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Old 06-03-2004, 01:09 AM   #1
bob_stra
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How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Folks, I'm wondering if any of you can help me out with a counter to this. It's a BJJ takedown setup from the knees. While it seem pretty easy to counter in theory, in practice....

He's how the move is done (repost of email I just sent to a friend) : -

*******************

You're both are kneeling (as for start of groundwork)

Take your right hand and insert it into his left lapel, with your pinky finger up. IOW, you grab with your thumb down - kinda like the position your hand ends up in when pouring a pitcher of water. Make sure you grab so that the bulk of your closed fist is pressing into his collar bone, nice and tight.
 
Bend your right knee and place that foot onto the floor.

Sit more onto your left butt cheek, and put your left hand behind you to base out. Your left knee / leg are on the floor. You are slightly sitting on them.

If he comes forward, stiff arm him / pull him into the mat. You can move backwards if you wish to add power to this.

If he goes back, pull him tight / stiff arm him. Upto you. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use his fwd motion to walk around to his back.

If he tries to go around to your left, push him into the mat while circling to your right. Use the pinky side of your hand into his collar bone to achive this.

If he tries to go around to your right, stiff arm him or change grips to the other side. You can also pull him into the mat by making a semi circle action with that hand, kinda like turning a steering wheel from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock.

From these basics, there are many takedowns - snap down, go behind, rolling choke. Take your pick.

**************


Here's the stuff I've tried against it, with no success.

(1) hiji kudaki (straight armlock - putting your armpit on their elbow, sitting your weight on it)

(2) Nikyo

(3) Ikkyo

(4) Gokyo

None of which have worked, due to the counters I mentioned above. (pulling, pushing, circling)

Any tips folks?
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:25 AM   #2
Chris Birke
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Some ideas:

It sound's like theres nothing to stop you from mirroring his grip, so that might nullify it.

How hard is just pulling guard?

Try putting your feet on his hips and pulling back while keeping a grip on his arm. Maybe set something up once you create your space.

If it were stand up I'd use both hands to break that grip, and then push the arm across the body.

I know everything is easier said than done, but there's a counter out there somewhere... I'd hit the mat but i've got finals this week =o. Keep us posted!
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Old 06-03-2004, 02:09 AM   #3
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Any tips folks?
The way we train in my dojo (Aikido), if someone reaches for the collar (for the choke) we counter at that instant. We don't wait around for uke to establish a grip on us.

The moment he reaches for the collar, we would take his center, and lead him into the direction where he is weakest until he meets the mat.

I suppose there are Aikido techniques that could be used to get one out of such a situation as you describe. We just train to avoid getting into a trapped situation like that to begin with. At least that has been the way it has been thus far in my training.
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Old 06-03-2004, 05:19 AM   #4
Chris Birke
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

James, that's a fun thing to note, but the very reason for this training is because it doesn't always play out like that in reality.

It's like giving someone the fighting advice "just don't get hit."
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Old 06-03-2004, 05:49 AM   #5
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

> It sound's like theres nothing to stop you from
> mirroring his grip, so that might nullify it.

Actually yes - good point. That does work. But it's kind of a stalemate. Then you get into pummeling, underhooks etc. So yes, that is viable. But I was kinda hoping there be something sneaky and painful I could do instead of all that hard work;-)

> How hard is just pulling guard?

Another good point ;-) Though when I tried it against the better guys, they simply let go of the grip.

> Try putting your feet on his hips and pulling back > while keeping a grip on his arm. Maybe set
> something up once you create your space.

Tried that one too. I see where your going with it. The armbar is mouth-wateringly close. The orientation of the elbow however spoils it. Yes yes, you can switch to an omoplata, but unless you're fighting 3rd grade children, your opponent will be expecting it.

Even the side laying armbar is out (hiza gatame).

> If it were stand up I'd use both hands to break that > grip, and then push the arm across the body.

That I *will* try tommorow.

> I'd hit the mat but i've got finals this week =o. Keep > us posted

I keep thinking there must be something sneaky and wonderful from Aiki. As soon as I saw the grip I thought to myself "Hey - I shoulda paid more attention during aikido". Dammit.

It's so close to so many things, but as soon as you go for them, his counter is in place.
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Old 06-03-2004, 05:55 AM   #6
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

> The way we train in my dojo (Aikido), if someone > reaches for the collar (for the choke)

It's not a choke. Is a method of controlling the man's head and spine, via his clavicle by using his gi.

> we counter at that instant. We don't wait around
> for uke to establish a grip on us.

Perhaps. Consider it a "What if" scenario then. What if you miss your counter - what would you do then?

