Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-10-2004, 06:33 PM   #26
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,032
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I honestly think you guys must be dealing with some subpar Judoka if you are able to shut them down that easy. You might also want to take into consideration that these Judoka may be taking it easy on you as well, we deliberately do not beat down new people who are just starting Judo.
.

They definitely were not taking it easy and they definitely were not subpar.

but believe what you want to believe.

Craig
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 07:48 PM   #27
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Sorry but I really don't believe you guys. There is definately some embellishing going on.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-10-2004 at 07:55 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 08:41 PM   #28
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I've noticed that every time someone mentions a specific instance of being able to withstand a Judoka on these forums, Michael chimes in with insightful general statements which are usually one of these :

1) Judo is 100% superior to Aikido under all circumstances and all Aikido folks are wusses.
2) If you had a different experience, then you're lying. You're all lying ! I am surrounded by lies ! They're all after me ! They're saying that Judo is not invulnerable ! I'm having a seizure ! Someone call an ambulance !

Last edited by shihonage : 07-10-2004 at 08:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 09:11 PM   #29
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

No, what I am saying that is that an Aikidoka does not walk into a Judo dojo and start tossing people around or frustrating Judo blackbelts who does not fit into one of the exceptions I mentioned earlier. There is something being left out that could better explain what happened I am sure of it.

Quote:
Michael chimes in with insightful general statements which are usually one of these
No I mentioned a specific instance of an Aikidoka in this thread, there are other instances as well if you want to hear them.

Quote:
1) Judo is 100% superior to Aikido under all circumstances and all Aikido folks are wusses.
No, Aikido is a very useful martial art and can work in many circumstances, and there are some pretty tough people taking Aikido. There some people at my old Aikido dojo that I am sure could whup me good. However, these people are much stronger than me and have many years more martial arts experience than me.

Generally Judo vs. Aikido is a Judo win 9.9 times out of 10. I would be willing to wager on it. The training methods are so drastically different.

Quote:
2) If you had a different experience, then you're lying. You're all lying ! I am surrounded by lies ! They're all after me ! They're saying that Judo is not invulnerable ! I'm having a seizure ! Someone call an ambulance !
it is quite clear who here is losing their composure
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 09:19 PM   #30
Ian Williams
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 136
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Generally Judo vs. Aikido is a Judo win 9.9 times out of 10.

it's this sort of gross generalisation that gives very little weight to your cause...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 09:28 PM   #31
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

No I think it is pretty accurate given the fact that most Aikidoka do no randori training whatsoever and the ones that do spend little time with it, with the exception of Tomiki Aikido. I don't really see how you could possibly expect any different result.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 09:40 PM   #32
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Given how Ian above has effectively nullified your reply, I'm not going to spend time arguing with the bulk of it and instead take another cheap shot at you.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
it is quite clear who here is losing their composure
No need to be so hard on yourself, Michael
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 09:43 PM   #33
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I'd have to agree with Ian and Aleksey to a point.

If an Aikidoka fights a Judoka's fight then chances are he may get his butt handed to him, but the same goes for the Judoka who ends up fighting in the Aikidoka's realm.

It's like any other art - If the Aikidoka is unable to avoid a kick/punch combination, chances are the kick/punch artist will win, if the aikidoka succeeds at avoiding the strikes and gets off kuzushi and technique, the tables are turned. If a Judoka does not get a solid grasp on you at his (close) range to apply kuzushi and technique, then you have as good a chance as anyone to pre empt the Judoka's technique with your own. Skill and experience determine marginal variables that can affect this basic dynamic.

I'm not sure if Michael is assuming that the engagement takes place at the typical judo grappling distance. To me, if you're at this point you've alread lost your Aiki initiative. This is one reason why many Aikido techs tend not to work at Judo ranges while practicing in a judo dojo, the maai one is using is for Judo, not Aikido.

I simply cannot agree with that Judo winning 9.9 times out of 10 thing though. It comes down to the practitioner, not the practice.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 09:52 PM   #34
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
I'm not going to spend time arguing with the bulk of it and instead take another cheap shot at you.
Sure, why not when that's all you have

Quote:
If an Aikidoka fights a Judoka's fight then chances are he may get his butt handed to him, but the same goes for the Judoka who ends up fighting in the Aikidoka's realm.
And Larry, the art and how it is trained and practiced has a whole lot to do with it. Under what circumstances do you see a Judoka fighting a Aikidoka's fight and the Aikidoka winning? I mean sure if the Aikidoka keeps a distance by running away the Judoka will never get to throw him but I don't see how that is a win for the Aikidoka.

