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Old 06-16-2004, 12:18 PM   #1
tony cameron
Location: portland
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Ai symbol O Sensei's Diet

hi all,

i have been doing some research on various aspects of Aikido that i would like to incorporate into my life such as kotodama, misogi and proper diet. can anyone please suggest a book or website that has specific details regarding these? i find quite a bit of useful info regarding kotodama and misogi, but i can't seem to dig up any specific dietary outlines with regards to properly alkalizing the blood etc. specifically i would like to find out exactly what O Sensei ate, how often, and when. i know that fish vegetables and rice were prominent, but i would like to know very specific guidelines or routines that O Sensei practiced with his diet (eg. how much digestion time should elapse before training, what and when did he eat after training, in the morning, etc. etc, you get my drift thank you for any information.

sincerely,

tony cameron
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Old 06-16-2004, 12:33 PM   #2
happysod
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Why?? Are you the same height, weight and bone structure as Osensei was at the age you have currently reached? Have you ensured that your calorific needs are the same?
For example, are you going to need to wrestle bears (or kill bandits) as you may want to include some supplements to ensure full health during these stressful exercises.

Finally, just WHY????????

Please someone explain this to me as I was not aware of Osensei renowned abilities in the areas of diet and nutrition.
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:51 PM   #3
Chris Birke
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Almost every top fighter/master i've known has had some sort of special diet that they claim is essential to their preformance. It's a popular discussion.
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:57 PM   #4
taras
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=114

scroll to the bottom of the page

good luck to you
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Old 06-16-2004, 03:00 PM   #5
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Quote:
tony cameron wrote:
...proper diet....specifically i would like to find out exactly what O Sensei ate, how often, and when. i know that fish vegetables and rice were prominent, but i would like to know very specific guidelines or routines that O Sensei practiced with his diet (eg. how much digestion time should elapse before training, what and when did he eat after training, in the morning, etc. etc, you get my drift thank you for any information.
Gleason's The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido touches on this, but doesn't go into great detail. He seems to imply a connection with Macrobiotics. A poster here, Fred Little, recently had several books for sale on e-Bay on just this topic, I believe, by George Osawa.

Good luck.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 06-16-2004, 03:14 PM   #6
Alfonso
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4916

you may want to ask Mr. Ravens some info on the diet as well. Keep searching; there are posts about this on the net.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 06-16-2004, 04:32 PM   #7
kung fu hamster
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

I may be completely wrong, but I had the impression that a lot of people in Japan were kind of starving and going through hardship during a lot of those years, and I'm thinking perhaps O Sensei was no exception. A prominent sensei told us at a seminar that during his uchideshi years at Hombu he was just about eating a diet of potatoes, and it wasn't by choice. I understood that the dojo went through some rough times while O Sensei was alive.
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Old 06-16-2004, 06:05 PM   #8
Chris Li
 
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Quote:
Linda Morimoto wrote:
I may be completely wrong, but I had the impression that a lot of people in Japan were kind of starving and going through hardship during a lot of those years, and I'm thinking perhaps O Sensei was no exception. A prominent sensei told us at a seminar that during his uchideshi years at Hombu he was just about eating a diet of potatoes, and it wasn't by choice. I understood that the dojo went through some rough times while O Sensei was alive.
Most of the starving went on in the cities. People out in the country (where the farms are) mostly had it quite a bit better. Kisshomaru used to make weekend trips out to Iwama in order to bring food back to Tokyo.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-16-2004, 06:52 PM   #9
Jorge Garcia
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

O' Sensei was also friends with George Osawa, called "Mr. Brown Rice". I guess that name speaks for itself. He always told O' Sensei to eat brown rice and recommended to him what would now be called the macrobiotics diet.
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-16-2004, 08:12 PM   #10
Infamousapa
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

I have no info on O sensei's diet,But before I started training aikido I would eat like a monster.I mean dinner,lunch,dinner,breakfast,desert,dinner,you get the point..But since ive started aikido ive learned to listen to my body.I now have a proper breakfast,lunch and dinner.And I stop or i feel when im fool now..As for your question I dont have the answer but you should eat like a king for breakfast.a prince for luch.and a peasent for dinner...
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Old 06-16-2004, 08:33 PM   #11
shadow
Dojo: Aiki Kun Ren (Iwama style)
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
O' Sensei was also friends with George Osawa, called "Mr. Brown Rice". I guess that name speaks for itself. He always told O' Sensei to eat brown rice and recommended to him what would now be called the macrobiotics diet.
Best,
brown rice is the best, along with brown flour, wholemeal pasta, simply put any of it that is unrefined.
i really dont understand why we even bother to undergo the extra process to make foods white??? i mean it basically kills the nutrition we would get from it. the dissapearance of the husk means there is no longer any fibre in it, which means we basically can't digest the carbohydrates....

