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Old 02-09-2001, 10:56 AM   #1
Jim23
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What's the purpose of this forum?

Really, I'd like to know. But please, don't bother with the cliche answers.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 12:07 PM   #2
chrisinbrasil
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Purpose for this Forum...

I will try to be direct and sincere. I understand that this forum is to discuss and inform about martial arts/ways (especially but not limited to Aikido), your personal experiences in them, and your topics of interests or questions concerning them. What do you think itīs for?

At your service,
Christopher Wilson
Hito no tachiba wo kanga eru.
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Old 02-09-2001, 12:29 PM   #3
Jim23
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Christopher,

I agree with your answer. The problem that I find with many people here (and I suppose the same could be said for other forums for other martial arts) is that they are very defensive. So much so, that if I bring up an issue, they take it as a personal attack and accuse me of insulting aikido or worse, them.

For example, a while back I mentioned that I had watched a Ju-Jitsu class and was very impressed with the level of fitness, stamina and general skill of the teacher and students, and how I felt that in aikido there should be more training with punches and blocks (generally), otherwise they might be inneffective in the real world. Boy was I attacked for that and even told that I should take up Ju-Juitsu, etc.

Let's keep an open mind and not be so insecure.

Jim23


Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 12:49 PM   #4
chrisinbrasil
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Cool defensiveness

Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Christopher,

For example, a while back I mentioned that I had watched a Ju-Jitsu class and was very impressed with the level of fitness, stamina and general skill of the teacher and students, and how I felt that in aikido there should be more training with punches and blocks (generally), otherwise they might be inneffective in the real world. Boy was I attacked for that and even told that I should take up Ju-Juitsu, etc.

Jim23

Hey Jim,
I think what got you in trouble here is the part where you said that if Aikido didnīt adopt some of these techniques it might be ineffective. You see, most people(Aikidoka) donīt believe that it is necessary to incorporate other arts into Aikido for it to be effective, but believe that if performed correctly it would be. Thus, your statement might have stepped on some toes. I enjoy cross-training and donīt believe itīs a problem. Aikido, in my view, encompasses all movements which protect yourself and the other while controlling the situation. What it takes to control the situation is a whole īnother ballgame. Aikido, of course, has some distinct trademarks but I think you got the point.
Maybe you should take some JJ classes... I do.
You know... they can be defensive, Iīll grant you that, but you are easily offended as well. Iīve read the other threads.
Gotta go........ train......

At your service,
Christopher Wilson
Hito no tachiba wo kanga eru.
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Old 02-09-2001, 01:21 PM   #5
Jim23
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Hey Chris(topher),

You're right, I do take offense when attacked by someone who misinterprets what I said (wrote), and then they become insulting. People have a habit of reading what they want from a post, be it good or bad - human nature I guess.

I find open minds work quite well.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 02:24 PM   #6
Magma
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Ai symbol

Jim,
If I may respond for those others I have read and discussed this with:

You very often provoke reaction not because of what you say, but how you say it. Examples:


Which word are you having trouble understanding?
*************************
Where did this come from? I wish I knew what you were smoking when you wrote this.
*************************
Tim,
Yep, you are just talking. But, are you growing?
*************************
Don't fool yourselves.
The other stuff can work, but, please, don't try to punch an attacker - you're wasting your time!


And again in this thread "I find that open minds work best." With a not so veiled tenor of "So why doesn't anyone else on this board have an open mind?"

Put simply, Jim, it's your tone: belittling of those you don't agree with, dismissive of those you don't understand, and argumentative at the slightest (misinterpreted) provocation.

What is this forum for? I'll tell you one thing this forum is specifically NOT-for: Climbing the Mountain of Jim, where after years of arduous labor and toil in gaining the summit (each day spent living the precepts that Jim illumines for us) we find the Bodhisattva Jim ready to dole out more of life's truisms for his worthy disciples.

It doesn't work that way, Jim. People are going to have opinions contrary to your own, and they are going to believe them as fervently as you do yours. So what's the difference? Why are people coming down on you if we all know that you believe your opinions just as strongly as anyone believes their own? Again, I point to your tone. If you didn't sound as if you were delivering the next set of commandments in your posts, I honestly don't think that people would have such a strong negative reaction to your opinions. Rather, I think you would have what this forum is truly for: discussion and the sharing of ideas.

It seems you enjoy provoking people for the sake of argument, while trivializing the argument itself so that they seem petty for responding. For example, in this thread:
I find that open minds work better.
Who is going to argue with that. But the implication is that only you have the most-open mind of all.
Another example, from this and previous threads:
commenting on how defensive people are.
What do you expect people to reply to being called defensive? "No, I'm not"? How asinine is that.

