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Old 07-09-2004, 09:11 PM   #26
Chris Birke
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Preach it brother Valadez. Amen!
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Old 07-10-2004, 06:31 AM   #27
DaveO
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

I agree with David concerning Yokomenuchi; though I'll qualify it a bit.
IMO; the way we perform the attack is ideal for the initial training of a technique - it provides a unique energy vector; as does tsuki, shomenuchi, etc.
However; we seem to have a tendancy to stop right there and not take it to its logical extension - more realistic attacks.
Now; folks are of two minds concerning this: 1) changing to more realistic attacks changes the techniques and thus the aikido; therefore, it is bad. 2) changing to more realistic attacks changes the techniques and thus the aikido; therefore, it is good.

You can imagine to what camp I belong.

Like all the proscribed attacks; yokomenuchi is brilliant for initial training; but if your intent is defensive; sooner or later you've got to take off the training wheels.

Cheers!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 07-10-2004, 08:18 AM   #28
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
This is how a person who has hit before and is intent on hitting you, is really going to hit you.
pretty sloppy punch. Amator's stuff. Very easy to deal with, even simple kokyu nage will work fine
These guys don't know how to fight at all.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-10-2004, 10:23 AM   #29
vanstretch
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

if danzig had not pushed while in the heated arguement, danzig may not have been decked.
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Old 07-10-2004, 07:23 PM   #30
Kyri Honigh
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

I agree with Daniel Vanhee, usually when a fight breaks out first thing they do is either push each other to provoke a reaction (verrryyyy stupid) or even worse they close the distance without any defense, bumping chests. A friend of mine got into a fight at school, he clobbered his opponent as soon as he went in for the shove. And my friend is not a great fighter, only a few months of kickboxing. I'd whoop him any day hehehe. Danzig was overconfident, expecting a more pacifistic reaction to a simple push. Before he realized it he was doing chin no jutsu on the blob's knuckles. (Blob is a pretty scary guy though..heheh).
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Old 07-11-2004, 02:53 AM   #31
Jorx
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
pretty sloppy punch. Amator's stuff. Very easy to deal with, even simple kokyu nage will work fine
These guys don't know how to fight at all.
I would say that if you call that "very easy to deal with" and say "even a simple kokyu nage..." then you don't know how to fight at all because you've never experienced anything that even resembles a fight.
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Old 07-11-2004, 06:27 AM   #32
markwalsh
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Slightly off topic, I hope no one minds:

Yokomen: I have been taught (BAF, UKA -Aikikai) that this cut enters at the head or collar bone, and continues down the line of the gi diagonally. Recently however a hombu shihan taught it as going sideways (like a hook punch), and said the other was kesa not yokomen. What is currently taught at the aikikai Hombu?

Sideways meks sense to me as it would cover the three planes (I.E. Tsuki - forwards and back, shomen - up ad down, yokomen side to side)

Cheers,

Mark
x
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Old 07-11-2004, 06:42 AM   #33
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
I would say that if you call that "very easy to deal with" and say "even a simple kokyu nage..." then you don't know how to fight at all because you've never experienced anything that even resembles a fight.
No my friend, YOU never experienced anything that even resembles a fight.
For example in boxing: such large punch is used only, when you set up opponent. It was not a case.
Next, This attack was so sloppy, cos attacker completely lost his balance. A real lamer.
When attacker is loosing his balance, kokyunage is the must! hehehehe
so Jorgen, before you write something, think twice

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-11-2004, 09:28 AM   #34
Jorx
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

The attacker lost his blanace AFTER the punch made contact with the other guys jaw...

The distance was short so "extending" the punch to kokyo would have been almost impossible (unless you are a superhuman being with superhuman reactions) - to react to the attack defining it's speed and place of target and then trying to execute an extending kokyonage (turning or just extending backwards) would have taken way too much time.