You'd be suprised how quickly one can be grabbed like this. It takes very much less than 1/10th of a second. Don't blink ;-)

> The moment he reaches for the collar, we would
> take his center, and lead him into the direction
> where he is weakest until he meets the mat.

I'm curious as to exactly how. He's sitting as a tripod. If you push in the only weak direction, he jumps his legs back and face plants you into the mat.

Any tips?

It's a conundrum, to be sure.

Last edited by bob_stra : 06-03-2004 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 06-03-2004, 06:39 AM   #7
cavedave
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

I've found that the only aikido move that is really effective in BJJ is Sankyo.
I hypothesis this is because Nikyo and most downward motion moves rely on ukes knees. If you are lying down you can't put pressure through their knees as they don't have weight on them.
Not really related but I'd be interested has anyone else had odd experiences using aikido techniques against a Bjj'er on the ground.
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Old 06-03-2004, 07:03 AM   #8
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

What is a "stiff arm"? Does that mean he is pushing you back or holding you inplace and not allowing you to move? Is this a static exercise or is he trying to move you into a pin or a choke?

A stiff armed push is good news for an Aikidoka, movement in general is better news. His counters to your attempts sound like he is moving around on his legs, maybe you can take control of his legs either directly or indirectly? Check the alignment of his spine, is he leaning to one side, or forward or maybe a little back, could you amplify this leaning? If not, is there something you can do to lure him into leaning like that? Check where his head is, could you move his head either directly or indirectly?

If he only has one arm on you, is it realy all that difficult to move? (unless I am misunderstanding and one of you is laying down on the floor or already pinned by the other, if so, could you post some pictures?)
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:55 AM   #9
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

> What is a "stiff arm"?

My bad. Using a judo term to explain a jujitsu problem to aikidoka. Even I'm confused ;-)

Imagine doing a one handed pushup against a wall. See how the bones in your arm align to keep you away from the wall and the ascent? That's a stiff arm.

So - if you come fwd's, he stiff arms you or may bend his elbow and use your forwards action to drag you onto the mat.

> Is this a static exercise or is he trying to move you into a pin or a choke?

It's a set up - kinda of like playing chess. Any move you make is something for him to capitalize on.

(yes I know - make no moves. He can use this grip to capitalize on that too)

> His counters to your attempts sound like he is moving around on his legs

On his knees and feet, yes.

> maybe you can take control of his legs either directly or indirectly?

Yep. That works sometimes, especially if he's slow to move his legs about.

> could you amplify this leaning? If not, is there something you can do to lure him into leaning like that?

Not without severely jeopardizing my own posture.

> If he only has one arm on you, is it really all that difficult to move?

Indeed. If you move into him, you either get nullified or he uses you fwd action with his retreat to bring you face first into the floor. Sideways actions has similar consequences, as per first post.

> (unless I am misunderstanding and one of you is laying down on the floor or already pinned by the

We are both kneeling, though his kneeling posture is modified as per my first post.

Think suwariwaza folks.
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:30 AM   #10
Bronson
 
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Do a big leaping ukemi over his head...probably won't accomplish much but I bet he won't be expecting it

Are strikes allowed? If you can hit him in the belly of the bicep it hurts quite a bit and will cause a charlie horse/cramp type thingy

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:33 AM   #11
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Ukemi....interesting...worth a shot.

No - No strikes allowed in this instance.
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Old 06-03-2004, 09:36 AM   #12
Bronson
 
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Ukemi....interesting...worth a shot.
Ummm, that was a joke. But you're a growed up and if you want to do it......

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:30 AM   #13
willy_lee
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
If he goes back, pull him tight / stiff arm him. Upto you. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use his fwd motion to walk around to his back.
Not quite clear on this part; if you pull back, he's pulling you tight? How does this get your forehead on the mat?
Quote:
(1) hiji kudaki (straight armlock - putting your armpit on their elbow, sitting your weight on it)
Are you doing this wakigatame/rokkyo style? Never heard of hiji kudaki before.

One thing I'll throw out, FWIW, sounds like you need to attack that elbow, get a bend in it, but 'cause he's stiff-arming, it's hard to do? Have you tried a wrestling-style 2-on-1 on his stiff arm? Try to drag it down without losing your posture too much? Maybe then you'll have some more options, not sure though. Take this with the bucket of salt it deserves ....

Hmm, leaping ukemi.... flying armbar?

=wl

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Old 06-03-2004, 10:47 AM   #14
jxa127
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Bob,

I'll have to try this tonight. It sounds like an interesting exercise. I keep thinking that ikkyo would work, but I'd be tempted to go with gokyo. Lay my left arm over his elbow and rotate my hips to pull his arm through. I'd trap his right hand with my right before moving.