Now, my suggestions (just to show that I'm not just coming down on you without advice, too):
1) change your tone - you can provoke thought and discussion without setting yourself up as the master delivering the day's koan for training.
2) think about what you're writing - is it a personal attack; if so, can you put it another way?
3) remember that we're all a community here - we're all exploring, Jim. And the belittling and jabbing that may take place elsewhere on the web in chat rooms and discussion boards should be left at the door, so to speak.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim


Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-09-2001, 03:18 PM   #7
Jim23
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Tim,

I find this all very strange.

I'm usually just responding to a rude answer. Also, some of my comments are made in jest (I should put a smiling face in).

I still stand by my comments regarding the punching though. Based on training and observation, I feel that Aikido punches are usually weak (let's not get into that now - of course some aren't) and karate punches are usually strong and judo throws are usually strong. But people get defensive when they hear this stuff. So should it not be said? Remember, if someone acts agressively toward me for no good reason other than a bruised ego, I'll hold up a mirror to them.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 07:20 PM   #8
Magma
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
I'm usually just responding to a rude answer....Remember, if someone acts agressively toward me for no good reason other than a bruised ego, I'll hold up a mirror to them.

Jim23
Jim,

All I'm saying Jim, is that you can hold up a mirror without being the mirror. And the more you're able to do that, the less rude/attacking responses you're going to get because
1) you're going to look like you're open-minded and in search of answers, too; and
2) people will look stupid attacking you for no reason.

Turn with the energy of the conversational-punch, rather than try to conversationally counter-punch.

... Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-10-2001, 07:33 AM   #9
Brian
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Quote:
Magma wrote:
Turn with the energy of the conversational-punch, rather than try to conversationally counter-punch.
You rock, man.
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Old 02-10-2001, 09:21 AM   #10
sceptoor
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Quote:
Brian wrote:
Quote:
Magma wrote:
Turn with the energy of the conversational-punch, rather than try to conversationally counter-punch.
You rock, man.

heh, heh, I agree 100%. The problem is that Jim won't "get it".

Anyway, I agree with Tim here;

Quote:
It seems you enjoy provoking people for the sake of argument, while trivializing the argument itself so that they seem petty for responding. For example, in this thread:
I find that open minds work better.
Who is going to argue with that. But the implication is that only you have the most-open mind of all.
Another example, from this and previous threads:
commenting on how defensive people are.
What do you expect people to reply to being called defensive? "No, I'm not"? How asinine is that.
These were the condescending type of remarks I was referring to. You also say we're being defensive without an open mind. I say "look into the mirror". In fact, I'll tell you(again) that I've been reading your posts for a while, and got sick of the belittling of Aikido, and these kinds of reponses were LONG overdue, as everyone in here was just bbeing too nice. I'm sorry, but SOMEONE HAD to say something. Let me get this straight, you jump into an aikido forum, ask a few questions, everyone answers you(most quite non-defensively), and you still linger around as if your questions weren't answered, then, the belittling starts.


Quote:
I still stand by my comments regarding the punching though. Based on training and observation, I feel that Aikido punches are usually weak (let's not get into that now - of course some aren't) and karate punches are usually strong and judo throws are usually strong. But people get defensive when they hear this stuff. So should it not be said? Remember, if someone acts agressively toward me for no good reason other than a bruised ego, I'll hold up a mirror to them.
It seems the fundamentals of aikido just zip right over your head. And are you implying that Judo throws are strong but aikido throws are not??(just asking) It's true that punching and kicking are not taught in detail in aikido, why?? Because it's Aikido, not Tang Su Doe, or Tae Kwon Doe. If an Aikidoka really wants to learn the fundamentals of punching and kicking in more detail, we'll be sure to take up those arts. Some aikidoka hold high rank in other MA's, so I wouldn't say their punches/kicks are "weak" or insincere. Maybe the confusion here is that you possibly think that Aikido senseis are "misleading" their students into thinking that Aikido is the ONLY effective MA and that we should all take a second look at it and decide to venture into a more "realistic" self defense. I have no problem with that, but I can personally tell you that this is not true(I can only speak for my dojo and it's organization ASU) of my sensei(s). My problem lies with your implications in all of your posts that Aikido is NOT effective.


I still haven't gotten an answer on whether or not you've actually walked into an aikido dojo.

