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Old 06-13-2004, 01:12 PM   #26
Megan L'H
Dojo: New Life Aikido
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Do yourselves a favor: get a dictionary and look up the definitions of 'violent'; then debate.
Cheers!
L'H.
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Old 06-13-2004, 03:45 PM   #27
dan guthrie
Dojo: Aikido of SLO
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

On the other hand, is violence always bad? I don't think so, or I'd be a pacifist. If a child is running into traffic and the safest way to stop him/her is to grab them violently (tackle or a quick grab for a trailing sleeve), is that bad? If someone is robbing you and you can avoid violence by giving them your money, is that always good?
I think there's good violence and bad violence. I think one of the virtues of Aikido is that it gives us the option of diverting bad violence. Most other martial arts respond to violence with more violence.
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Old 06-13-2004, 04:46 PM   #28
shihonage
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

The violence level you have to apply in your self-defense is MOSTLY up to the attacker.
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Old 06-13-2004, 10:09 PM   #29
kironin
 
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Aikido is a mirror. Whatever you have inside you will be what gets reflected in your Aikido.

Aikido is not violent. Men are violent. Aikido is a method of personal development which should point you to the issues on which you need to be working. Doing Aikido shows you for what you are. If that is violent, then your Aikido will be violent Aikido. But it's you who is violent, not the art.

I was about to reply to some of the astoundingly bad statements in this thread and then I read this. Truer words have never been spoken.
I could add nothing more except to say I wished I had wrote it.

excellent,
Craig
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Old 06-13-2004, 10:14 PM   #30
paladin
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

I'm a newbie when it comes to the art of aikido, but please here me out before you pounce on me for my lack of knowledge. I'm speaking from what I know and have seen in my life.

I understand what Jordan is talking about and maybe I can help him get his point across. I recently got into this same discussion with my sister and mother over whether or not I should take up this art.

Aikido is violent but not in the respect that most people think of when it comes to violence.

One definition of violence is Moving or acting with physical strength; urged or impelled with force; excited by strong feeling or passion; forcible; vehement; impetuous; fierce; furious; severe;

Now you can apply that definition to just about anything. From Karate to boxing to playing American football or rugby.
You see in these instances the goal is to knock your opponent down or out using maxim force. I can especially relate to that as I have played football for a number of years and have had the mantra to be agile, mobile and hostile, drilled into my head. We were taught to hit through your opponent. Make them think twice before catching the ball. That's violence.

However another definition of violence is: Produced or effected by force

And I think it's this definition that best fits aikido. When a confrontation reaches to the point of physical contact, the goal of an aikidoist is not to knock out the opponent using MAXIMUM force but to resolve the encounter using MINIMUM
force. Yes, physical contact will be made, which makes it violent ,however, it's done in Self-defense meaning there is no unnecessary force used. That's why Aikido is a true martial art of self defense.

My sister who is a non-aggressive person in the world is taking a self defense course. There she's taught how to escape from attackers. One technique she was taught was to take her keys and use them as claws to get away from an attacker. Is that violent, yes. But it's in self-defense. She's not taught that after she claws her attacker she should stomp this guy in to the ground. She's taught to run and get help. And that's what self to defense is all about...doing what needs to be done to get out of the situation, not to beat someone's head in so that you have some sort of rep, so no one bothers you.

After seeing an Aikido class I do believe that the physical aspect of Aikido is self defense...trying to control yourself and the situation to the best of your ability so that in the end minimal damage is done to you and your opponent.

Will it always work out that way? It most certainly will not. But hopefully none of us here will be forced to find out.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 06-14-2004, 12:41 AM   #31
Largo
Dojo: Aikikai Dobunkan/ Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

I would say that Aikido is violent. I would also point out that there are levels of violence. We do a martial art (or, at least, I do ) Ikkyo and nikkyo can be violent. But the effects vary based on how far we carry the technique. I can use a nikkyo to project someone away from me, pin them onto the ground till help arrives/ they calm down, or follow up the pin with something like a stomp to the back of the neck for a lethal finish. All of this is contained in our art.
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Old 06-14-2004, 11:46 AM   #32
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

If it's not violent, then how can we practice harmony?