anyway the best advice i ever found about diet was to understand the ratio in which we naturally should be eating our foods.
i remember in first year uni biology we looked at the skulls of dead animals and their dental structure to determine the kind of diet they would eat. basically the same applies to us!
we have 16 molars (& premolars), 8 incisors and 4 canines.
molars are for crushing grains, like rice (and to a lesser extent vegetable matter), incisors are for cutting vegetables and fruits, canines are for tearing meat.
this is the ratio we should be eating e.g. 4:2:1 , 4 parts grain to 2 parts fruit and veg, to 1 part meat. most people will adhere naturally to this ratio although many people eat far too much meat.

as for attempting to emulate o'senseis diet, well you dont live in japan so the natural local seasonal food is going to be different.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 06-16-2004, 08:41 PM   #12
Erik
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Before we go down the very tired road that is macrobiotics I'd like to quote Kevin Wilbanks

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Of course I can't let all these far-flung claims about nutrition go by unchallenged. While the dietary recommendations produced by the Macrobiotics system certainly end up as superior in many ways to the average American diet and many of the lifestyle recommendations seem sensible, it is only tenuously based on science, at best, and many of the claims made about the diet's effects are irresponsible and unsubstantiated.

In viewing the "Great Life Pyramid" from the perspective of contemporary nutrition and exercise science, several serious problems are apparent:

1) The recommendation does not include nearly enough high-quality protein foods, especially for athletic and otherwise vigorous individuals. In order to gain muscle mass, for instance, studies have shown that anything less than .8 grams per pound of bodyweight of high-quality (animal source) protein impedes progress, if lower quality protein is emphasized, that amount becomes more than 1 gram per pound of bw. From an athletic perspective, limiting all meat, fish, eggs, dairy, and even nuts to weekly or monthly consumption is just plain foolish... maybe on the order of about 1/10th or less of adequate intake.

2) Without the use of processed nutrition supplements, this diet will put one at risk for several macro and micronutrient deficiencies and lead to malnourishment problems. The most salient examples that come to mind are: iron, B12, omega-3 oils, cholesterol and saturated fats, and of course protein. I'm not that familiar with the sea vegetables, but I have read that some contain B12 and may take care of that issue - otherwise there is no significant non-animal source of B12.

3) Whole grains are over-represented, which may contribute to other malnutrition issues. First, when grains are such a large portion of the diet, many other foods and nutrients are crowded out (i.e., the ones crammed into the peak of the pyramid). Second, whole grains contain substances currently dubbed "antinutrients", as they tend to block the uptake of certain other nutrients, particularly biotin. I can't find the article, but I read an anthropological article which linked widespread malnutrition problems to populations which relied on whole grains for more than 50% of their diet.

As far as claims about the macrobiotic diet curing everything from cancer to depression to diabetes, to who knows what: these are merely wild, scientifically empty claims. A handful of zealous testimonials does not constitute proof. In order to prove, suggest a cause-effect relationship, or even strongly associate a dietary or other behavior with disease risk, one needs studies - preferably carefully monitored, placebo-controlled ones in which hypotheses are deliberately tested... at the very least one would like to see some epidemiological analysis. Impressive-sounding anecdotes are of little value in this regard.

However, if you want my anecdotal observations, every person I've ever known who followed a macrobiotic or vegan diet was abnormally skinny, apparently anemic, and seemed to have persistent frizzy-hair and bad skin... all of which are consitent with the deficiencies of these diets.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ht=macrobiotic
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Old 06-16-2004, 08:46 PM   #13
PeterR
 
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Didn't Ueshiba M. suffer from rickets when young. The cause of course is a vitamin B deficiency often associated with a diet of polished rice. The brown rice diet is a simple expansion of a cure for some ailments into a panacea.

The second last post was pretty good.

The key word is moderation and that includes the use of special diets.

Last edited by PeterR : 06-16-2004 at 08:57 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-16-2004, 10:05 PM   #14
jk
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

So, any of you folks on the Atkins diet?
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Old 06-16-2004, 11:29 PM   #15
PeterR
 
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Quote:
John Kuo wrote:
So, any of you folks on the Atkins diet?
It's sort of a running joke at work. I'm tired of white rice so I end up just taking the main course. Every time (and it is often enough) a Japanese asks me why I don't eat rice the gleeful response (not by me) is that I'm on the Atkins diet.

I made my opinions known quite strongly about the Atkin's diet. Seems no one forgets.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-16-2004, 11:54 PM   #16
Erik
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
I made my opinions known quite strongly about the Atkin's diet. Seems no one forgets.
I seem to have forgotten.