C. Martin

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Old 02-10-2001, 09:21 AM   #11
Jim23
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Quote:
Magma wrote:

Turn with the energy of the conversational-punch, rather than try to conversationally counter-punch.
Tim,

I actually agree with what you've said here, however, I find some people here don't take this approach though. Take a look at the thread "Who said this?", I somehow don't think I was being sensitive.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-10-2001, 09:59 AM   #12
Jim23
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:


are you implying that Judo throws are strong but aikido throws are not??

If an Aikidoka really wants to learn the fundamentals of punching and kicking in more detail, we'll be sure to take up those arts. Some aikidoka hold high rank in other MA's, so I wouldn't say their punches/kicks are "weak" or insincere. Maybe the confusion here is that you possibly think that Aikido senseis are "misleading" their students into thinking that Aikido is the ONLY effective MA and that we should all take a second look at it and decide to venture into a more "realistic" self defense. I have no problem with that, but I can personally tell you that this is not true(I can only speak for my dojo and it's organization ASU) of my sensei(s). My problem lies with your implications in all of your posts that Aikido is NOT effective.
Chris,

Look at how this starts out ... Man.

Of course it's not true at your dojo, or many others. I never said that. And some people train in many different styles and some are young and some are old.

What I said was that punches and blocks are often unrealistically applied (and I know that is a thread in itself) compared to, for example, Karate. If some students choose to train in punches in order to be more effective, great! If they choose not to, that's also their choice. But If you don't have a good punch, you could be in for a shock (of your life) if faced by an attacker (after, you try to talk your way out of the situation, of course).

Now I know that many people know all that, but the effectiveness issue seems to always pop up, so I think it's a relevant observation. I have a strong punch after many years of karate and taekwondo, however, even I would question its effect on a crazed mugger.

I never meant that aikido is ineffective, or Judo, or Karate, etc. They're all effective and they're all ineffective depending on how they're trained and used. Also, someone who trains in Judo can (should) do better throws than someone who trains in Karate.

Now I'm being defensive.

Do I need to go into this much detail with each post? I'm sure I've missed many details here and have probably offended some people as well.

Jim23


Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-10-2001, 10:34 AM   #13
sceptoor
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What I said was that punches and blocks are often unrealistically applied (and I know that is a thread in itself) compared to, for example, Karate. If some students choose to train in punches in order to be more effective, great! If they choose not to, that's also their choice. But If you don't have a good punch, you could be in for a shock (of your life) if faced by an attacker (after, you try to talk your way out of the situation, of course).

I totally agree with this paragraph, but I have to disgree with one thing. I know this is going to "sound" defensive, but are you forgetting that Aikido uses what is called "atemi"?? This practice is usually started around the "Dan" ranks, some even earlier. I'm not saying one shouldn't have a good punch, but punches and kicks are "offensive" tactics. If you meant to say that an aikidoka will be shocked when faced with a good, solid, strong punch or kick, I agree to an extent. But I have to point out that the lack of committed attacks in the dojo is sometimes a problem, and sometimes not. But then again, a good aikidoka "hopes" for such a punch, as it makes it that much easier to throw the attacker. My sensei always points out that strong, sincere, committed attacks are important in training, and NAGE is not simply learning technique at UKE's expense. UKE has to be sincere, they have to try to show NAGE his/her weakness in whatever technique, so that they BOTH learn. Non-committed, insincere attacks do not help Nage, at all. I agree with that. "Timing" and correct distance is of utmost importance when dealing with such quick, strong attacks, and it takes years to develop good timing in these techniques, which is why in the beginning, static movements are more important at first.
Anyway, gotta run--

C. Martin

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Old 02-11-2001, 12:37 AM   #14
skittlehop
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atemi

Hmm...I thought atemi was just something to distract your attacker so that one could gain a split second of time to put them in a nikyo or a similar hold. Not something meant to really cause some damage. BTW, Jim, if you want to kick and smash things with punches, don't do aikido. If you want to learn a way to survive a fight without really caring what happens to your opponent, don't do aikido. Take up a street fighting class, like senshido (a great group of ppl btw, but not what I was really looking for). I see aikido as being something that you do so that you can fall without hurting yourself, not hurt other people both emotionally and physically, and get some excercise. Then maybe after 10 years or so, you can really start using it as an effective self defence.

-Ed
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Old 02-11-2001, 04:12 AM   #15
TheProdigy
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Hey Jim,

In answering your initial response, you know what the purpose of this forum is...