If both of you are "practicing harmony" that's not aikido, it's choreography...

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 06-14-2004, 06:14 PM   #33
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Aikido can be as violent as anything else.
It does however give you more options than some other art that only teaches punching or kicking.

And Jordan, just listening to the Aiki-fruities singing kumbiyah (sp?), etc is just as misleading as the combat-[insert flavour of the month UFC darling MA here] junkies.
Most people are somewhere in the middle.
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:23 AM   #34
happysod
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Quote:
One technique she was taught was to take her keys and use them as claws to get away from an attacker
- Do they really still teach this rubbish?? NO!! - she's more likely to break her own fingers than have any effect on her attacker - if you're going to use a weapon, get a proper one and learn how to use it.

On the subject of violence, as an aikifruity I have to say (as in previous threads) that good intentions in your heart does not equal non-violent. It is your actions (and their results) that determine whether it's violent or not and this determination is to be made by a third party/society not you. Aikido is a martial art, therefore it is violent. You are attempting to minimise that violence, but it's still violent.

Why do I suggest a third party for the definition? Let's take some ridiculous extremes. Most sociopaths don't consider what they do to be wrong as you don't really exist. A zealot (of any stripe) killing in the name of their religion is not wrong, it's defending the faith. Killing someone can improve their karma at risk to yourself (paraphrased from this site). If these nuts are not allowed to be adequate judges of their own actions, what gives the "love in my heart" while I break something bunch the right to judge themselves...
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:03 AM   #35
villrg0a
 
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Quote:
Daniel Linden wrote:
The sole and total purpose of iriminage is to break an attacker's neck. If an individual believes otherwise he/she should find something else to do. Aikido is as violent as any other martial art. It gives us an option to greater or lesser degrees when there is an option, but it is a Military Art.
Hi Daniel

You are right the purpose is to break, but you still have the choice to just throw him backwards, or literally drop him on that very same spot.

Peace
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:33 AM   #36
Taliesin
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

In order to answer the question "Is Aikido Violent?" It is essential to be clear what you mean by violent. For myself Violence means "an emotionally driven and undisciplined application of force against a given target." This is my own definition of violence derived from the fact that it is consistent with the 4 emotional elements of violence (arousal, weapon, target, trigger) It is also consistent with the mental element requirement for GBH in the UK . given that definition the answer is definitely no
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:42 AM   #37
David_francis
 
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Aikido itself is not violent it is just an art. Its up to the person using the aikido to decide the level of voilence used. If they want to hurt the attacker or just move out of the way. Well thats what I think.
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:54 AM   #38
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Quote:
For myself Violence means "an emotionally driven and undisciplined application of force against a given target."
- so if someone can remain calm while killing/torturing another, they are not committing violence, just a rather extreme form of argument? This definition would also indicate most of the actions of armed forces during a conflict are actually non-violent as they are anything but undisciplined. As for this definition accurately determining the mental part of a GBH definition, as you're background is law I believe it must fit. However, I was always under the impression that the type and nature of the injury caused determined the type of sentence imposed (leaving out plea bargaining). Is this the case or not.

Quote:
Its up to the person using the aikido to decide the level of violence used.
wouldn't it be nice if we all had this level of skill? You are not the only participant, so how can you assume that you can dictate anything?
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Old 06-15-2004, 07:04 AM   #39
David_francis
 
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

You have the choice to walk away, or in extreme cases defend yourself. I know a few people from my dojo who have stopped a fight just by doing tenkan. But you do have power over your skills, is that not what we have learnt to do? I agree that you arent the only participant, but you are in control of the situation.
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Old 06-15-2004, 10:10 PM   #40
paladin
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Re: Aikido is still violent......?

Not adding fuel to the fire but just go google.com and type the words "non-violent martial art" and see what comes up. Some food for thought.

Do they really still teach this rubbish?? NO!! - she's more likely to break her own fingers than have any effect on her attacker - if you're going to use a weapon, get a proper one and learn how to use it.

Yeah she learned alot of stuff that doesn't seem to work to well. Honestly in my opinion the best thing they taught her was to be as loud as possible and run away as fast as you can and get help.

Last edited by paladin : 06-15-2004 at 10:17 PM.
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