Sure this kind of attack would be very easy to deal with in an Aikido-pattern-training enviroment where there's proper ma-ai and you know that this kind of punch will eventually come at your jaw-height. But in a fight? No.
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Old 07-11-2004, 01:26 PM   #35
senshincenter
 
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Yes, I agree, I do not think this punch is thrown "off balance." One is just seeing the residual energy that is being dispersed along a dynamic state of balance - one which is the result of the initial resistance (the face) vacating the point of contact and the fact that the knocked out guy's body falls to the ground and bumps the puncher near or below his center of gravity. If the punch had really been thrown off balance, both of these elements would have had the guy falling down himself. The dispersion of residual energy along these lines cannot be used as a sign of someone throwing a strike "off balance." Any less a state of dynamic balance, so that one appears to be striking "on balance," would have required that less mass be engaged at the moment of contact - which would have resulted in less than desireable consequences (from the striker's point of view).

i also don't think that we should imply that this is an easy thing to defend against. Aside from the large amount of energy one would have to address (which requires that one's skill is very high in terms of blending - since even the smallest competing angle is going to compromise one's base - whether one deviates or not), the difficult issues here are the unknown (which is always present in actual combat but hardly ever present in training), the sub-conscious problematic of violence (which most folks outright dismiss in a rehashed rhetoric of non-violence), the physiolgoy of combat (which is not experienced in a training that is never intense and/or intense long enough), and the crowd situation, as well as other environmental concerns (it's one thing to not give your back to uke, it's a whole other thing to not give your back to anyone). It is because of these things, plus the fact that most Aikido training does not in the least way address any of them, that we are problably misleading ourselves by saying that this was an easy attack to deal with, "I would just do X."

Other topic:

Mr. Walsh said: "I have been taught (BAF, UKA -Aikikai) that this cut enters at the head or collar bone, and continues down the line of the gi diagonally. Recently however a hombu shihan taught it as going sideways (like a hook punch), and said the other was kesa not yokomen."

May I please ask: Was this shihan requesting by his prescribed architecture for yokomenuchi that you "open up" your strike? If he was, looking back, do you feel that he was proposing a response architecture that would not work against or could not address your original diagonal line? What was the tactical architecture of his response to the yokomenuchi he was requesting? Did he block against it - did he clash with it - did he pause in his angle of deflection - did he stop your strike from continuing onward along its path, etc.???

Just curious - because I'm always interested in the very intricate and subtle relationship that exists between our kihon waza architectures and the way we idealize our attacks.

Thank you,
dmv
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Old 07-11-2004, 04:01 PM   #36
shihonage
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
No my friend, YOU never experienced anything that even resembles a fight.
For example in boxing: such large punch is used only, when you set up opponent. It was not a case.
Next, This attack was so sloppy, cos attacker completely lost his balance. A real lamer.
When attacker is loosing his balance, kokyunage is the must! hehehehe
so Jorgen, before you write something, think twice
Szczepan, make sure you see the videoclip at its actual speed.

If you know what's coming in advance is one thing, but when you need to see whats coming and adapt to it in less than half a second, it changes things quite a bit.

Last edited by shihonage : 07-11-2004 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 07-15-2004, 07:52 AM   #37
DaveO
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Just wanted to ressurect this thread for a second to thank Jun for putting up that warning on my first post. I didn't think to put it in myself until it was suggested; sorry about that.
Thanks for the help; Jun.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 07-15-2004, 09:30 AM   #38
TexV2
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Thumbs down Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
Szczepan, make sure you see the videoclip at its actual speed.

If you know what's coming in advance is one thing, but when you need to see whats coming and adapt to it in less than half a second, it changes things quite a bit.
He should have known what was coming the moment he decided to shove the guy.

Marc

A flute with no holes is not a flute. A doughnut with no holes is a danish.
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Old 07-21-2004, 10:39 AM   #39
Magma
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Follow up on the request for information regarding the elevator assault video... anybody know anything about this besides what we have been told (drug addict, not his first assault, etc.)?

What happened to her? Was he caught? Put on trial? Sentenced?

TIA

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 07-21-2004, 11:17 AM   #40
DaveO
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Re: Reminder of what real attacks look like

Tim; details are sketchy - this happen in Russia about 6 months ago. I do know he was caught, arrested and charged; though what the outcome of that is, I'm not certain. He was a drug addict with a history of violence and was under the influence when caught.

And yes; she died.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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