As for the answer you get, you need to understand the responses when considering who you are commenting and asking. From what I've seen here on this thread, you've accussed aikido as not being entirely effective and did not like the responses you've recieved. But consider this, you walk into a dojo of aikidokas and claim their art is weak and that their training has been foolish once they're faced with a great attacker. Do you expect them to agree? or that they'll not feel the slightest bit defensive?

I'm not saying that you asked a bad question, but rather perhaps you should take their answers for what they are, rather than being upset over the fact that the people answering have strong feelings over the topic. Perhaps they feel so strongly for a reason. If they attack back at you with any type of idea, whether its the simple "You're wrong, get lost.." or a good explanation explaining the strengths and weaknesses of the art, you should consider what they say as they may have a valid point.

Aikido is perhaps the hardest martial art to learn. The concepts are easy to understand, but quite difficult to impliment. My sensei said this. He trained in tae kwon do for nearly 2 decades, and with the same amount of time in aikido. Personally, I don't know the true effectiveness of aikido, but i know this: I once attacked him with a jo(staff) as he was demonstrating something for my partner, and the second his hand touched the jo i was helpless. I literally had a feeling of complete emptiness throughout my body, and no control over what was happening, until he had sent me flying and i could only choose between falling flat on my face or rolling to save myself. Since that day, I have had no question of aikido's effectiveness, only of whether or not anyone can learn to be as effective.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I agree with you that everyone should be more openminded (included both of us). And perhaps rather than taking the attack towards you as an attack, just take it as another idea, one contrary to your own, but nevertheless one worth consideration.

-Jase

Jason Hobbs
"As you walk and eat and travel, be where you are. Otherwise you will miss most of your life."
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Old 02-11-2001, 07:37 AM   #16
andrew
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Re: atemi

Quote:
skittlehop wrote:
Hmm...I thought atemi was just something to distract your attacker so that one could gain a split second of time to put them in a nikyo or a similar hold. Not something meant to really cause some damage.
-Ed
Think about it though. "Hmmn, I think I'll hit the sorest nerve point I can reach with a single knuckle, letting my whole weight go into the strike."

Distracting is where you try and get them to charge at a towel you're waving, and even then sometimes you have to jump over the protective barriers surrounding the tatami. Or something.
andrew
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Old 02-11-2001, 08:01 AM   #17
Jim23
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Jason,

I like your answer (and not only because I agree with it).

I'm always open to other opinions on any subject - always have been - and I really don't feel threatened by other views either, however radical or strange they may be. If I agree or disagree, it's just that: I agree or disagree.

Good answer though.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-12-2001, 01:53 PM   #18
chrisinbrasil
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Atemi

Quote:
sceptoor wrote:

This practice is usually started around the "Dan" ranks, some even earlier.
Hi,
Iīm having a little trouble understanding what you mean by atemi being trained in Dan ranks. Atemi is trained from white all the way up too Dans. At least it is everywhere Iīve ever been. Remember, atemi doesnīt only mean "punch". Weīre talking about controlling peoples centers, their balance.

Someone else wrote:
"Atemi is a distraction"... well, if thatīs what you want it to be. It can be a distraction or a bone crushing assault to the attackers face or ribs (not that itīs the best atemi). Itīs what you make of it.
"Aikido is only useful in the higher ranks"... well, sorry chum, I disagree.
toodloo,

At your service,
Christopher Wilson
Hito no tachiba wo kanga eru.
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Old 02-12-2001, 03:11 PM   #19
Magma
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Atemi as I understand it refers to strikes which in themselves are not the end product of technique but rather can help to set up technique.

I bring this up since I disagree with ChrisinBrazil in his interpretation of atemi, but agree with him that atemi (even the "striking" definition I have given) have been practiced throughout the ranks everywhere I have trained.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-12-2001, 04:15 PM   #20
Jim23
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Could the different opinions regarding atemi be based on whether you train in an older style, like Yoshinkan, or a more modern style like Aikikai or even Kokikai? Perhaps even your sensi's philosophy?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-12-2001, 08:03 PM   #21
sceptoor
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
chrisinbrasil wrote:
Quote:
sceptoor wrote:

This practice is usually started around the "Dan" ranks, some even earlier.
Hi,
Iīm having a little trouble understanding what you mean by atemi being trained in Dan ranks. Atemi is trained from white all the way up too Dans. At least it is everywhere Iīve ever been. Remember, atemi doesnīt only mean "punch". Weīre talking about controlling peoples centers, their balance.

