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Old 06-09-2005, 06:31 PM   #226
Zato Ichi
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
... there are just too many people in Aikido that are intimidated by Judo I guess.
In your case, I suspect reverse.
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Old 06-09-2005, 07:01 PM   #227
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
In your case, I suspect reverse.
Not in the least bit, I am perfectly willing to do randori using as many techniques as possible, including both Aikido and Judo techniques.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-09-2005 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 06-09-2005, 07:09 PM   #228
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I think the aiki-fruities must be happy, they are just sitting back and watching the two groups that they despise the most and that should have the most in common rip into each other, Shodokan Aikido and Judo.

It seems almost everyone I have argued with is a member of Shodokan Aikido, I guess it is the competitive spirit.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-09-2005 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 06-09-2005, 07:41 PM   #229
PeterR
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

And the cool thing is Hori-san is originally a Judo guy.

Rob no offense - Micheal I was using perfectly legal Judo randori techniques in Judo randori. My timing was unusual but finding that hook is what you are supposed to do in Judo. Sorry you feel that the lack of Koshinage tosses Shodokan Aikido out the window for you but ... well maybe its time to once again re-visit some of Tomiki's thinking.

Kenji Tomiki was one of Kano's direct students as he was of Ueshiba M. I think its fair to say he was well versed in both Judo and Aikido and the strengths and weaknesses of both. And here is the crux - he developed Shodokan Aikido randori not just because Aikido was missing a Judo randori element but also because Judo was missing atemi waza and a good chunk of useful kansetsu waza from its randori. The design of Shodokan randori is to emphasize the waza not found in Judo randori and a distance more conducive to the Aiki techniques.

The rules of Shodokan randori/shiai are designed with the above in mind. If you wish to become a more all round fighter Tomiki insisted you should do both and a couple of other things besides. You will find at Shodokan Honbu (current and historically) a large number of people that either came from a Judo background (Olympic level/prefectural champion) or cross-train. Because of this way of thinking Tomiki was pretty clear that when you train Judo do Judo, when you train Aikido do Aikido. That is not to say that when in a playful randori move the occasional Judo specific move is not tossed in there. I don't think anyone would have a problem with a Koshinage in randori - shiai is another matter. By the way Shodokan Aikido shiai does not have weight classes - another reason certain Judo techniques are not included.

FYI Yoseikan Budo has a randori style which does not make the distinction between Judo and Aikido randori.

Now once again - I did not enter a Judo dojo to demonstrate the superiority of Aikido technique - I just wanted to up my randori time with the closest thing to Shodokan Aikido randori I could find. As a bonus I am learning some neat tricks and insights into my own Aikido. Perhaps Michael that's were you are going wrong.

Last edited by PeterR : 06-09-2005 at 07:44 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-09-2005, 07:57 PM   #230
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Peter, the way you explain it it sounds very interesting and I wish there was a Shodokan dojo nearby. I was just reacting to those here that seemed offended at the idea of me using koshinage during regular randori. It just seems to me something that should be welcomed in order to develop all around good self defense skills.

I understand it would not be constructive to use Judo throws all the time at the expense of learning Aikido, it would just be a good element to mix in on occasion. For example: it would be interesting to practice doing seionage against a strike in a live situation since it seems like a great throw for that situation.
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Old 06-09-2005, 09:59 PM   #231
Talon
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Well Michael I'm sure that you can find an Aikido dojo that allows koshis in randori practice. I'm still quite new to aikido (only 3 years) and we do not yet do 100% resitance randori but during cooperative/semi cooperative randori that we do, koshis and any other tequniques are allowed. I'm told that once we get our techniques profficient enough and we can controll the technique such that we do not hurt eachother we will do resitive randori. The way things go now our sensei sometimes shouts "NO! or STOP" because we sometimes go too hard and he thinks someone will end up with a broken arm/wrist.

Michael, I'm sure you can find an Aikido dojo that would satisfy your desire for realistic training. I'm not sure how most of the dojo's practice, but we train pretty hard and from what I hear things will only get harder and more realistic in the years to come. I for one am looking forward to this since I belive a martial art should be "martial" and so does my sensei. We have people watching (thinking of joining) and some join but some say that they think it may be too ruff for them. Believe it or not but there are Aikido dojos out there that are martial and strive for realism.

I hope you can find one and train hard and maybe you'll change your opinions of Aikido's effectivenes.

