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Old 02-21-2001, 03:25 PM   #26
Dan Hover
Dojo: Bond Street Dojo/Aikido of Greater Milwaukee
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Quote:
Matt Banks wrote:
Dan Hover you said ''in whatever ridiculous context that we are discussing whether it be live blades on a test''. Testing with a live blade is not ridiculous, in the years Ive praticed im surprised at how so many people in this forum dont train in this way.
please allow me to indulge everyone as to the why of this: "Once for a demonstration with Saito Sensei - I think when I was about Sandan - I asked O sensei if I could use a live blade for our tantodori demonstration, but he rejected the idea. I think he has a clearer understanding of my real ability than I did at the time and knew it wouldnt be a good idea. A while later I did use a live blade at another demonstration that O sensei couldn't attend, and of course I injured myself. I felt so foolish, and it took injuring myself like that to figure out why he had denied my request the first time."

-Hiroshi Isoyama Hachidan

Now, if that rationale is good enough for him, I hope it works for us, who will probably only walk in the shadows of the greats. For obvious safety reasons I feel training with a live blade whether it be Katana or Tanto is unnecessary. As one should always be treating these( bokken and bokutanto) like these are live blades to begin with, if that focus is there all the time, replacing them with live blades can lead to reckless endangerment. I agree that training with them can add a certain edge but why shake the devil's hand and say you are only kidding?

[quote]Matt Banks wrote:

Go to japan and train and you will see live knife training alot.
[quote]

be careful who you say this too, I have been to Japan as my sensei before me, and his sensei before him, and His sensei too, an old man named Ueshiba, perhaps you have heard of him?

[quote]Matt Banks wrote:

Who are you to say that it is ridiulous seeing as it was probably occuring before you were born.
Quote:

A) I am not writing Aikido law as you might think I am B) neither are you, by the way C) to write such blatant accusations as to my background or any other's background on a mere reflection of an opinion indeed reflects back upon you, in a way I am sure you do not want it to D) we walk separate paths to get to the same place which was the original intent of the post, E) who am I not to? I have just as much right to an idea as you or everyone else does in this F) slavery took place before I was born too, does this make it right?


and to quote another
"that's all I have to say about that"
-Forrest Gump

[/b]

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-21-2001, 03:29 PM   #27
Dan Hover
Dojo: Bond Street Dojo/Aikido of Greater Milwaukee
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[quote]Dan Hover wrote:
Quote:
Matt Banks wrote:
Dan Hover you said ''in whatever ridiculous context that we are discussing whether it be live blades on a test''. Testing with a live blade is not ridiculous, in the years Ive praticed im surprised at how so many people in this forum dont train in this way.
please allow me to indulge everyone as to the why of this: "Once for a demonstration with Saito Sensei - I think when I was about Sandan - I asked O sensei if I could use a live blade for our tantodori demonstration, but he rejected the idea. I think he has a clearer understanding of my real ability than I did at the time and knew it wouldnt be a good idea. A while later I did use a live blade at another demonstration that O sensei couldn't attend, and of course I injured myself. I felt so foolish, and it took injuring myself like that to figure out why he had denied my request the first time."

-Hiroshi Isoyama Hachidan

Now, if that rationale is good enough for him, I hope it works for us, who will probably only walk in the shadows of the greats. For obvious safety reasons I feel training with a live blade whether it be Katana or Tanto is unnecessary. As one should always be treating these( bokken and bokutanto) like these are live blades to begin with, if that focus is there all the time, replacing them with live blades can lead to reckless endangerment. I agree that training with them can add a certain edge but why shake the devil's hand and say you are only kidding?

[quote]Matt Banks wrote:

Go to japan and train and you will see live knife training alot.
[quote]

be careful who you say this too, I have been to Japan as my sensei before me, and his sensei before him, and His sensei too, an old man named Ueshiba, perhaps you have heard of him?

[quote]Matt Banks wrote:

Who are you to say that it is ridiulous seeing as it was probably occuring before you were born.
Quote:

A) I am not writing Aikido law as you might think I am B) neither are you, by the way C) to write such blatant accusations as to my background or any other's background on a mere reflection of an opinion indeed reflects back upon you, in a way I am sure you do not want it to D) we walk separate paths to get to the same place which was the original intent of the post, E) who am I not to? I have just as much right to an idea as you or everyone else does in this F) slavery took place before I was born too, does this make it right?


and to quote another
"that's all I have to say about that"
-Forrest Gump

[/b]

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-21-2001, 03:31 PM   #28
Dan Hover
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sorry sent the same thing in twice, oops a daisy

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-21-2001, 03:36 PM   #29
Jim23
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Dan,

How did you manage to do that to the text? Secret Aikido technique?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-22-2001, 01:27 AM   #30
JJF
 
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Hi Dan!