Someone else wrote:
"Atemi is a distraction"... well, if thatīs what you want it to be. It can be a distraction or a bone crushing assault to the attackers face or ribs (not that itīs the best atemi). Itīs what you make of it.
"Aikido is only useful in the higher ranks"... well, sorry chum, I disagree.
toodloo,
Hi,
You're having trouble understanding because you're not reading the complete sentence. Try again, I said "SOME EVEN EARLIER", but I was specifically referring to the striking kind. I understand that atemi can be and is practiced long before Dan ranks, it's called "being a good, sincere Uke", but it depends on the sensei and/or the students' progress. As far as whomever said Aikido is only useful in the higher ranks, I'll have to disagree also, I just won't say "toodloo".

C. Martin

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Old 02-12-2001, 08:59 PM   #22
Matthieu
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Atemi

Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Could the different opinions regarding atemi be based on whether you train in an older style, like Yoshinkan, or a more modern style like Aikikai or even Kokikai? Perhaps even your sensi's philosophy?

Jim23
It has to be because we don't use atemi much in Yoshinkai aikido. The only one we use usualy are small punches using the back of our hands. These punches are mostly directed to to face of the uke to gain the half a second.

I really would like to know though how the other styles use their atemi.

When you learn to love hell, you will be in heaven
-Golas
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Old 02-13-2001, 02:22 AM   #23
JJF
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Matthieu wrote:
The only one we use usualy are small punches using the back of our hands. These punches are mostly directed to to face of the uke to gain the half a second.

I really would like to know though how the other styles use their atemi.
Hi Matthieu

I practice Shojii Nishio Sensei Aikikai style. We use the distracting punches that you describe but as far as I have understood atemi is far more than that. I think atemi is the strike that you potentially could hit uke with, on various places during the technique. What makes it Aikido is to choose not to use this possible punch but instead redirect the power into the technique.

Am I making sense ? I believe this is a good way to think about atemi but I can not do it. Perhaps one day

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

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Old 02-13-2001, 06:39 AM   #24
ian
 
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Although I generally train with atemis, I do think it can actually stop the flow of movement and also open yourself up for a counter attack. I think it depends on how much you have sussed out your opponent - people who are flailing madly at you with the sole intent of bursting your kidneys generally don't need any distractions, they have pretty low zanshin to start with.

Ian

P.S. I would also agree that some people do feel defensive about aikido being ineffective. Ineffectiveness has worried me from time to time, so what I've done is try to think why this is so; chat to people and make sure that my aikido is not ineffective (and I'm not talking about just making it stronger/harder, probably more the opposite) as well as seeing what other martial arts can and can't do. Its good we can have these forums to criticise techniques etc. Most criticism just improves me, rather than making me feel like it belittles my ego and my impression of myself as this superb martial artist. - so keep those criticisms coming (but more specifics would be better)!

Ian
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Old 02-14-2001, 10:15 AM   #25
RobTrim
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Hi forum,

Poor old Jim 23! I think some people on this list need to practice what they preach!! (sorry that sounds really conroversial!! )

To answer your original question Jim, I too think think that this forum is merely an open and interesting way of sharing thoughts/ideas/experiences etc.. with other people (and not necessarily like minded either!). Also I'll echo your praise of Jason's response; very well put buddy!

I'd just like to add some thoughts on the atemi issue. I think I heard somewhere that 'atemi' could be translated as 'to strike the body'. Seems pretty straight forward! There are obviously many different takes on the use or necessity of atemi in Aikido.

My personal opinion and experience, through practice, contact with Aikido senseis (including my own), books (o-sensei, Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Saito etc..), and various other sources, is that atemi are an integral part of Aikido. To me they are part of every technique I perform. Even if I do not land a strike, or even indicate one, I am thinking about where one could go.
In my dojo they were tought from the start of my training.

I think one of the biggest areas of division concerning atemis, is their 'purpose', i.e. are they there to distract, disable, knock out etc..

Some people feel that if you can knock out an opponent with a strike, then why practise Aikido? Or that this use of Atemi is an offensive tactic, rather than defensive like other Aikido techniques. In my view, if they were good enough for O-sensei, then they are good enough for me!!

No seriously, they way I have trained is to make use of kyusho techniques. In my opinion kyusho are inseperable from the use of atemi and can often limit the damage done to you attacker - i.e. follow Aikido principle - while rendering them temporarily unable to resist you technique. If you render them unconscious though the application of an atemi - which is very possible through the exploration of kyusho techniques - then you are probably again saving that person from a hell of a lot more pain, after receiving a strong shiho-nage or kote-gaish (i.e. possible shoulder dislocation - wrist break).

What do you think guys?

Peace

Rob.
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