "alive" (please forgive me everyone for that phrase) manner - note all the non-violent and most aiki-fruities have left you tough guys to this thread. With this in mind, what you're going to get is

1. In the Red Corner, Judo exponent M. Neal
2. In the other corner, nearly everyone else

Topic for the day - equal training time aikido vs Judo, who wins
1. Red corner = judo
2. Others = bollocks, look [add own experiences here]

So, I'm going to be a sod and ask you if you think that, assuming both dojos (aikido and judo) practiced with all the elements which are increasingly being accepted even by internal TMA's as necessary for self-defense (full contact sparring, conditioning etc. etc.), would there be any real difference between the aikidoist and the judoist other than individual skill (and body type) in their chosen art?

Is there anything in judo or aikido which you believe is truly missing?

OT - Aleksey, I'm annexing your kittens, give them to me now...
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Old 07-13-2004, 08:17 AM   #88
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
So, I'm going to be a sod and ask you if you think that, assuming both dojos (aikido and judo) practiced with all the elements which are increasingly being accepted even by internal TMA's as necessary for self-defense (full contact sparring, conditioning etc. etc.), would there be any real difference between the aikidoist and the judoist other than individual skill (and body type) in their chosen art?
I have already stated several times that I think if Aikidoka did intense randori as frequently as Judoka then they would become much closer in effectiveness. At this point it would be more about the individual than the art I think.

Quote:
Is there anything in judo or aikido which you believe is truly missing?
Aikido's weakness is a lack of frequent sparring. Also I think they have weaknesses when it comes to grappling, standing and on the ground, when the range is close. The strikes Aikidoka often practice against are pretty unrealistic, nobody really strikes like a shomen or yokomen.

While I believe the frequent randori and competition in Judo is sets it apart from many martial arts, sometimes Judo gets consumed by competition. I think that the randori and cometition are the most important but Judo defense against strikes, striking, kata, and the goshin jujitsu techniques often get ignored completely. Just a little attention to these things would make it better. On the other hand Judo clubs that focus on the self defense techniques at the expense of competition significantly weaken the effectiveness of their technique.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-13-2004 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 07-13-2004, 08:21 AM   #89
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

BTW, cute kittens Aleksey
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Old 07-13-2004, 09:19 AM   #90
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

this post was excellent Paul...the people you describe are a completely different animal. I walk up to a world class athelete who trains hard in a martial sport and guess what...MY aikido ain't goin to be worth a damn in terms of defeating him...especially not at his own game. I pretty much thought that was common sense. MN seems to want to take shots any time he can. That's ok. We can take it...

Ron

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
I found that my "defense" was very good. Even though I wasn't aware of the setups and exact throws that were being attempted, aikido allowed me to sense that I was going to be led off balance and let me adjust.

Personally, I had a harder time throwing judoka. I never really "found" a throw...I always ended up with some ugly variation of a traditional throw.


re: Michael Neal, et al....

I didn't read all the interactions that carefully, but I hope I'm not too off base if I mention a few thoughts. To the best of my knowledge:

Randori is training for judoka. They don't keep "score". It's just training. Some dojo I visited will even suggest that it you're not getting thrown, you're not learning.

It would be, well, disrespectful, if during aikido practice in the process of having trouble with koshi nage that my instructor came over, worked with me and then eventually allowed herself to be thrown by me...that I ran to the internet and posted I threw a 5th dan in aikido the other day

There's a huge difference between the average judo black belt, and someone who's nationally ranked. I'll randori with an average judo black belt anytime. A person who is nationally ranked however ..... can throw me at will, hard enough that I'm not going to get back up ---- on padded floors. It's like the difference between a bicycle and a car. There's a similar difference between an average judo school and a competitive one.

My experience was with an average judo dojo. There were a handful of men and women who were pretty good (could do well in a state tournament), but no one who was regional or national level caliber. Places like that will let someone like me train there. I'm not going to walk into SJSU without an introduction....and a fairly good competitive resume. Those men and women would kill me.

Regards,

Paul

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-13-2004, 09:19 AM   #91
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
The strikes Aikidoka often practice against are pretty unrealistic, nobody really strikes like a shomen or yokomen.
Please thoroughly consider your statements before posting them, Michael.

Pretty unrealistic? What does picking up a beer bottle and smashing another person in the head look like to you?

Last edited by fjcsuper : 07-13-2004 at 09:21 AM.

