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Old 07-11-2004, 04:10 PM   #51
mj
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

That was not so much ill-considered as insulting.

No real judoka would even think of it, and only a person with ego problems would do it
.
Quote:
If you really want to honestly test your Aikido skills go to the Judo dojo and tell them you think you can kick their asses and want a match with one of them, I am betting that this will not happen though
And it also shows a total lack of understanding about Aikido

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Old 07-11-2004, 05:06 PM   #52
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Of course this won't happen Mark but my point is that if you are going to a Judo school to test your Aikido skills against an unsuspecting Judoka you are kind of being a jerk and also being dishonest about the results of such sparring.

It would be just as wrong for me to go to an Aikido dojo and then when we are practing all of a sudden throw my partner down on the ground and start choking and pinning him with newaza. Do see how it might be a little disrespectful for an Aikidoka to start applying joint locks and such during Judo randori when his partner may just be doing a little light sparring. The judoka is participating in the randori under the impression the sparring is governed by the rules of Judo competition, and he is likely taking it easy on the beginner as well. For an Aikidoka then to pull some Aikido move out of his hat and then declare this Aikido to be an effective technique against Judoka is pretty much a lie.

This why I say if you want to honestly test your skills against a Judoka you must first challenge him to match and fight under a different set of ground rules you agree to. But to go there and pull off sneaky moves that are against the rules and then claim your Aikido works against Judo is really pathetic.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-11-2004 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 07-11-2004, 05:15 PM   #53
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

A few here want to point the finger at me for being insulting but if you are going to post a thread about how you supposedly go to Judo dojos and toss them around you has better expect some response to this from a Judoka.

You also should rethink how this stuff could be very insulting to Judoka in the first place, this might help you understand why some of the posts in this thread got such a strong response from me.

How about I start a thread on a Judo forum and encourage people to go to Aikido dojos and test them out. How about the Judoka just start throwing unsuspecting Aikidoka around, choking them out, doing arm bars etc. Would you then feel that such a thing would be inappropriate? I sure would.
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Old 07-11-2004, 05:42 PM   #54
mj
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

There is nothing insulting to Judo here mate coz it is an Aikido forum. And the first post was extremely complimentary to Judo.

I mean...it's ok, you don't know what Aikido is yet. Do more Judo, do more Aikido...keep training.

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Old 07-11-2004, 06:44 PM   #55
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I definatley think that is because of your year of Judo and 2 years of BJJ. I am sure that you Aikido helps some here but if you just had Aikido training I am sure your Dad would toss you pretty easily.

Aikido does help some in Judo, you are certainly better off than someone who has no type of grappling experience at all. When I first started Judo I was able to get some Aikido techniques to work on other students at my same experience level in Judo. But there was no way of getting it to work on a Judoka with more than 6 months of experience.

I think you all have to take another thing into consideration about walking into a Judo dojo and training. A Judo dojo is a learning environment, it is not a competition. During randori we try new things and take risks we would not do in Shiai.

When we train with beginners we let them throw us so they can learn. There are different levels of randori, whe I train with black and brown belts I go 100%, when I train with new white belts I go about 40%- 50%, my own level I go about 60-75%. So if you throw someone in Judo class there are plenty of reasons why it might have happened other than Aikido being effective againt Judo.

If you really want to honestly test your Aikido skills go to the Judo dojo and tell them you think you can kick their asses and want a match with one of them, I am betting that this will not happen though
Okay, I'll be the first to admit nothing is Aikido works...the past six months has been a complete waste of time and I shouldnt give any credit to Aikido to helping me unterstand body movement. I should only give credit to BJJ and Judo.
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Old 07-11-2004, 06:59 PM   #56
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
I should only give credit to BJJ and Judo
For being able to resist judo throws and techniques, yes your 6 months of Aikido is probably not as helpful as your previous year of Judo and 2 years of BJJ experience.