Ahh, I think I get it now. This all has to do with the Aikido philosophy of avoiding conflict. So what you guys did was go into a Judo dojo and ran around the place avoiding being thrown and consider that a victory and frustrating the Judoka's effort. It makes sense now.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-10-2004 at 09:55 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 10:11 PM   #35
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Sure, why not when that's all you have
Nah, that's merely all that I can be bothered with.
It's called "not feeding the troll".

troll

An individual who chronically trolls in sense - regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 10:12 PM   #36
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Speaking of avoiding conflict, if I may be so bold, I'd like to try to summarize this discussion and help cool it down. The salient points being argued seem to be:

1) Randori improves adaptability
2) Adaptability is important for 'cross-art' encounters
3) Ma-ai is important
4) An important part of such an "encounter" is to manipulate the ma-ai (presumably, shifting the ma-ai to one at which the majority of your technical training works)

Sounds reasonable.

Mr. Neal seems to believe that Judoka will generally have the advantage in adaptability and ma-ai, due to variant training methods. Others, like Mr. Sundeyev, think that aikidoka can be quite adaptable.

On the whole, I'd weigh in with the others. I think a blanket statement about "who will win X percent of the time" is perhaps true, but only in certain contexts. For instance, Michael's identified training style as a crucial factor, especially with regard to amount of randori. He notes that Tomiki aikido, and presumably some other styles, dojo, and practioners, are exceptions to this. Now, if Michael wants to say that people who study free-form technique have an advantage, I think that's sensible. It's more debatable if there's an advantage to having kata or randori practice as the primary form of training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 10:20 PM   #37
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
An individual who chronically trolls in sense - regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.
[/i]
then keep trolling away Aleksey, no one here has made personal attacks but you.

Quote:
Mr. Neal seems to believe that Judoka will generally have the advantage in adaptability and ma-ai, due to variant training methods.
Exactly my point. The training methods make all the difference. A Mixed Martial Arts fighter would in the same light come into a Judo dojo and probably defeat everyone there because they train that much harder and with less restrictions.

Quote:
It's more debatable if there's an advantage to having kata or randori practice as the primary form of training.
I am not sure that is really that debatable. kata is good for learning the moves but not applying them against a resisting opponent. A mixture of Kata and randori is necessary or effective technique at least against a strong and knowledgable oppponent.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-10-2004 at 10:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 10:21 PM   #38
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
And Larry, the art and how it is trained and practiced has a whole lot to do with it.
I agree that HOW the art is trained is immensely important. This does not mean that because "Insert Art Here" generally trains a particular way, that a particular individual training in that art may not enhance his own personal training outside of the dojo to meet certain objectives. As a result this person becomes an anomaly within the style or art he trains because he has sought to improve his training in other ways that is not typical to his dojo's training regimen. I have met Aikikai folks who do this and their technique as a result is a lot stronger and works better against resistance than an identically ranked person that may train in that same individual's dojo.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Under what circumstances do you see a Judoka fighting a Aikidoka's fight and the Aikidoka winning? I mean sure if the Aikidoka keeps a distance by running away the Judoka will never get to throw him but I don't see how that is a win for the Aikidoka.
To ask this question tells me you don't understand much about the application of Aikido's tactical elements in actual fighting (not saying that I do either, I only know what works for me.)

The instance I outlined above with the Ikkyu is an example of that - the Judoka lost the engagement when he decided to shoot for the arm and dedicate his weight and balance in a particular direction without seeing the set up for the following technique. I knew that if he got a hold on me the fight would go to ne waza. As such the best option was to get him at the point of the initial attack - deception with a bit of go no sen timing and a strong kuzushi did it. If he had pulled back when he saw me move, the dynamic would have changed and my next move would have been to restore maai that was preferential to me - issoku itto. At that distance I am in control, he has to come in to get control of me using Judo.