My disadvantage is that nobody in my dojo (including me) studies BJJ. So anything we do will be from an aikido perspective.

What about the exercise makes is hard for the grabee to off-balance the graber?

Regards,

----
-Drew Ames
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:47 AM   #15
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
No- No strikes allowed in this instance
Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
James, that's a fun thing to note, but the very reason for this training is because it doesn't always play out like that in reality.

It's like giving someone the fighting advice "just don't get hit."
Hey Chris. Considering Bob's own words above, the training doesn't play out in reality either way. In a real fight situation, even if the attacker has successfully grabbed the defender, the defender's hands are free to attack with atemi, but yet in the exercise described by Bob, "no strikes are allowed". I would say it doesn't always play out like that in reality either. That is like the attacker telling the defender, "I am going to grab you, but I don't want you to smash me in the face and break my jaw or jab my eyes out".

In Aikido, we are allowed to use atemi, so it sounds like Aikido may be even more realistic than BJJ or whatever kind of fighting you guys are describing (??). Don't get me wrong, I think it is good thing to know BJJ and groundfighting, but still, in the particular exercise Bob describes, their are obviously rules in place that would not apply in a real street situation.

Last edited by James Giles : 06-03-2004 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:50 AM   #16
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

> Not quite clear on this part; if you pull back, he's
> pulling you tight? How does this get your forehead > on the mat?

If you pull back, he angles off to the side and pulls you towards him. The combined action results in you being pulled downwards.

Remember, he has a good deal of control over you via his grip.

> Are you doing this wakigatame/rokkyo style?

Yes.

> Never heard of hiji kudaki before.

Yoseikan term :-)

> One thing I'll throw out, FWIW, sounds like you
> need to attack that elbow, get a bend in it

That'd be *exactly* the perfect thing to do, except for the stiff arming (as you mention).

> Have you tried a wrestling-style 2-on-1 on his stiff > arm?

Hmm. No I haven't. I figured his grip was burried in there, so there was no point in grabbing that arm to control it. Of course, as a grab release....

> Take this with the bucket of salt it deserves ....

It's all good ;-) You're all giving me some interesting ideas to try tommorow!

> Hmm, leaping ukemi.... flying armbar?

:-)

Arm in wrong position to finish. Trust me - that was the *1st* thing I tried ;-)
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:05 AM   #17
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Drew Ames wrote -

> I'll have to try this tonight. It sounds like an
> interesting exercise.

Excellent! Two heads better than one ;-)

> I keep thinking that ikkyo would work, but I'd be
> tempted to go with gokyo.

... and it looks like it *should* work, but that damned grip !!!

> Lay my left arm over his elbow and rotate my hips > to pull his arm through.

He bends his arm
He bear hugs you back

Then its fun for all the family ;-) He can choke you, he can drag you backwards and choke you...all sorts of nasties.

(Tried that one already. ;-)


> I'd trap his right hand with my right before moving.

Ahh. My bad.

His grip is burried into your clavicle, closed fist almost. You can't really access his hand at all, less you start attacking his fingers.

(which adds another thing to my list to try)

> (including me) studies BJJ. So anything we do will > be from an aikido perspective.

Great! Be glad to see the results.

In fairness, be sure to allow the "grabber" to use the decidedly non-aiki methods of resistance / countering. And a little bit of strength too :-)


> What about the exercise makes is hard for the ?
> grabee to off-balance the graber?

(1) Graber has a stable tripod base. The one weakpoint in his base is actually a fools paradise. Attack that way and he will use your forward action against you. Due to the orientation of his legs & arm, he can move backwards a lot faster than you can move forwards. He simply places his weight on his outstretched arm and jumps his legs backwards.

OTOH, you yourself are on your knees, possibly on the balls of your feet.

I agree - this is a highly artificial scenario.

*shrugs*

You can sometimes get away with crazy things in grappling.

(2) The action of the grabbing hand. It's constantly pulling or pushing. Due to the grip (and the magnification by the gi lapel), most of the force travels up into the neck. IOW - control the neck, control his movement.

How do I describe the action....kind of like turning a steering wheel? The lapel, plus the close proximity to you clavicle & neck afford the graber a lot of control.

So, the action of his arms plus the grip result in force which can change on a dime from being backwards / forwards to being side/ side, all without adjusting his grip.

I know there must be an obvious counter to this.

Last edited by bob_stra : 06-03-2004 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:05 AM   #18
willy_lee
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Talking Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
> Hmm, leaping ukemi.... flying armbar?