I never said Aikido was useless or that none of it worked.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-11-2004 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 07-11-2004, 07:35 PM   #57
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I was really hoping this thread wouldn't degenerate into Judo versus Aikido. The general feeling I get is that those who do make the journey find that they are not totally obliterated (probably because Judoka tend to be pretty nice) the first time and with a bit of practice they do all right. My experience is that the Aikido training had me more prepared than if I was a total novice to Budo and I had strengths in surprising places. My newaza is far better than tachi for example.

Frankly speaking the opinion of Aikidoists that haven't crossed over is really not germane. Sparring with a Judoka on your own ground is only slightly more interesting. I'm talking about entering the lion's den.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-11-2004, 07:47 PM   #58
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
The general feeling I get is that those who do make the journey find that they are not totally obliterated (probably because Judoka tend to be pretty nice) the first time and with a bit of practice they do all right. My experience is that the Aikido training had me more prepared than if I was a total novice to Budo and I had strengths in surprising places
I think that is a fair statement
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Old 07-11-2004, 08:05 PM   #59
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Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
I was really hoping this thread wouldn't degenerate into Judo versus Aikido.
Hmm. Let's see... this topic was started on 2004.07.09 at 10:48. Things were generally friendly and folks were having a good discussion. Then, on 2004.07.11 at 10:55, this little gem was posted:

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Sorry but I really don't believe you guys. There is definately some embellishing going on.
A two day half-life for a message board thread before things start to go sour or off topic is not too bad. Isn't the internet great?
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Old 07-11-2004, 09:12 PM   #60
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Actually I thought it started to go sour when people started with some of their stories.
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Old 07-11-2004, 09:30 PM   #61
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
. Do see how it might be a little disrespectful for an Aikidoka to start applying joint locks and such during Judo randori when his partner may just be doing a little light sparring. .
Only if we were practicing Judo.. if we were practicing randori then I'd do what I like, and expect him to do likewise..

I study Jujitsu, but if someone told me to practice against a judoka using only legal judo techniques, I WOULD be thrashed.. no doubt about it .. so much of what we learn is based around atemi and other dangerous things which are illegal in judo.
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Old 07-11-2004, 09:36 PM   #62
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

What you didn't like my little story?

I like Larry's and there was nothing sneaky about it. Perfectly legal Judo move just outside the norm. I tend to use an adapted shomen-ate and aigamae-ate when the situation calls for it. These variations are what make the stories interesting and gives me a little edge.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-11-2004, 09:46 PM   #63
Zato Ichi
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Actually I thought it started to go sour when people started with some of their stories.
When you said that people had embellished their stories, IMO most took it to mean "You're lying". I'm not in a position to say whether that was your intention or not, but I'm sure you'll agree, calling people liars tends to piss them off. <shrug>

In any case, no offense was intended - just called it like I saw it.
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Old 07-11-2004, 10:17 PM   #64
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

No I don't think they are lying I just think we are not getting the complete picture, thats all.
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Old 07-12-2004, 02:48 AM   #65
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Bateman: If you looked at the context of my post, I was replying to something that Michael said specifically about the training practices of Shodokan, my post was merely to qualify, not indicate that other styles didn't use kuzushi.

Also, I believe when Michael says randori he is implicitly referring to resistance randori, which is not what you are referring to in your post. In my experience, most folks from other schools catch sheer hell with Shodokan resistance randori, which is still Aikido. Michael's point is because of the absence of this sort of training in many other styles, it removes and edge that one may have against a Judoka.
Hi Larry,

You can call me Bryan . I appreciate that the randori in judo is different, what I said was that if you are going to practice Aikido against Judo, you need to use the Aikido principles. If you are going to enter the Judo world and play the judo game, you've given up your ma ai straight away, entering into resistance also means that you have given up the Aiki principle of harmonising with your opponent, therefore, you are no longer doing Aikido.

At this point I agree that you will most likely become the victim.

Rgds

Bryan

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Old 07-12-2004, 06:12 AM   #66
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I found that my "defense" was very good. Even though I wasn't aware of the setups and exact throws that were being attempted, aikido allowed me to sense that I was going to be led off balance and let me adjust.