Had I been in his shoes using Judo, knowing that my opponent did Aikido, I would have released the arm and gone for a knee takedown before the initial kuzushi had taken full effect. But like I indicated before, setup, timing and kuzushi did not give him much of a choice. Another Judoka may have fared differently.

Going back to your "training methods" concept - how many Judoka do you know who train regularly to deal with and counter Atemi and Tekubi waza?

Interesting discussion folks.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 07-10-2004 at 10:26 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 10:42 PM   #39
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
then keep trolling away Aleksey, no one here has made personal attacks but you.
Nah, those were merely friendly nudges meant to give you a hint to stop and think, why is it that every time Judo and Aikido are mentioned, your buttons get pushed ?
Secure much ?
You're the one taking everything very personally, Michael.

Also, you do fit the core of the definition.


An individual who chronically trolls in sense - regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.


Surely I have degraded myself to your level as well, but thats the price we pay for engaging trolls. Hey, no one's perfect

Last edited by shihonage : 07-10-2004 at 10:45 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2004, 10:43 PM   #40
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Larry, I would have to honestly say that one weakness of Judo training is the lack of training against striking techniques. I have pointed out how I feel Aikido has weaknesses but Judo certainly has them as well. However, a striker would only have one or maybe two hits against a good judoka before they are grabbed, and these hits would be against a moving target coming rapidly in on them. There are very few people that can just knock somone out under such a circumstance with 1 or 2 panicking hits, so I still think the striker is still at a disadvantage.

The Judoka that put himself out of balance to grab your arm made a big mistake. Judoka rarely overextend themselves or put themselves off balance to grab somoene. In a situation where someone was keeping a typical Aikido distance I would personally probably just shoot for your legs and if that failed I would already be in the right distance to move on to another technique immediately.

And on kuzushi, there are some 300lb Judoka that have trouble getting kuzushi on me, I am pretty sure I am safe from most attempts from Aikidoka to force me off my balance.

I also would like to again say that you are a Nidan in a style of Aikido that regularly practices randori so you understand how off balancing applies in fluid situations.

Most Aikidoka do not practice this kind of randori on a regular basis and would not be prepared to spar with somoene like a judoka who on avergae spends at least half of each class doing free sparring.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-10-2004 at 10:52 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 01:02 AM   #41
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I imagine individual sensei, and each organization, has to make choices about what to focus on. There are millions of things to study, and we only have so much time on this planet to learn our respective arts. As Larry's mentioned, there's also the question of what you do in class, and what you leave for students to do on their own time. Not only might different sensei have different objectives - for example, what they think their students should learn first - but I would argue that different arts might well have different best methods. Perhaps judo is best taught with lots of randori, but aikido is best taught with more kata.

Would anyone object to ending this thread with a summary of, "Randori is important, and possibly neglected." ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 01:53 AM   #42
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,029
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
In Shodokan Aikido though we don't actually do Judo tecnique but use the same principles of kuzushi, timing etc. to execute Aikido technique.
That`s not limited to Shodokan Larry, Kuzushi and timing are fundamental to all Aikido techniques, regardless of style .


Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
No I think it is pretty accurate given the fact that most Aikidoka do no randori training whatsoever and the ones that do spend little time with it, with the exception of Tomiki Aikido.
Where on earth are the facts to back that up? We may not focus on randori in the same way as Tomiki Aikido, but I`ve been in pleanty of dojo`s that practice randori. In our association, the shodan tests end with a 3 minute 2 onto 1 anything goes (the numbers increase with the Dan level), the person testing has to be standing at the end. You don`t do this straight off the bat for the first time on the night and stay up. Whilst this may not fit the judo or Tomiki templates for randori, it`s still randori, and the same Aikido principles should be applied if the template changed. I`m sure that if it went to ne waza, we`d be toast, that `s pretty accurate given that nearly all Aikido dojo`s do no ne waza practice what so ever . However, the aikidoka would be aiming to stay on his feet, and that doesn`t necessarily mean running away to do so. If he stays up and keeps his ma ai, the percentage odds (assuming he has as much experience in Aikido as the judoka has in Judo) give him a better chance than 0.1%.



Rgds

Bryan

Last edited by batemanb : 07-11-2004 at 02:03 AM.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 04:11 AM   #43
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

My $0.03

This is almost a silly argument. You're going to outperform someone at something they specialize in, by *not* training in it? No - you're not.