:-)

Arm in wrong position to finish. Trust me - that was the *1st* thing I tried ;-)
Hehe -- great minds, etc.
=wl

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Old 06-03-2004, 11:12 AM   #19
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

James Giles wrote:

> Hey Chris. Considering Bob's own words above, > the training doesn't play out in reality either way.

Sure. It's a simulation, a training scenario. But it has applicabiliy to real life.

> In a real fight situation, even if the attacker has
> successfully grabbed the defender, the defender's > hands are free to attack with atemi, but yet in the > exercise described by Bob, "no strikes are

I suspect if you were to strike him, he would move back in that direction I explain above, pull you down onto the mat.

Then circle around you and start elbowing the back of your neck ;-)

While strikes aren't weren't part of this scenario, strikes are allowed in grappling matches, esp vale tudo. We do it all the time - anything from 30% to 100% full force.

In any case - let's not turn this into a "sport vs street" argument. That was never my intention.

I think there's some technical merit to this question.
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:14 AM   #20
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

[quote=Bob Strahinjevich]Perhaps. Consider it a "What if" scenario then. What if you miss your counter - what would you do then?

You'd be suprised how quickly one can be grabbed like this. It takes very much less than 1/10th of a second. Don't blink ;-)
[\QUOTE]

Yes, I can see your point. It is good to practice for worst case scenarios.

Quote:
> The moment he reaches for the collar, we would
> take his center, and lead him into the direction
> where he is weakest until he meets the mat.

I'm curious as to exactly how. He's sitting as a tripod. If you push in the only weak direction, he jumps his legs back and face plants you into the mat.
If I understand correctly the positioning of the attacker, when he reaches out to grab, he is weakest in the direction he is reaching into. Suppose he attacks nage by reaching in with his right hand toward the collar of the nage's gi. Nage could pivot on his right knee bringing his left knee to the rear (opening up to the left). At the same time nage could apply atemi to uke's face with his right fist, while grabbing uke's attacking hand with his left and using it to pull uke toward his (nage's) rear (in the direction where uke is weakest).

From there, any number of techniques could be used. One example would be to, after applying atemi with the right fist, exchange hands and appy ikkyo, nikkyo etc. to uke's attacking (right) arm.

But as you said earlier, such a defensive technique as described above does not really apply to the worst-case scenario exercises you guys are performing. Have you tried pivoting toward your rear (as I described above) and simultaneously applying downward pressure on uke's elbow (even after he has grabbed you)? I don't know, I am not a BJJ expert (or Aikido for that matter!), but these are things I would try, considering my present skill level in Aikido.

Last edited by James Giles : 06-03-2004 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:34 AM   #21
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

[quote=Bob Strahinjevich]I suspect if you were to strike him, he would move back in that direction I explain above, pull you down onto the mat.

Then circle around you and start elbowing the back of your neck ;-) [\QUOTE]

Supposing of course that he is still conscious!
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:40 AM   #22
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
performing. Have you tried pivoting toward your rear (as I described above) and simultaneously applying downward pressure on uke's elbow (even after he has grabbed you)? I don't know, I am not a BJJ expert (or Aikido for that matter!), but these are things I would try, considering my present skill level in Aikido.
Hmmm. Good idea! Not sure if it'd get his grip off me, but at least he be moving on my terms.
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:43 AM   #23
Ray Kissane
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Ok how about this, when he pushes you grip his right wrist with your right hand. Place your left hand on his right elbow. Push up and over on the elbow causing the elbow to roll over so that it is upwards at the same time pivot to the right on your left knee. This should cause him to loose their balance and allow you to put an arm bar on them as you pivot so that you take them to the mat. Once he is on the mat you probably will not be able to keep them there if they are good BJJ.

If they pull and their elbow drops push the elbow down and across the body causing their balance to be broken. From this postion you can go into several different take downs.

I use these type of movements when working off of walls where uke has you pinned with a similar type of grip.

Maybe this will help.

Ray Kissane

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Old 06-03-2004, 11:45 AM   #24
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Hmmm. Good idea! Not sure if it'd get his grip off me, but at least he be moving on my terms.
Once you get him off balance, and moving, I believe a nikkyo could be applied to his grip to get it off of you.
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:51 AM   #25
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Doh! There's an error in my initial post! Where it says this

"If he goes back, pull him tight / stiff arm him. Upto you. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use his fwd motion to walk around to his back."

It should say

"If he goes back, angle off and pull him tight. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use this motion to walk around to his back."

Thus my response in post #16

My bad. Hope it makes more sense!
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