Happy training,

Paul

Last edited by Talon : 06-09-2005 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:42 PM   #232
xuzen
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

About 2 years ago, my sensei sensed something was wrong with our aikido practice. We were doing the traditional Yoshinkan syllabus and we fairly good with the kata/waza but suck totally with randori / jiyu waza or resistant training. So he revamped the syllabus with very heavy emphasis on free sparring or jiyu waza. It took us a short while to adjust but we managed it well eventually.

Pro:
1) Newbies and children students learn ukemi much faster than traditional route.
2) One very quickly find out what works best for oneself and apply it to their best abilities during randori session
3) Randori is arguably as close to as possible to a real fight in a dojo setting... so this method of training IMO is a better way of mentally and physically preparing one for street encounter should the need arises than the traditional way.

Con:
1) As randori progress, I do see that most students tend to repeat their favourite techniques most of the time while ignoring the whole syllabus. Sometimes from the perspective of preserving the art, I feel that we may be losing some of it.
2) Randori is chaotic and dynamic... sometimes students use muscle to force a technique through. It still work though wrt face planting uke onto the mat. But again, from the perspective of preserving the art, I feel students may shortchange themselves wrt maintaining the aiki principles.

Just my rant people. I have done the traditional waza method and currently very involved with the jiyu waza/randori type of training and I can see the pros and cons from two side of the coin. I am not sure if the Cons are applicable to the Judo people, but the cons are something that is on my mind lately. Thoughts anyone?

Boon.

Last edited by xuzen : 06-09-2005 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Grammar correction

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Old 06-09-2005, 11:50 PM   #233
Red Beetle
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
but also because Judo was missing atemi waza
Austin Powers demonstrated over and over again that Judo is not missing Atemi-waza.
I quote: "Judo Chop!"

Red Beetle
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:12 AM   #234
batemanb
 
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I think the aiki-fruities must be happy, they are just sitting back and watching the two groups that they despise the most and that should have the most in common rip into each other, Shodokan Aikido and Judo.

It seems almost everyone I have argued with is a member of Shodokan Aikido, I guess it is the competitive spirit.

Where'd you get the idea us aiki fruities despise Shodokan Aikido and Judo?

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 06-10-2005, 05:08 AM   #235
wendyrowe
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
... So he revamped the syllabus with very heavy emphasis on free sparring or jiyu waza. It took us a short while to adjust but we managed it well eventually...
...I have done the traditional waza method and currently very involved with the jiyu waza/randori type of training and I can see the pros and cons from two side of the coin...
I think both traditional waza and randori are essential to having effective aikido (that's effective and that's aikido). I agree with your pros and your cons.

You can't really learn the techniques unless you do traditional waza -- over and over and over -- but you can't REALLY know them unless you can apply them on the fly and learn how you need to adjust your performance of them to fit the circumstances (such as against a resistant uke countering your every move). We also practice our traditional waza with increasing resistance as we practice and improve -- first dozens of times are very cooperative, then there's slight resistance, then more, etc.

You've absolutely right that when I'm doing randori I stick to the techniques I'm most comfortable with -- that's human nature -- so at times Sensei limits our techniques in randori to the set he wants us to practice. That slows things down a bit since both people are using less familiar techniques, but it's a good bridge between traditional waza and full-out randori.
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:04 AM   #236
rob_liberti
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Hi Wendy,

I agree wth everything you just said. My only concern in geneal with this kind of approach is the question of to what level of sophistocation are the techniques practiced prior to "testing" them out. It's something to always consider. A certain amount of depth can be reached in primarily competitive practice. I believe that beyond that point, can only be reached by going back to cooperative practice - and then by all means continue to test new degrees of depth out in competitive practice. I totally agree that going back and forth between the two is the way to then develop the ability under more and more pressure.

Rob
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:07 AM   #237
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

There is nothing wrong with getting comfortable with a set of techniques that work the best for you, because that is what you will use to defend yourself. There is no way you are going to be able to master all the various techniques in Aikdio and be able to use them all at will.

In Judo we learn all the techniques over time and need to demonstrate them for promotion but we are encouraged to develop a set of techniques that work best for you as an individual.
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:16 AM   #238
wendyrowe
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Hi Wendy,

I agree wth everything you just said. My only concern in geneal with this kind of approach is the question of to what level of sophistocation are the techniques practiced prior to "testing" them out. It's something to always consider. A certain amount of depth can be reached in primarily competitive practice. I believe that beyond that point, can only be reached by going back to cooperative practice - and then by all means continue to test new degrees of depth out in competitive practice. I totally agree that going back and forth between the two is the way to then develop the ability under more and more pressure.