I suspect John might be trolling for Erik as well.
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Old 06-17-2004, 10:02 AM   #17
daniel chong
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Hello,
I'm a naturopathic physician and although my aikido experience is far from extensive, I do have a fair bit of knowledge in the realm of nutrition. In fact, it is my main focus in my practice. I would not recommend the macrobiotic diet to be used for anything more than a during a short period of cleansing and detoxification. It does not have enough good fat, or high quality protein, both of which are crucial for overall health especially if you are active. I would also say forget about Atkins and all the other diets out there whose main focus is weightloss and not health. No one will ever be able to prove to me that an Atkins brand shake or bar is actually good for you, even if it is low in carbs! It is a good idea to decrease the amount of carbs in your diet, as far as grains and flours and sugars go, but veggies and fruit, as well as high quality animal food, like grass-fed beef and lamb, and free range poultry should make up a significant portion of it. I would also re-read Erik Haselhofer's post on this thread, from 6/16. Some very good points there. Finally, for the best and most extensive info on eating a health promoting diet, see www.westonaprice.org, www.paleodiet.com and www.mercola.com.
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Old 06-17-2004, 10:11 AM   #18
Bronson
 
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

Don't forget to drink saltwater

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-17-2004, 10:40 AM   #19
Ron Tisdale
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Re: O Sensei's Diet

mmm, yes, copious amounts....

R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:21 AM   #20
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: O-Sensei's Diet

Quote:
tony cameron wrote:
hi all,

i have been doing some research on various aspects of Aikido that i would like to incorporate into my life such as kotodama, misogi and proper diet. can anyone please suggest a book or website that has specific details regarding these? i find quite a bit of useful info regarding kotodama and misogi, but i can't seem to dig up any specific dietary outlines with regards to properly alkalizing the blood etc. specifically i would like to find out exactly what O Sensei ate, how often, and when. i know that fish vegetables and rice were prominent, but i would like to know very specific guidelines or routines that O Sensei practiced with his diet (eg. how much digestion time should elapse before training, what and when did he eat after training, in the morning, etc. etc, you get my drift thank you for any information.

sincerely,

tony cameron

Mr. Cameron,

Thank you for your private e-mail. I am sorry that I have not had a chance to answer your questions. Given the breadth of material about which you are inquiring, I would like to attempt to do so when I have a considerable block of time to allot to my reply. Unfortunately, that won't be until some time next month. However, I have a few things I would like to offer as a way of balancing the information that has already been "presented" here.

1. Kototama - For now, I wouldn't bother with this subject, as according to my sources, there isn't anyone capable of teaching it in the context that O-Sensei was using it. Yes, there are hoards of religious and scholarly types with all sorts of interpretations, all of which are valid inside of their own contexts, who would be able to offer much, however, nothing related to the method of actualization required to incorporate this into your aikido practice at even the most basic level.

2. Diet - There are many dietary issues to confront when attempting to travel the path set out by O-Sensei. However, his daily diet, as noted in Homma Sensei's notes would not be one of the ones that you would need to understand or follow in order to be initiated into the path of misogi. O-Sensei's daily diet was more of a "maintenance" plan, rather than what you would need to follow before setting out on a misogi-kai.

3. Macrobiotics - Please do not take the information found in the negatively slanted posts representing outsider's views of what macrobiotics is or is not, or what it can or can not be accomplished following the principles of macrobiotics. This is especially true of the views of individuals who can only operate inside of the methods given to them by a wholly western scientific methodology. Not that there is anything wrong with such methodology, only that it, like all methodologies, has the flaw that it attempts to treat all knowledge with the same set of rules. According to the dialectic principles, this is entirely impossible.

The path you have outlined for yourself is as noble as it is steep. Therefore, I recommend that you find yourself a teacher who can guide you along the perilous slopes you will encounter along this particular path.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 06-19-2004 at 12:30 AM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 06-20-2004, 03:10 AM   #21
PeterR
 
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Re: O-Sensei's Diet

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
This is especially true of the views of individuals who can only operate inside of the methods given to them by a wholly western scientific methodology. Not that there is anything wrong with such methodology, only that it, like all methodologies, has the flaw that it attempts to treat all knowledge with the same set of rules.
That's right - scientists require proof rather than faith. Evidence rather than salesmanship. Ignore us - we're flawed. Any claim, no matter how outlandish, should be accepted because it is believed by at least someone to be right.

If it's benign no problem. Less of this, more of that, the human being like all omnivores is extremely adaptable. But do you really want me to go into the near and total fatal diet fads that used the science is flawed argument to bolster their bullshit.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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