Personally, I had a harder time throwing judoka. I never really "found" a throw...I always ended up with some ugly variation of a traditional throw.


re: Michael Neal, et al....

I didn't read all the interactions that carefully, but I hope I'm not too off base if I mention a few thoughts. To the best of my knowledge:

Randori is training for judoka. They don't keep "score". It's just training. Some dojo I visited will even suggest that it you're not getting thrown, you're not learning.

It would be, well, disrespectful, if during aikido practice in the process of having trouble with koshi nage that my instructor came over, worked with me and then eventually allowed herself to be thrown by me...that I ran to the internet and posted I threw a 5th dan in aikido the other day

There's a huge difference between the average judo black belt, and someone who's nationally ranked. I'll randori with an average judo black belt anytime. A person who is nationally ranked however ..... can throw me at will, hard enough that I'm not going to get back up ---- on padded floors. It's like the difference between a bicycle and a car. There's a similar difference between an average judo school and a competitive one.

My experience was with an average judo dojo. There were a handful of men and women who were pretty good (could do well in a state tournament), but no one who was regional or national level caliber. Places like that will let someone like me train there. I'm not going to walk into SJSU without an introduction....and a fairly good competitive resume. Those men and women would kill me.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 07-12-2004, 07:21 AM   #67
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Hi folks,

Bryan: You are perfectly correct. This is what I have been saying as well.

It's funny how Micheal simply assumes that certain things that apply to effectiveness against Judoka can only be learnt doing judo/jujutsu like randori or some other sort of resistance randori. I have another story with this point in mind (hope this one does not generate another explosion).

I attended a Judo technical training workshop with 7th Dan Judoka Steven Jimerfield recently. He instructed some of the finer points of competition Judo etc., including things like leg picks and more efficient variations of doing techs like ippon seoi nage etc.

What was interesting was that a lot of things he showed to make Judo techniques more energy and movement efficient came directly out of Aikido. One of my students joined me on that trip and he was catching hell to get things to work with his Judo partner at first, until I started to explain the Judo stuff in Aikido terms to him, and then he started to really get the stuff being taught. This was practice however, not randori.

Jimerfield had taught some interesting applications of tegatana while on the ground to block any sort of arm control techs like kesa gatame, and used a movement like that used in koshi nage to perform what he called "small man" ippon seoi nage.

At the end of it we had a little scrap session and the Judo folks found out a few things as well-

By always keeping weight low and posture straight, it was nearly impossible to get a leg pick on the Aikido folks there.

By using tegatana and tai sabaki effectively we could shut down most of the tachi waza and one or two of the ne waza. To the shock of some of the attendees.

On the other side the Aikido folk learnt that if you want to survive on the floor, harmonise with the concept of being a greased snake, else it's good night.

Also that the closer the hips are to the floor in ne waza pins the better.

This is not so much about randori sparring in Judo, but it may show to a point where the principles and methodologies taught in the different arts may not be as different as some might think and can be applicable in both directions with slight modifications sometimes. In my early Judo days, what had hampered me the most was my mindset from Aikido training that one was supposed to be cooperative - as soon as that left, things changed.

Like Bryan said - when you enter Judo range and ma ai and start grasping lapel and arm, your Aikido initiative has already left the building. At this point you're in Judo's domain, but it does not mean that there are not things that one can't apply from Aikido in a modified form that will be almost as effective as if the aikidoka had trained in judo to a certain degree. Of course this does not apply to everything in Judo, else we wouldn't have 2 different martial arts.

Just my 2 cents.
Onegaishimasu.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 07-12-2004 at 07:25 AM.

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Old 07-12-2004, 07:50 AM   #68
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
What was interesting was that a lot of things he showed to make Judo techniques more energy and movement efficient came directly out of Aikido
No it did not come directly from Aikido it came from Jujutsu from which both Judo and Aikido were derived. Of course there are simularities on movement and off balancing but the randori that Judoka do makes them better at doing kuzushi against resisting opponents.


