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Old 06-11-2004, 04:43 AM   #1
CarlRylander
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Smile Twosomes and threesomes

Here's a question for you:

I've seen video clips of Black belts taking on two and three opponents and they all seem to run at them one at a time. What if they all charge at once? I heard a Taekwondo black belt say you pick one up and throw them at the others.

Is this true? Do you just have to be lightning fast? Wouldn't it be easier to incapacitate with three punches?
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Old 06-11-2004, 05:27 AM   #2
Nick Simpson
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Well with a punch you would have to knock out your uke or break something to incapacitate them which isnt very nice to your training partners and will really piss them off. Where as if you throw an uke at another one the thrown uke is out of action for a couple of seconds while they take ukemi and get up and the other uke has to dodge (hopefully). You can also get someone in a restraint/choke and use them as a human shield to block another uke's attack. I love this type of randori
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Old 06-11-2004, 06:42 AM   #3
drDalek
 
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

A blackbelt doing randori with 2 or 3 ukes that come at him one at a time? Thats bad, someone in their upper kyu ranks should already have exposure to randori with multiple attackers and have it be as realistic as possible (possible, meaning without anyone getting a free trip to the ER)

Then again, if it was done specifically for the purposes of a video demonstration, maybe its not the best place to look. I have seen some HORRIBLE videos from rather high ranking practitioners but obviously I was not their target audience, I looked at these videos to be entertained by some cool Aikido demos and what I got was some rather weak looking randori that perfectly explain a specific principle but dont do much to entertain.

And yes, 3 punches to sensitive strike zones would have been a better idea but then the practitioner would not realy be demonstrating Aikido technique, unless you can discern good timing, ma-ai and sensitivity from a striking demo.
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Old 06-11-2004, 06:56 AM   #4
philipsmith
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

You make irimi behind the attackers - that way they can't hit you and it breaks up their rythym.

At least that what Chauba Sensei did on a demo (a very long time ago) with a simultaneous attack from myself plus four other ukes!

PS It worked.
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Old 06-11-2004, 06:58 AM   #5
philipsmith
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

OOPS!

That should read CHIBA Sensei.
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Old 06-11-2004, 11:44 AM   #6
Jordan Steele
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

No matter what, just keep moving. If you pause even for a moment, you will get tackled fast. However if three ukes attack all at once, all you need to do is focus on the one that is closest and get behind him. The momentum of the attack usually makes them run into each other....sometimes. Be adaptive and don't get fussy. Randori is all kokyunages, if you try and do something fancy, you get tackcled.
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Old 06-11-2004, 11:49 AM   #7
PeterPhilippson
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

The philosophy behind successful defense against multiple attackers coming at the same time is that, if I move towards one person and away from others, they are now coming one after another!
So it could be that, in the demonstrations, what you are seeing is skill, not poor ukes.
In training, especially at higher level, my association insists that tori does not wait motionless for an attack, but chooses the attacker and moves towards him/her. The aikido is still defensive, but the attack can just be the intention, not developed into action before the defense starts.
Then the aikido can be nage or atemi or avoidance, but is still aikido because of the reliance on movement.

Best wishes,

Peter
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:37 PM   #8
Zoli Elo
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

I have done up to foursomes...

The most significant factor is their cooperation and coordination. If they work well as a team or horribly as one; it can make all the difference.

The only strategy that I have found that transcends whatever actions they may take is to pick them off one at a time, either through direct elimination by myself (preferred) or indirectly by destruction of their coordination abilities (non-preferred).
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Old 06-11-2004, 10:21 PM   #9
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

How disappointing! With a thread title like that, I was hoping for something a little more risque.

Charles Hill
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Old 06-12-2004, 12:18 AM   #10
Infamousapa
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

I Prefer Threesomes To Be Honest..
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Old 06-12-2004, 04:42 AM   #11
Chris Birke
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Well, anyone who makes it to blackbelt in TKD is usually a grandmaster, so maybe they can pull it off against 2 or 3 attacking blackbelts (grandmasters), but I think most folk would find it pretty easy (and thus reliable) to just punch them all unconscious.

This thread is pretty funny =D.
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Old 06-14-2004, 12:50 AM   #12
Largo
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

One thing not to forget is that one punch rarely stops anyone who is serious. You can punch, but you need to follow up. (and that ain't easy to do while being attacked by 2 or 3 other people)
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Old 06-14-2004, 01:54 AM   #13
PeterR
 
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
How disappointing! With a thread title like that, I was hoping for something a little more risque.
Well we could always hijack the thread.

If you can control one uke than you can control them all.

That's probably what the TKD guy was referring to. Use one as a weapon or obstacle.

I find it a little comical putting down TKD blackbelts. Ones I've known have been dedicated martial artists and have shown the balls to actually spar and risk getting hit.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-14-2004, 03:03 AM   #14
Chris Birke
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Nooo! We hijack enough threads...

Having a TKD blackbelt doesn't mean you're ineffective. It simply no longer ensures that you are. I was more poking fun at the claim that a blackbelt means what it does in fiction than at TKD. An Aikido forum is no place to be harassing TKD; also, they have their own forums.

As for sparring and risking getting hit... are you a even martial artist if you don't?

(ducks and covers) ;D
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Old 06-14-2004, 03:40 AM   #15
PeterR
 
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
As for sparring and risking getting hit... are you a even martial artist if you don't?

(ducks and covers) ;D
Whoa swampy ground.

You could be I suppose but you would have no right to criticize those that do no matter how you couch that criticism.

I consider Iaido a martial art.