I really liked your last post, and I agree to most of what you say. I myself would never use a live blade while practicing an Aikido technique. I agree as well, that we should try to think of of bokken and bokutanto as real blades while we're practicing to create the proper amount of respect towards the weapon and it's use.

However there is one situation in which I think a live blade could be a positive addition. The style of Aikido I practice involves a set of Aiki-toho (iaido-kata's) which are trained to build the right posture, develop the feeling of cutting and basically get an understanding of the sword. For a long time these kata's are best performed with a bokken, later on perhaps with an Iai-to (dull casted sword as opposed to a sharp forged katana), but finally - when the practicioner gets at bit up into the ranks - say 4 th. or 5. th dan - practicing with a live blade (shinken) could give that extra 'touch'. Actually i beleive it is demanded for gradings from 6 th. dan but I am not quite sure.

Last year I went to a seminar with a japanese sensei (6. dan aikido 4. or 5. dan Iaido) and he claimed that his shinken had been his best teacher ever.

I guess my point is, that while practicing Iaido - which is practiced alone - it can be all right to use a shinke once you have trained for a very long time, since you only put your own health on the line, but while practicing Aikido in a paired situation it is far to dangerous for both uke and tori, as it only takes one brief moment of lost attentione from just one of them to create a situation where both can be severely harmed.

Sorry about the length of this post.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 02-22-2001, 03:34 AM   #31
Matt Banks
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Hi Jim I went on that site listed on the bottom of your post. Its good, did you create it, and if so how.


thanks



Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 02-22-2001, 03:57 AM   #32
Dan Hover
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I don't know how that happened, I looked normal on the box, but when I posted it looked like that, when I tried to edit it, I ended up inadvertantly sending it back in again, so...I can't take any credit for it.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-22-2001, 04:55 AM   #33
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
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Well, using a live tanto for demonstration has no benefits. Using one for grading can. Like I already said, and that story about the sandan guy demostrating reinforces, you shouldn't use a live blade until your sensei thinks you're up to it.

andrew
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Old 02-22-2001, 06:29 AM   #34
Matt Banks
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Andrew I agree with you. Is your surname Medland?
Andrew Medland


serious question



Matt

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:03 AM   #35
Jim23
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Quote:
Matt Banks wrote:
Hi Jim I went on that site listed on the bottom of your post. Its good, did you create it, and if so how.

thanks

Matt Banks
I'm making friends with Matt??

Will wonders never cease?

Actually, I came across that site and image (animated gif - pronounced 'jiff' not 'giff' for those who don't know) while surfing. I take no credit for it, but it's the right style of aikido (site not image).

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 22, 2001 at 07:08am]

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:39 AM   #36
Magma
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Gif. As in "Gif me the pink elephant." Gif gif gif gif gif gif gif. Only because Jim planted his flag... now I have to plant mine. I am the voice of wisdom here... and I command you all to pronounce all of your gif 'g''s as voiced glottal plosives rather than voiced lingua-palate fricatives.

Which is to say....

Gif gif gif gif gif gif gif gif.

Because that is the way O'Sensei pronounced it.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

[Edited by Magma on February 22, 2001 at 07:42am]

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:46 AM   #37
Jim23
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Yes, most people think it's 'Gif' (I knew I'd get someone answering this - sorry Dan), however, read the following article.

----
Gif or Jif? that is the question

Interesting how people in the audience like to make comments, and as a seasoned speaker, I always like to keep the presentation rolling in the face of adversity. On this occasion a person in the audience corrected my pronunciation of "GIF" using the 'J' sound (Jiffy), and corrected me saying, no, it's "GIF" as in 'gift' using the hard 'G'. Another from the audience spoke up saying, "No, I happen to know the developers, and they pronounce it using the "J" sound."

Of course wanting to move along with the presentation and ward off any further interruptions, I smoothed it over saying both are acceptable. The incident was quickly forgotten. Until this past August.

During the Macworld Boston seminar with Robin Williams, I referred to GIF files using my usual J sound, and was corrected by Robin. "No, Fred it's pronounced like 'Gift' with a hard 'G'. Once again, wanting to move along, I didn't argue. However when I returned from Boston I became obsessed with finding out which is actually correct.

Several hours on the web led me to the Cnet site which professes that BOTH pronunciations are correct, echoed by the Compuserve site which also endorsed both.