Rob
Oh, absolutely. You don't give up on the cooperative model because you've "graduated" to the competitive model. You always need to go back to working cooperatively to improve the weaknesses you uncovered in competitive practice, and just because there's always something you can improve by deliberate practice -- body mechanics, trying out slight variations on the attack, more carefully considering the subtleties of the technique, etc. That goes for me in my aikido, karate, jujitsu and tai chi as well as music and probably everything else I do, so I assume it holds as well for judo. Any judoka out there want to chime in?
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:20 AM   #239
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

yes, we sometimes spend more time doing cooperative practice and drills than randori, it is all important.
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:28 AM   #240
rob_liberti
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

I keep hearing things like if you really get any one technique in aikido you understand all of them. As far as having an integrated mind, I can see that to a degree. But, I'm not going to pretend that I really get any of the techniques, especially since I believe that O-sensei was saying something about how he was still thinking about ikkyo when he died...

Rob
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:30 AM   #241
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I know Aikido and Judo are not the same but they do share alot of techniques as you mentioned, but I guess if I used them I would be accused by people like Larry of trying to prove Judo was better.
I didn't accuse you, I asked if that were the case or if I were wrong. English Michael, English.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
You just can't win no matter what you do, there are just too many people in Aikido that are intimidated by Judo I guess.
Yeah I can agree with that. But then they also tend to be the folks who don't train in martially effective Aikido either and as a result have little faith in its abilities.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I mean Larry had no problems using Aikido techniques against Judoka when it suited him to do so, but I guess that is OK though.
It appears that misquoting people is a great skill of yours.

In the past I indicated 2 situations where I sparred Judoka. One was after a TKD tournament and was open season and anything goes so he got put down quickly (and if I do say so, cleanly) by a kotegaeshi after trying to grab something (of course I suckered him into it and left my arm deliberately dangling out there, just within his grabbing range, but well within my kuzushi range).

The second situation was in a Judo dojo where I tried to do O-Goshi but since at that time (pre-Jujutsu training) all my Judo waza pretty much sucked, my attempted O-goshi turned into an outward turning, one handed Uki Otoshi and down went the Judoka. Other than that, keeping arms and back straight and weight low during stand up randori (a la tegatana and kuzushi drills in Aikido) kept things at a stalemate.

So it's not like I'm storming Judo dojos and using Aiki waza to beat up on beginners. I'm going there to learn things in an area my Aikido does not address well. Before my Jujutsu training I'd get my butt handed to me about 90% of the time in Judo or BJJ practice and it was cool cuz I wanted to get beat up to learn. Not anymore though, but now I use Ju waza effectively and can avoid slipping into Aiki waza when I'm in Judo.

The only reason the Aiki waza slipped in is because of what MJ said above about the techniques being branches on the same tree and it was just natural for me, but not a deliberate act. I don't need to go into a Judo dojo to prove my Aiki waza works. But it's good to silence the critics every now and then.

As far as general training goes, I think there should be an equal balance between forms and randori training since it can be very easy to modify the basic form when under the pressures of randori and if things are not checked back against a "correct forms" template one's waza can suffer greatly over time. Randori should help one develop spontaneous application of technique and counters but should also challenge one to maintain the proper form so that the quality of the technique does not suffer when met with a dynamic situation, since it is the use of correct form that makes it effective.

Just my thoughts.
LC

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Old 06-10-2005, 09:47 AM   #242
Michael Neal
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

OK lets just bury the hatchet, this topic is hurting my brain every time I look at it now.

I think we probably both agree on more things than we disagree on, so we should just focus on what we have in common and work from there.
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Old 06-10-2005, 11:13 AM   #243
guest89893
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Re: Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I keep hearing things like if you really get any one technique in aikido you understand all of them. As far as having an integrated mind, I can see that to a degree. Rob
Funny thing Rob, I always use to hear that in Judo.
I have not participated in this -since I started Aikido as a Judoka/jujitsuka. I have enjoyed the thread stories from Peter and others. I believe one should have a healthy respect for all good MA, and Judo does offer the opportunity to train in a different perspective(given as in any MA style a set of rules for engaement). I have been taught by Judoka incorperating Aikido ideas into their Judo, and Aikidoka incorperating Judo into their Aikido. The end result for both is better Martial Artists who continue to learn and grow (may I always be in that group).
Gene
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