I do think Aikidoists as a rule need to experience some form of contact. Doesn't even have to be that much. One of the things that becomes pretty obvious (going back to the original question) is that punches in and of themselves are not that incapacitating. They have got to land in the right place and with force. In sparring there tend to be a lot of glancing blows. A good Aikidoist can control the entire body if he can get past the fear of getting hit.

Point taken about TKD.

Last edited by PeterR : 06-14-2004 at 03:46 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-14-2004, 04:44 AM   #16
Keith_k
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Quote:
I do think Aikidoists as a rule need to experience some form of contact. Doesn't even have to be that much. One of the things that becomes pretty obvious (going back to the original question) is that punches in and of themselves are not that incapacitating. They have got to land in the right place and with force. In sparring there tend to be a lot of glancing blows. A good Aikidoist can control the entire body if he can get past the fear of getting hit.
I disagree with much of this statement. If you want your martial arts experience to translate well to a street environment, I think that the experience of having someone come at you and attack you in an non-pre-arranged manner is invaluable. Also, even poorly executed punched to the face are quite disorienting and effective fighting tools if thrown and landed with much force. Jabs are fast, very hard to defend against, and can easily stun (which is usually followed by the power punch which cause lots of damage). A good Aikidoist CAN control the entire body if he can get past the fear of getting hit, but that fear is difficult, if not impossible, to get past if he's never experienced someone trying to hit him.

my 2 cents anyway.
Keith
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Old 06-14-2004, 05:08 AM   #17
PeterR
 
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
A good Aikidoist CAN control the entire body if he can get past the fear of getting hit, but that fear is difficult, if not impossible, to get past if he's never experienced someone trying to hit him.
Sorry what part of the statement do you disagree with. The whole point of my statement (in its entirety) is that a serious Aikidoist needs the experience of getting hit.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-14-2004, 05:14 AM   #18
Keith_k
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

I'm sorry, I must have mis-read something in your post. The first time I read it I thought it said that they DIDN'T need contact. My mistake.
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Old 06-14-2004, 05:40 AM   #19
PeterR
 
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
I'm sorry, I must have mis-read something in your post. The first time I read it I thought it said that they DIDN'T need contact. My mistake.
No problem.

Just to expand a bit in case some feathers get ruffled. The aim of my training is not to become a street fighter but to perfect my Budo which is as much about mental training as physical. It is very easy for me to theorize about what will and will not work, that I have gotten past this or that hurdle but the journey is experience driven. I think that having faced that particular demon (ie getting hit) my waza is better than if I had not. Better waza better Budo.

Anyone is perfectly welcome to choose their own path which could include a lot more contact than I am personally interested in doing or a lot less. Its still a martial art.

Two or three person randori is a lot more fun if dog pile is an option.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-14-2004, 01:52 PM   #20
Chris Birke
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Randori with any number of people is all the same. Except, in reality, you're a lot more likely to lose with every additional person.

To get good at it, you must practice all the basics. There is no multiperson kill technique that I know of. (if someone does, please post it, yellow bamboo?)

Make sure you have a clear escape path, short of that, room to move. Keep your distance from your attackers, both in front of you, both on the same angle. Keep distance, if you cannot, execute technique, but be ready to abandon it for grace of distance rather than complete it for sake of execution. Kill time, hope to get lucky. Throw in the safe hands for good measure.

For attackers, the opposite applies: box them in, strike to create an opening, grab then tackle, stomp until desired complacency is reached. (this probably goes without saying though)

Sadly, I hardly EVER see randori attackers do the above. (Where is this dogpile stuff? Good dojo!) Usually it is more of a pretend randori (where people come at you with one obivious attack, and wait their turn for the next, despite whatever you tell them), which has it's place, but should not be the end all of randori.

//

I think in practical terms Aikido done well is one of the strongest single art in multiperson encounters. No, it won't usually "win", but I think it still has the best odds.

Why? Usage of angular momentums, intent to control rather than destroy with technique (leads to being loose and relaxed in grappling range), minimal use of striking (not committing your momentum in a predictable manner).

Things I think might hold room for improvement (don't hate me too much for my impertinence): training attitude would benifit an additional inventiveness in some dojos, and also more dynamic range in a stance (can't readily break into a sprint when doing Aikido, one shift away; must practice being closer to running and switching between on your toes and bouncy and on your feet and flowing)

//

Aside from this, there is then another level of multiperson randori against skilled opponents. Precluding running (likely the most efficient technique here) you'd have to defend a good shot and well timed strikes (nearly night and day difference from instinctive technique). This would be exceedingly difficult. I'm sure everyone involved would improve very quickly. Law enforcement definately practices this.

//

I saw a video with croatian special forces doing unarmed 2 on 1. One attacker shot for the takedown, the other came from the same side, slightly to the left and controlled the upper body. They attacked at the same time. The defender went down into the guard of the shooter, and the other guy took a straight armbar (simply as practice, at that point he could have done anything). Frankly, it was almost scarey.

Who says groundfighting doesnt work in mutiple person situations? Seemed to work great for the attackers...

Last edited by Chris Birke : 06-14-2004 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 06-14-2004, 02:01 PM   #21
j0nharris
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Re: Twosomes and threesomes

Wow! When Sensei puts us on the mat with 3 or 4 ukes, you'd better believe they're all coming at once as soon as you bow.
With that many attacker's, nage's first blend can set the whole tone for success or failure in keeping the momentum going and staying just out of reach.
Granted, it takes continual practice, and Sensei does start us as early as 5th kyu. At that level, however, it would be one or two attackers, and focusing only on blending movements and staying relaxed, not necessarily any technique at all.

jon harris

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