This didn't suit me. I knew there is an answer. Finally I found a reference to the original development team with names. I keyed the names into all of the internet look-up databases I could find. According to the reference, Steve Wilhite was the original team leader, and there were maybe a half dozen email addresses for Mr. Wilhite. All of which were returned addressee unknown. Several others were reached and all said "JIF" was the word used. One person volunteered that it was JIF because the graphics load in a jiffy. But still no definitive word.

Last month Adam Engst's "NetBits" newsletter posed the same question, "Is it GIF or JIF?" and I wrote to tell my story. They did not print my response, however the editor did take the challenge and succeed where I did not. In a later edition the blurb: "It's 'Jiff' and I Don't Want to Hear Another Word" wherein they relate mail from Charlie Reading who worked with the creator of GIF, Steve Wilhite. Charlie reported that Steve pronounced it "jiff", spinning off of a historically popular peanut butter commercial.

My applause and thanks go out to the editors of NetBits newsletter, for persevering and digging to the bottom of the debate.

Folks, it's "JIF" -- thank you.
---

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:57 AM   #38
Dan Hover
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well thank god we got that cleared up, I sensed that that debate could go on forever, with many a nasty innuendo about someones legitimate computer credentials. "had they ever met Bill Gates?" do they have the MSCII ceritfication? Hell that guy must have a atari 2600 or something to say something that stupid. How ridiculous to have AOL use the remebered password feature as everyone knows about firewalls....

Tongue planted firmly in cheek

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:59 AM   #39
cbrf4zr2
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about g-i-f's

Maybe it's a regional thing, because with all the graphics guys (or is that pronounced "jraphic juys") I've worked with, and programmers, and developers over the past 8 years, I have never heard it pronounced with a j sound. And I'm guessing that number of people would be well over 100, and we aren't just talking porn surfers either.

Of course we could end that confusion by just using jay-peg files...or is that gay-pegs...I don't know.

************************
...then again, that's just me.
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Old 02-22-2001, 08:21 AM   #40
Jim23
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Yep, everyone I know says 'Gif', so I suppose it has evolved to 'Gif'. But it started out as 'Jif'.

Everyone's getting so nice. Pity you guys can't punch - JOKE!! 'Goke?'

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-22-2001, 08:22 AM   #41
Magma
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Quote:
One person volunteered that it was JIF because the graphics load in a jiffy.
That's a great reason. Let's all use that reason. I think you missed my sarcasm of having OSensei say it gif, because just as that doesn't matter, so, too does your quote third hand knowledge of what the creator of the format said matter for nothing. (But OSensei DID say it "gif"... I was there. He threw this Wilwhite guy around the room for a while until that guy, too, decided he would say "gif.) I don't care what the creator of the format called it, the extension has gone into public domain and into common parlance. Do we say "inny", or "i-n-i"? Whatever you want. All you can handle, bro. "Ex-ey" or "e-x-e"? Whatever floats your boat.

Besides, I can just see the first person to ever utter "What's up?" clamoring for attention on a website espousing that the correct pronunciation is not "Wassup?" or the insidious "Wazzzzzup?" ("Protect Your Children from the addictive slang pronunciations!" the site would proclaim.)

Saying that because the first person pronounced it "jiff" (which I am dubious of), and that therefore we should all follow suit is like saying that you can't end an English sentence with a preposition. (That's a hold over from Latin, and not an actual English rule... but we follow it because Latin is older and that's the way it was done first.)

Jim, I also wonder about your motives in your initial flag-planting. Laying down instruction in a non-verbal forum for oral pronunciation and communication, setting yourself up as the authority or the master of this dictum, and then waiting for the response you knew you were going to get when you initially went FISHING. I don't believe that you typed up that article between my post and when it appeared in the forum - not in that short of time. Your response was immediate. I think you already had it typed up and were just waiting to drop it when you got your first argument against you. And you wonder why people have a negative reaction to your posts...

My feeling - understanding is more important than absolute correctness. Which is not to say that we should eschew seeking to speak correctly. Rather, words will have different pronunciations coming from people of different regions, and so there will be many different "corrects". Perhaps both gif and jiff are correct, though I have never heard anyone I know (midwest) call it a "jiff."

Strategery.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-22-2001, 08:44 AM   #42
Jim23
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Quote:
[i]Magma wrote:
Jim, I also wonder about your motives in your initial flag-planting. ... and then waiting for the response you knew you were going to get when you initially went FISHING. I don't believe that you typed up that article between my post and when it appeared in the forum - not in that short of time. Your response was immediate. I think you already had it typed up and were just waiting to drop it when you got your first argument against you. And you wonder why people have a negative reaction to your posts...
[/b]
Of course I had it "saved" on my computer, however, I didn't expect an "argument" over something so trivial. Let's not go overboard here.

Back to work now (me).