Quote:
In my early Judo days, what had hampered me the most was my mindset from Aikido training that one was supposed to be cooperative
This one of those important details that was left out of the previous story that sheds light on what happened, you have previous Judo training.

Quote:
but it does not mean that there are not things that one can't apply from Aikido in a modified form that will be almost as effective as if the aikidoka had trained in judo to a certain degree
I disagree, "almost as effective" is being too generous.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-12-2004 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 07-12-2004, 10:35 AM   #69
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Cool Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
No it did not come directly from Aikido it came from Jujutsu from which both Judo and Aikido were derived. Of course there are simularities on movement and off balancing but the randori that Judoka do makes them better at doing kuzushi against resisting opponents.
So by that phrase, as long as mainstream Aikido starts doing a lot more resistance based randori they should kick some serious a$$ in most Judo dojo, right?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
This one of those important details that was left out of the previous story that sheds light on what happened, you have previous Judo training.
Lol. Let me clarify - the encounter we were talking about hapened over 2 years ago. At that time, I had about 6 hours of total Judo instruction under my belt. Of that, 5 of those hours were just ne waza and rolling, not much technical stuff.

So if an Aikidoka who has under 10 hrs. of official Judo instruction can be that effective using Aikido against a resisting Judoka who has been training for years, then (1) It don't take much to shut down some experienced judoka in tachi waza after all, if you know Aikido or (2) Save for resistance randori (which may not be as uncommon as one may think) the average effectiveness gap between the 2 arts is not as great as being indicated.

You are missing the first point of effective Aiki my friend - you engage the attack before ma ai has even been set - resistance does not matter, since you are applying kuzushi before your attacker has the chance to react or resist. This is what made my technique effective.

I use Judo/Jujutsu when I get resistance and end up in that range (which means my Aiki has failed), my Judo pal never had the chance cuz I set him up to be where I wanted him from the beginning and he followed quite nicely. The only element of judo knowledge that I used is the Judoka's programming to grab certain parts of the clothing or anatomy, so I used it to my tactical advantage. But this last part has nothing to do with Judo, it has to do with martial strategy.

Wasn't it one of those really smart sword guys who said when blades touch the battle has already been decided?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I disagree, "almost as effective" is being too generous.
I agree with you, in tachi waza Judo cannot compare if one understands how to use Aiki and timing. I think even Kano saw this.

Train hard, train conscientiously folks. Both martial arts have great benefits to those who can understand them. My fingers are tired.

Gambatte.
LC

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Old 07-12-2004, 11:04 AM   #70
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
No it did not come directly from Aikido it came from Jujutsu from which both Judo and Aikido were derived.
Derived from different, and unrelated, schools of jujutsu, actually. A minor point - there was Aikido influence on the Judo curriculum through Kenji Tomiki.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Of course there are simularities on movement and off balancing but the randori that Judoka do makes them better at doing kuzushi against resisting opponents.
At least the Judo folks like to think so - but isn't that the disagreement at the heart of the thread anyway?

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-12-2004, 11:21 AM   #71
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
It don't take much to shut down some experienced judoka in tachi waza after all, if you know Aikido or (2) Save for resistance randori (which may not be as uncommon as one may think) the average effectiveness gap between the 2 arts is not as great as being indicated.
Larry,

I hope you don't mind me jumping here, but I think you'll need to express these two points differently to have a meaningful discussion with Michael.

"Shutting down" technique is anathema to judo randori. Anyone can prevent technique by running away...hence penalties in shiai for such behavior.

I think what you want to express is that aikido allowed you to not be thrown while engaged in and participating in judo randori. (Maybe something like, "I was able to use tai sabiki to thwart throws and create opening")

As for your second point I fear that the way it is stated will cause Michael to turn around and reply that:
a) randori is training --- so "wins" mean nothing
b) the level of players you randori'ed with wasn't particularly high

..and then the accusations are really going to start flying.

I think what you want to express is that most judo clubs/dojo are recreational. They aren't hard-core clubs like SJSU, the OTC or Tokai. And a recreational judo club isn't all that dissimilar from an aikido dojo in effectiveness.