It is inevitable.
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Old 07-13-2004, 09:48 AM   #92
Chris Birke
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Woo, I just got back back from a trip to Bellview, what a great thread to come back to.

First off, don't be too angry that Micheal thinks people are embellishing their victories... in martial arts contests... on the internet...

That's what I suspected, because what I've seen and expirenced has certainly not been in line with "Aikido does just fine in Judo contexts." I was always under the impression that once I started doing Judo, it was no longer in Aikido's center.

I've seen (and felt) many mixings of arts, with various levels of opponents. I get mixed up when going by my own expirences (which I'll outline later), but in the context of "Judo VS X: Judo Rules Only Challenge Match!" I've personally seen the following.

Judo vs Wrestling (usually on the level, depends on whether it's gi or nogi),
Judo vs Bjj (guess whether or not it goes to the ground),
Judo vs Sambo (very close),
Judo vs Karate (Judo),
Judo vs Muai Thai (Judo),
Judo vs Kali (Judo).

Judo vs good Aikido is a much closer match than Judo vs good Muai Thai, but again, Judo has the great advantage of the competition being, well, Judo. Of course Judo has an advantage and thus is very successful. I'd feel silly arguing otherwise.

Just because Kali loses to Judo in a Judo match doesnt mean Kali is a bad, it just means when you take what parts of kali fit into judo and throw out all the rest you are left with a sliver, and that doesn't stand very well.

In the case of arts like Sambo and BJJ - their success comes from their similiarity to Judo - the contest of Judo vs Partial Judo will consist of a few Partial Judo wins (I think this is a fantastic name for a new Art, by the way).

Outside the realm of equal level practictioners, the question of who trains harder obiviously goes (on AVERAGE) to Judo. It is part of the definition of Judo that they do this. I feel, absolutely, that this harder training creates an advantage.

But, as stated "note all the non-violent and most aiki-fruities have left you tough guys to this thread" most people here train harder than the average Judo guy, so the point is nullified.

In thinking back on my personal expirence, I must say I have a bit of a bias towards defending Judo when asked "how does judo stack" in the same way I defend Aikido. I think of the best Judo guys I've sparred with, people I consider accurate representations of the art, and tell it how they worked me. If they hadn't had much success (as I'm sure countless anonymous Judo players I've sparred with did) I really didn't factor them into my consideration of Judo's effectiveness.

My evaluation, thus, is really predicated on my ignorance of actual judo training - all I see are the best and the brightest who have come to train mma.

I also have trouble isolating what is "Aikido" and thinking of just that when I compare things, because I crosstrain, and there will of course be mixing. I also don't think I'm good enough to be a true representation of Aikido.

Despite my initial doubts, I think I've come to agree with those who defend Aikido so strongly here. I think their isolated examples are pretty much true, and I consider a partial victory against Judo in Judo rules to be a success overall.

//

"So, I'm going to be a sod and ask you if you think that, assuming both dojos (aikido and judo) practiced with all the elements which are increasingly being accepted even by internal TMA's as necessary for self-defense (full contact sparring, conditioning etc. etc.), would there be any real difference between the aikidoist and the judoist other than individual skill (and body type) in their chosen art? "

This being precisely the point, I'd say they should be equal.

But, because this is too resolute, I will ask another question to stoke the fire.

This outlined training condition is usually lacking.

Is it lacking more in Aikido?

//

Kudos to Peter, Paul, Larry, Ian, and Michael for being such a stubborn bastard.
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Old 07-13-2004, 10:09 AM   #93
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
and Michael for being such a stubborn bastard
You can always count on that
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Old 07-13-2004, 10:54 AM   #94
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I want to add something else to this mix, Jun mentioned a poll he did in this following thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6005 where more than 1 in 6 Aikidoka can not take breakfalls. How do you think these people would survive in a matchup against even a beginning whitebelt Judoka?

I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session.

One day I want to go back to Aikido but I am hoping by then the training methods will have evolved, right now most Judokas I talk to refer to Aikido as the place Judoka go to die.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-13-2004 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:36 AM   #95
Ian Upstone
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

So the conclusion is:

Someone with no or little judo experience - doing judo - with a judoka - is more than likely going to lose against them.

Well, duh.

I'm with Larry - I'd rather this thread headed back to Peter's original post - and focused on anecdotes where folk have cross-trained and have some relevant stories, either amusing or educational. Or even both!