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-22-2001, 09:25 AM   #43
Magma
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Quote:
Magma wrote, in the thread, "What is the purpose of this forum?":
It seems you enjoy provoking people for the sake of argument, while trivializing the argument itself so that they seem petty for responding.
Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
I knew I'd get someone answering this - sorry Dan
Jim23
Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Of course I had it "saved" on my computer, however, I didn't expect an "argument" over something so trivial.
Jim23
[Edited by Magma on February 22, 2001 at 09:33am]

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-22-2001, 03:03 PM   #44
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Everyone's getting so nice. Pity you guys can't punch Jim23 [/b]
jim,

what the heck, gosh darn you. I'll bet you didn't know the reason we study Aikido is........

and that Atemi are wonderful strikes and....

just my warped little humorous antidote, please igonre if not into stupid, obvious humor.

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 02-22-2001, 03:28 PM   #45
Kenn
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Location: Simi Valley California
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Quote:
Magma wrote:
Quote:
One person volunteered that it was JIF because the graphics load in a jiffy.
That's a great reason. Let's all use that reason. I think you missed my sarcasm of having OSensei say it gif, because just as that doesn't matter, so, too does your quote third hand knowledge of what the creator of the format said matter for nothing. (But OSensei DID say it "gif"... I was there. He threw this Wilwhite guy around the room for a while until that guy, too, decided he would say "gif.) I don't care what the creator of the format called it, the extension has gone into public domain and into common parlance. Do we say "inny", or "i-n-i"? Whatever you want. All you can handle, bro. "Ex-ey" or "e-x-e"? Whatever floats your boat.

Besides, I can just see the first person to ever utter "What's up?" clamoring for attention on a website espousing that the correct pronunciation is not "Wassup?" or the insidious "Wazzzzzup?" ("Protect Your Children from the addictive slang pronunciations!" the site would proclaim.)

Saying that because the first person pronounced it "jiff" (which I am dubious of), and that therefore we should all follow suit is like saying that you can't end an English sentence with a preposition. (That's a hold over from Latin, and not an actual English rule... but we follow it because Latin is older and that's the way it was done first.)

Jim, I also wonder about your motives in your initial flag-planting. Laying down instruction in a non-verbal forum for oral pronunciation and communication, setting yourself up as the authority or the master of this dictum, and then waiting for the response you knew you were going to get when you initially went FISHING. I don't believe that you typed up that article between my post and when it appeared in the forum - not in that short of time. Your response was immediate. I think you already had it typed up and were just waiting to drop it when you got your first argument against you. And you wonder why people have a negative reaction to your posts...

My feeling - understanding is more important than absolute correctness. Which is not to say that we should eschew seeking to speak correctly. Rather, words will have different pronunciations coming from people of different regions, and so there will be many different "corrects". Perhaps both gif and jiff are correct, though I have never heard anyone I know (midwest) call it a "jiff."

Strategery.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim
Geeze Tim,

You do take yourself a bit seriously don't you? You don't seem to be blending very well with Jim, for like trying force against force....no very Aiki

lol, all I'm saying is lighten up a bit, or not....

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 02-22-2001, 04:05 PM   #46
Jim23
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Majma,

After that post I was actually considering changing my name to Gim23.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-22-2001, 04:25 PM   #47
cbrf4zr2
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Kenn,

If you knew Tim like I know Tim...I don't mean it that way. Sick b*******! I've known him since I was 7, and he got me into Aikido - finally. (see "what brought you to aikido" thread)
It's all in good fun, although he is trying to get a point across.

************************
...then again, that's just me.
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Old 02-22-2001, 04:55 PM   #48
Jim23
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Quote:
cbrf4zr2 wrote:
Kenn,

If you knew Tim like I know Tim...I don't mean it that way. Sick b*******! I've known him since I was 7, and he got me into Aikido - finally. (see "what brought you to aikido" thread)
It's all in good fun, although he is trying to get a point across.
Ed,

Look, whatever their intention, some people here take things, and themselves too seriously, even Tim (hi Tim) and you (hi Ed) and Chris (hi Chris) and Matt (hi Matt).

Relax. Life is too short!!

Are aikidokas really that insecure and touchy? Yes touchy.

For heaven's sake, lighten up and don't take yourselves so seriously. Just take me seriously.

Gim23


Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:13 PM   #49
Dan Hover
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it sometimes truly amazes me how fast this can spiral to debating the sheer minutiae of the truly inconsequential.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-23-2001, 12:32 AM   #50
kgh
Dojo: Genbu Dojo - Ka'onji, Kagawa
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wow, its amazing.

Starting to sound like the Web Development forum on e-budo in here.....

<runs and hides>

Regards,
Kris
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