I hope I've not put words into your mouth.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:30 AM   #72
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
So if an Aikidoka who has under 10 hrs. of official Judo instruction can be that effective using Aikido against a resisting Judoka who has been training for years, then (1) It don't take much to shut down some experienced judoka in tachi waza after all, if you know Aikido or (2) Save for resistance randori (which may not be as uncommon as one may think) the average effectiveness gap between the 2 arts is not as great as being indicated.
I am sure a Nidan Aikidoka can go throw around some low ranking Judoka or maybe some guys that practice a non competitive form of Judo in the back of some Tae Kwon Do Academy. But a Judo competitor who trains most of his time doing full randori will mop the floor with most Aikidoka. An Aikidoka that trains randori regularly will come closer to being a match to the Judoka because they are using similar training methods, however I still would place my money on the Judoka.

Quote:
agree with you, in tachi waza Judo cannot compare if one understands how to use Aiki and timing. I think even Kano saw this
LOL, really? So why did Kano not give up Judo and start taking Aikido?

Quote:
At the end of it we had a little scrap session and the Judo folks found out a few things as well-
And what was this supposed to mean? Are you trying to say you and your Aikido students whipped up on the Judoka?

I also did a little research on Steven Jimerfield, the 7th Dan who's school you visited. He is a member of the United States Martial Arts Association . His school does not appear to be part of any Judo governing body sanctioned by the International Judo Federation.

For those who do not know, the United States Martial Arts Association is a break off organization from the United States Judo Association. It is run By Phil Porter who refers to himself as the O' Sensei of Judo, I kid you not. He basically left the office of President of the USJA in scandel for basically running the organization financially into the ground and also by issuing rank in return for political support. His schools are generally thought to be subpar because of the lack of standards being enforced on them. I have no idea whether Mr. Jimerfield is completely legit or not, he may a fine Judoka and so could some other Judoka under the USMA but there is a credibility issue there that can't be ignored.

I also visited Mr. Jimerfield's website and it appears he teaches Judo from a purely "self-defense" perspective for law enforcement and such, there is no mentioned of any competition and given the fact that he is not affiliated with any official Judo organization his students could not legally participate in sanctioned Judo events, so there is really no competion for his students.

To me tthis answers alot of question why you were able to handle these Judoka.
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:48 AM   #73
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
I think what you want to express is that most judo clubs/dojo are recreational. They aren't hard-core clubs like SJSU, the OTC or Tokai. And a recreational judo club isn't all that dissimilar from an aikido dojo in effectiveness.
I would even take issue with that, my school is not very hard core we are recreational but we do compete in tournaments. Some of our members have even competed nationally and internationally. We are definately not anything near SJSU but I am confident that most Aikidoka would have serious problems sparring with our Judoka.

Maybe he can make that claim with Judo clubs that do not do any competition and who are more "self defense" oriented like Mr. Jimerfield's dojo I mentioned above but thats all I will give him.
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Old 07-12-2004, 12:19 PM   #74
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Another suspect sign about this Judo Instructor, he is a member of the United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame, http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/ind2000.php These types of organization usually are created to inflate people's credentials.

Here are some useful links.

Vancouver Judo Club
Mr Steven Jimerfield
P.O. Box 6157 Vancouver, WA 98668
Phone: (360) 571-9665
EMAILl: sjimerfield@uswest.net
Website: http://www.jimerfield.com \

http://www.mararts.org/index.shtml

In the above link to the United States Martial Arts Association, scroll down and click the link labeled "Important news concerning the USMA Insurance Program" One of the reasons Phil Porter was removed from the USJF is that he allegedly lost insurance coverage for the organization, seems like the same thing is happening to this new group.
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Old 07-12-2004, 12:40 PM   #75
Clayton Drescher
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Funny about that Martial Arts Hall of Fame, my instructor recently tacked up the "certificate"(nice low-quality xerox) he received from them, I would almost guarantee he has never talked with them. I guess they just send out certificates randomly in hopes of donations?
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