Aikidoka vs judoka at judo / wrasslin? Aikidoka loses 99% of the time.

But...

aikidoka vs judoka at something else...?

Look - if a judoka is able to impose his game upon you, 99.9% it's over. (And more often than not, they can. Judo ma-ai is seems much more... "natural"? for scrapping. Judo maai "just happens" in RL. Aikido ma-ai / techniques aren't as 'natural' IMHO )

Here's a little something. It may not be applicable * , but I'll "throw" it (aha ha ha) out there.

I study judo, but I'm terrible, terrible at it. Yet when I feel like it, I have zero trouble taking my opponents to the mat, or countering their throws. It's ugly by judo standards, but I can do this because I've studied wrestling, BJJ, aikido, jujitsu and judo.

IOW - while they play judo, I play bob-jitsu. And, as it turns out, I'm fairly decent at bob-jitsu ;-) Why, you could even say that it was "my thang".

Who knows - maybe other folk grok-ed onto what it took me five arts to figure out? I don't know - most anything is possible.

Can't say I've beaten any black belts though ;-) In fact one soundly kicked my butt a few weeks ago by going at about 15% speed and strength. Real...aikidoish.

(* the reason I said that this might not be applicable is because the main art I study (1) Does "live randori" in similar spirit to judo (2)IMHO "live randori" against non compliant opposition, at clinch range is the biggest piece of this puzzle. You do that and it doesn't matter if you study Mongolian pimp wrassling. You'll still be able to give a good showing for yourself)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 04:41 AM   #44
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Michael Isn't actually trolling imo.

As an ex judoka he just sounds like any other judoka. If he gets his hands on you he will most likely throw you, if you go down to the ground you will be in a world of pain, confusion and exhaustion.

Of course we could digress into multi-opponents or weapons or striking waza but that would merely be turning it into an argument.

I will see if I can think of some stories for the thread too

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 05:10 AM   #45
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
Michael Isn't actually trolling imo.

As an ex judoka he just sounds like any other judoka.
Not really. There are several other judoka on this board, but Michael is the only one who starts beating his chest every time someone dares mention that they sparred with a Judo practitioner and weren't immediately thrown 99% of the time.

How dare they, they are lying, I'm tough, etc etc.

Last edited by shihonage : 07-11-2004 at 05:17 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 06:54 AM   #46
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Larry, I would have to honestly say that one weakness of Judo training is the lack of training against striking techniques. I have pointed out how I feel Aikido has weaknesses but Judo certainly has them as well. However, a striker would only have one or maybe two hits against a good judoka before they are grabbed, and these hits would be against a moving target coming rapidly in on them. There are very few people that can just knock somone out under such a circumstance with 1 or 2 panicking hits, so I still think the striker is still at a disadvantage.
I can agree with that. All I am saying is not to stereotype a "striker" or an "Aikidoka" or "judoka" into a pre-set pattern, else other things that they practice outside the obvious may come to shock you.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
The Judoka that put himself out of balance to grab your arm made a big mistake. Judoka rarely overextend themselves or put themselves off balance to grab somoene. In a situation where someone was keeping a typical Aikido distance I would personally probably just shoot for your legs and if that failed I would already be in the right distance to move on to another technique immediately.
Again, I totally agree. I knew he could shoot for my legs, which is why I made sure my arm was close enough to him so he could not ignore how easy it was to get at. It's called leading. A more experienced Judoka may have seen through the set up for an easy kuzushi and done something else. The shoot would not have helped him much either though imo, but it would have made things a little more difficult, all things considered. Like Paul said - it's what you decide to focus on.

My instructor used to practice a lot of judo to improve his competition Aikido, as a result he also learnt how dangerous certain Aikido practices could be if one is faced with a competent grappler. As a result we sought to minimise these openings in our own training from a long time ago. Maybe all these things are factors that come into play. Like I said - anomalies.