P.S. Michael, you're unlikely to change anyone's mind (especially in an aikido forum!). I'd rather hear about your experiences on an aikido mat coming from a judo background, and any things that helped or hindered your training, rather than the continual aikido bashing. One thing also to bear in mind before giving it the big thumbs down is that the likes of Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki and many others came from a judo background - Kano himself sent his best students to the Kobukan to learn aikido - so there must be something to it other than a bunch of people pretending to bend each others arms...
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:39 AM   #96
MitchMZ
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Someday I plan on teaching my Aikido. I plan on first teaching the art in the traditional sense, then moving on to more practical applications. If you are smart you can see where practical applications develop from the attacks we do. I will teach breakfalls along with having regular randori. I also plan on having an "open randori" in a forest at night for those with much experience. This will include low ranks putting on full body armor and using jo, tanto, bokken, or bare hands and trying their best to take down the higher ranks. I do not believe in competitive Aikido, but I do believe if you can apply it practically in these situations...there is no reason why you wouldnt be able to on the street. You would have to leave out joint locks in open randori, though. Atemi would be vital.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:42 AM   #97
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Someone with no or little judo experience - doing judo - with a judoka - is more than likely going to lose against them.
That may be your conculsion but it is not mine. My conclusion is an Aikidoka with little Judo experience is likely to lose to the Judoka whether they play by Judo rules or not.

Quote:
Kano himself sent his best students to the Kobukan to learn aikido
Kano sent his students everywhere to learn from every jujitsu school he could find, Aikido was one of them. Many of the Goshin jitsu techniques taught at Judo schools are Aikido techniques but Kano also brought in techniques from many differen ju jitsu styles.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:58 AM   #98
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I have never found a judoka that rude...well...till now...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-13-2004, 12:48 PM   #99
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I am just being honest to what I believe to be true, not trying to be rude.
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Old 07-13-2004, 01:39 PM   #100
shihonage
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I want to add something else to this mix, Jun mentioned a poll he did in this following thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6005 where more than 1 in 6 Aikidoka can not take breakfalls. How do you think these people would survive in a matchup against even a beginning whitebelt Judoka?
I am sure beginners don't magically start flying in the air the moment they enter a Judo class.
What is the percentage of such beginners amongst overall Judo practitioners ?

Every day I visit Aikiweb I see a couple of new "Hello I'm new and I've been training for 27 minutes so far ! Wish me luck" threads.
So, more to the point, what is the percentage of such beginners on a Judo website ?


Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session.
I went to a Judo class, participated in randori where, after a slow play-session with one guy (who let me throw him with seio-nage, which was really nice of him), another guy came in. He was heavier, and according to his chatter with the instructor, he was doing freestyle wrestling before he joined the class.

At first he was moderating himself, but when that didn't work, he got really "enthusiastic" and started putting a lot of his speed/power into it.

During one of his first unsuccessful attempts he fell on the floor as I moved exactly at the same moment as he invested all of his speed/power. It happened in a millisecond. BAM.
An ideal tenkan, or something. I am not sure what I did.

Then he adapted, and I was continuously thrown with the same speed as I've seen them throw each other during randori.
Not pretty, but manageable, and I instinctively out of self-preservation did some quite decent breakfalls, ironically, a lot better than the rehearsed ones I do in Aikido class.

Somewhere in the middle of a series of being thrown by him, and my unsuccessful attempts at a shihonage, I reversed him into a sankyo, and he looked ... puzzled. We stood there for a few seconds and then I let him go because I didn't know if he would follow the correct ukemi or decide to break his own wrist.

I am a 4th kyu, and my skill level is about that of a 4th kyu.
I don't know what kind of Aikido you happened to study, but your opinion of it is clearly, as others said, "only what you want to believe".

"Aikidokas can only do breakfalls in controlled rehearsed environment", yeah, ok.
In other news, white people can't jump and black men can't see in the dark.

P.S.
That Judo instructor himself said that he thinks Aikido is great, its just that he doesnt understand why everyone treats it as some sort of slow dance nowadays.
He said that, in his opinion, Judo training is needed before you can do Aikido properly.
Then he proceeded to throw me with some fast. energetic katate tori ikkyo, kokyonage, and sumi otoshi . Bam, you're down.
I think his intent was to show how Aikido "should" be done, to demonstrate the difference, but he felt very much like my Aikido instructor.

Last edited by shihonage : 07-13-2004 at 01:53 PM.
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