Also, one thing about "typical Aikido distance". In Chinese MA training I learnt that I could manipulate my ma ai to different ranges and be able to react effectively once I did a few things to make sure my CNS could detect things early enough and send the signals to my limbs. As a result, I tend not to always operate at Aikido ma ai, but play with it depending on who I am dealing with. I also apply this during Tanto Randori. Remembering my little thing with the Judoka, I don't think I was exactly using typical ma ai - I was pretty close, which helped him to think he could get the arm before I could react.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I also would like to again say that you are a Nidan in a style of Aikido that regularly practices randori so you understand how off balancing applies in fluid situations.
Though at the time of the encounter I was a Shodan, but I see your point.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Most Aikidoka do not practice this kind of randori on a regular basis and would not be prepared to spar with somoene like a judoka who on avergae spends at least half of each class doing free sparring.
And this is the crux of your argument, which makes sense - resistance randori training (not just kakari geiko aka basic randori as practiced by most Aikido systems) lets one develop things that are hard to develop otherwise, usually in the area of reaction, adaption, application of kuzushi etc. These things, when applied against someone like a Judoka may increase the Aikidoka's chances of success against the Judoka. This type of training however, is not in the mainstream. Is that correct?

If it is, let me know. I agree with this, but like I said earlier, beware of the anomalies who cannot be categorised, classified and catalogued.

Bateman: If you looked at the context of my post, I was replying to something that Michael said specifically about the training practices of Shodokan, my post was merely to qualify, not indicate that other styles didn't use kuzushi.

Also, I believe when Michael says randori he is implicitly referring to resistance randori, which is not what you are referring to in your post. In my experience, most folks from other schools catch sheer hell with Shodokan resistance randori, which is still Aikido. Michael's point is because of the absence of this sort of training in many other styles, it removes and edge that one may have against a Judoka.

As far as Michael's feelings go about the majority of Aikidoka, based on the training methods used, it appears that he has come across more than a few Aikidoka whose technique basically couldn't cut it when put under the pressure of resistance - Judo or otherwise. Sadly, I can't say that I have had dissimilar experiences. But this does not mean that we can generalise - there are many many anomalies out there.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 08:12 AM   #47
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
there are many many anomalies out there
Yes there are a few anomalies out there but that certainly does not prove my generalization wrong
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 10:48 AM   #48
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Not wrong, but perhaps ill-considered

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 12:02 PM   #49
MitchMZ
Dojo: Prairie-Aikikai
Location: Clive, IA
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I have about a year of Judo experience and about two of BJJ. I had basically tried to skip around in martial arts until I found one I loved. I love Aikido. Now for your comparison of Judo vs. Aikido. I think there are definitely weaknesses in Judo technique and Aikido technique. This weakness is lack of perfection in technique and timing. This is our failure, not the fault of the arts we train in.

But, my dad is a blue belt in Judo and he cannot throw me with anything he learned. Why is that? Simply, because I know everything that is coming. Suprise is a HUGE factor in a successful technique, and I am more centered now than I ever have been. IMO, train in both arts if you want because they both have a lot to offer. In fact, I'm thinking about training in BJJ again along with Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 12:48 PM   #50
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
But, my dad is a blue belt in Judo and he cannot throw me with anything he learne
I definatley think that is because of your year of Judo and 2 years of BJJ. I am sure that you Aikido helps some here but if you just had Aikido training I am sure your Dad would toss you pretty easily.

Aikido does help some in Judo, you are certainly better off than someone who has no type of grappling experience at all. When I first started Judo I was able to get some Aikido techniques to work on other students at my same experience level in Judo. But there was no way of getting it to work on a Judoka with more than 6 months of experience.

I think you all have to take another thing into consideration about walking into a Judo dojo and training. A Judo dojo is a learning environment, it is not a competition. During randori we try new things and take risks we would not do in Shiai.

When we train with beginners we let them throw us so they can learn. There are different levels of randori, whe I train with black and brown belts I go 100%, when I train with new white belts I go about 40%- 50%, my own level I go about 60-75%. So if you throw someone in Judo class there are plenty of reasons why it might have happened other than Aikido being effective againt Judo.

If you really want to honestly test your Aikido skills go to the Judo dojo and tell them you think you can kick their asses and want a match with one of them, I am betting that this will not happen though
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
So I took a Judo class today... shihonage General 107 06-16-2013 03:30 PM
Ancient Judo David Orange Open Discussions 2 01-17-2007 04:01 PM
Aikido as an alternative to judo kata? bob_stra General 13 06-04-2006 10:17 PM
Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 31 06-05-2005 09:00 AM
Aikido and Judo Mark Williams General 17 04-08-2004 12:35 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:32 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate