Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-01-2004, 03:32 AM   #1
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
When is it ok to hurt?

As those who has read my introduction will know, I practice Hapkido; a Korean art developed from a combination of Aikijujutsu and a kicking art called Tae Kyon (predecessor to Tae Kwan Do).
Having joined this forum to learn more about Aikido, there's no better time than now to start asking questions. As I understand it, Aikido frowns heavily on actually hurting an attacker. I would like to know: are there situations where it is possible to hurt, maim, or kill an adversary and still maintain the spirit of the art? If so, what situations?

Keith
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 04:28 AM   #2
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 515
United Nations
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Most would agree that one of the distinctive features of Aikido is its emphasis on not damaging attackers. For this raeson it has been called by some the Art of Peace.

A distinction could be drawn, between damage and pain. A wrist lock may hurt (cause pain) but not injure (cause long term damage). Most Aikidoka are sick and like pain!

Some Aikidoka would argue that it is never morally acceptable to injure an attacker, others that this is an ideal (realistic or otherwise) and a few don't care! Hippies v psychos debate ensues...There's a legal arguement here as well as a moral one I guess.

I look at it in terms of minimising overall violence.

Mark
x
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 05:47 AM   #3
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Some Daito Ryu shihan said that if you do a technique and uke smiles, it's Aikido; if you do the same technique and uke screams, it's Daito Ryu.

Most Aikido techniques can be traced to Daito Ryu which aimed at killing. It should be easy for any of us to think of how to modify a technique so that we kill uke. However, killing uke leaves you with no one to practice which kinda sucks. </joke:bad_taste>

Oh yes, the legality of it. In the UK, if you harm someone then you can (and will be) done for GBH. Whether the guy started it or not is irrelevant. You have to use reasonable force, whatever that means. Oh yes, there's no legal definition of "reasonable force", it's all up to whatever judge you'll be sitting in front of. Be warned. </not_a_joke>

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 07:17 AM   #4
drDalek
 
drDalek's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 155
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Dying or getting injured for some mythical "greater good" was never the intention of Aikido. Aikido is there so that you yourself wont get hurt and your attacker may or may not get hurt depending on when he decides to give up.

Weak example (but please bear with me):

If you get attacked with a baseball bat and you continously manage to disarm your opponent while your opponent keeps picking the bat up to come at you again, break his bat-wielding arm, if he picks up the bat with the other arm, break it too. If he decides to start kicking you now, throw him on one of his broken arms, if he keeps getting up to kick you, break his leg... etc.

If your opponent gives up after you disarm him once, he is smart and the conflict has been settled, and unlike a striking art, you would not have had to kick his arm or punch him in the nose to achieve your initial disarm.

With Aikido you very much get the ability to selectively escalate your responses to the situation. With most other arts your initial response is fast and deadly, and every response after that too. Ofcourse as an Aikidoka you have the choice to make your first response the drop-him-on-his-neck-and-kill-him response and a striker has the option to just evade and block or punch in such a way to not do too much damage but then the effectivity of his technique is debateable.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 07:41 AM   #5
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 82
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Given the number of pain compliance techniques in Aikido it would be absurd to say we do not hurt. What we are looking to achieve is defense with minimum amount of pain/harm/ injury.

As far a Yann's opinion about UK Law it is very broadly correct, but unfortunately misleading. If you cause someone else harm you can be prosecuted for a form of GBH if the harm is serious enough (there are two types of GBH), but whether the other guy started it is totally relevant as that is the difference between assault and self defence. Yes there is the 'Reasonable force' defence and it is not defined any more clearly than "The amount of force a 'reasonable' man would use. Given the vast numbers of possibilities this is a question of fact and the specific circumstances every time. After all the amount of force that is reasonable to use would be vastly different if you were responding to a 90 year old lady poking you in he chest, than when responding to a 7 foot maniac trying to dismember you with a machete.

You must also remember that in UK Law you are not obliged to 'judge matters to a nicety' in self defence matters.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 08:23 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Quote:
Some Daito Ryu shihan said that if you do a technique and uke smiles, it's Aikido; if you do the same technique and uke screams, it's Daito Ryu.
Arrggggg....he's not a 'Daito ryu Shihan' ...at least not one that's recognized by any legit Daito ryu organization...his stuff on the mat may or may not be fantastic, who knows. And I'm not just talking politics here.

All of the legit Daito ryu folks I know laugh at that statement of his.

Quote:
Most Aikido techniques can be traced to Daito Ryu which aimed at killing. It should be easy for any of us to think of how to modify a technique so that we kill uke. However, killing uke leaves you with no one to practice which kinda sucks. </joke:bad_taste>
Your statement gives the impression that Daito ryu practitioners regularly kill/killed their uke. What experience with Daito ryu have you had that makes you think that? I've been to multiple seminars in Daito ryu (Mainline and otherwise) and frankly, the injury rate is generally lower than in many aikido seminars I've been to. In fact, when I hosed my knee, it was during aikido training, not Daito ryu.

I realize you were joking to some extent, but it's way too easy to find bad info on Daito ryu...even jokes can perpetuate the wrong myth.

Ron (don't believe everything you read on the web, including this post. Check it out for yourself.)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 06-01-2004 at 08:29 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 09:34 AM   #7
Marshall Sandoz
Location: Louisiana
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

I'm reminded of an episode of the old "Kung Fu" tv show which, paraphrased, goes something like this:

It's better to run away
but if you can't run away and have to fight
It's better to hurt than to maim
it's better to maim than to kill
it's better to kill than be killed.

or something like that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 09:45 AM   #8
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,724
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
I would like to know: are there situations where it is possible to hurt, maim, or kill an adversary and still maintain the spirit of the art? If so, what situations?
IMHO, the key word in your questions is "possible". It is always "possible to "hurt, main, or kill" using almost any Aikido technique. After all, Aikido still is a martial art.

IMHO, if you only use as much force as necesssary but as little force as possible to obtain the objective of protection, then it would "still maintain the spirit of the art".

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 11:33 AM   #9
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

My tai chi instructor used to say something similar to the Kung-Fu quote.

"If someone is trying to hurt you, you will have to stop them. If they are trying to maim you, you will have to hurt them. If they are trying to kill you, you will have to maim them."

By his way of thinking it was never necessary to kill someone in self-defence. He felt that even if the person was fully intent on taking his life if he were to break both their knees they would stop

STORY START--->

We had some nidan tests a few years ago. One of the testees is a cop. The visiting sensei asked him how he would apply the Spirit of Loving Protection for All Things if he were being attacked by four drug-crazed big guys trying to take him out. Testee thought for just a few seconds and said "in the spirit of loving protection, I'd protect myself".

Which I thought was a great answer.

My younger sister (who does no martial arts) was on a date with a guy who started getting a little handsy. She told him to stop and he didn't. She then pushed him away and tried to leave. He grabbed her and pulled her back...she socked him in the nose and fumbled to get the car door open. When she got it open she fell out on the ground on her back with her legs still in the car. He grabbed one of her feet to catch her and she kicked him square in the teeth with other foot. She then ran away leaving him bleeding and toothless.

In my opinion she used great aikido principles. She retaliated with the appropriate amount of force and when he upped his aggresiveness she kept retaliating with appropriate force until she found the lowest level that would end the situation....a kick in the teeth.

<---STORY END

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 12:59 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Tough lady...kudos to her.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 01:21 PM   #11
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Tough lady...kudos to her.
Per the link you posted to Ellis Amdur's ariticle I like to think all the fighting we did as kids helped prepare her for stuff like that

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 01:35 PM   #12
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

I think my brother still has a knot on his head he thanks me for...I'm not sure why though!
RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 01:53 PM   #13
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Mr. Ledyard recently made a great post on this subject, unfortunately it didn't appear to make it as a standalone article.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 02:00 PM   #14
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
As I understand it, Aikido frowns heavily on actually hurting an attacker.
Nonsense. That statement is far too broad.

The ethic behind aikido is not legalistic--I have a right to protect myself; it's karmic--I protect my attacker's karma by preventing him from hurting me. If I have to kill him, this spares his karma and earns me merit for the implied sacrifice of my own karma.

Obviously, this interepretation is subject to abuse, but that's a problem with interpretation in general, not just this one.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 03:25 PM   #15
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

There is a HUGE difference between hurting and injuring. We hurt each other almost every single class, but we try very hard to not injure one another. Would I injure someone in a self-defense situation? If I felt sufficiently frightened--yes. The "defense" situations I'm more likely to encounter though involve my family or friends. People I don't want to injure but I have no qualms about causing a little (or a lot of) pain.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2004, 03:49 PM   #16
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

I always loved the phrase "injure to degree".

It's so ambiguous.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 01:35 AM   #17
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Thank you to everyone who replied.

Imagine an Aikidoka being attacked by a man using a bat. In the first example the Aikidoka evades and disarms the man four times before deciding that the man will not learn; and breaks his arm. In the second example, the Aikidoka see the bat swing, thinks "AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! A bat!" and IMEDIATELY breaks the man's arm.

Is the second course of action "wrong?" Is the first course of action more "right" than the second? If I came into class one day and told my Hapkido instructor that I was attacked by someone with a bat and that I disarmed him four times before I broke him, my instructor would say to me: "You idiot! He might have hit you the second or third time! What happens if you miss a block or fumble a technique? You could have been killed! Why the heck didn't you break him the first time?" What would be the Aikido take on this statement?

From the replies to my post, it seems that the traditions of Aikido allow that injury may be inflicted under certain circumstances. If this is the case, why doesn't Aikido contain striking (with intent to damage) technique? Sometimes the best way to defend from a much larger person is a strike to a vital part of the body, such as the throat or eyes.

Keith
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 02:43 AM   #18
Infamousapa
Dojo: Aikido Institute of America
Location: HEAVENS
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 49
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

I would say when against the enemy we should be right on the situation.And we try to wake up the enemy or aggressor by using their energy against them,However wicked people exists in this world therefore some wont let out till ones hurt.Just like the great teacher quotes "when facing the adversary in a duel,even when we wish to withdraw the enemy will not allow it:WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY IS GREATER THE ENERGY AGAINST US IS GREATER THE HURT AGAINST THEM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 02:43 AM   #19
drDalek
 
drDalek's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 155
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
Thank you to everyone who replied.

Imagine an Aikidoka being attacked by a man using a bat. In the first example the Aikidoka evades and disarms the man four times before deciding that the man will not learn; and breaks his arm. In the second example, the Aikidoka see the bat swing, thinks "AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! A bat!" and IMEDIATELY breaks the man's arm.

Is the second course of action "wrong?" Is the first course of action more "right" than the second? If I came into class one day and told my Hapkido instructor that I was attacked by someone with a bat and that I disarmed him four times before I broke him, my instructor would say to me: "You idiot! He might have hit you the second or third time! What happens if you miss a block or fumble a technique? You could have been killed! Why the heck didn't you break him the first time?" What would be the Aikido take on this statement?
What if it was a friend of yours who was messing with you and swung a bat at you to "test" your martial art, would the second response be appropriate? What if you disarm him and he deems this an attack on his ego and retaliated with actual intent to harm you, would you just disarm him again with a smile? The "official" Aikido stance on this (as if such a thing exists) would be to do the right thing according to the situation, whatever that situation might be.

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
From the replies to my post, it seems that the traditions of Aikido allow that injury may be inflicted under certain circumstances. If this is the case, why doesn't Aikido contain striking (with intent to damage) technique? Sometimes the best way to defend from a much larger person is a strike to a vital part of the body, such as the throat or eyes.
Aikido has a pretty big striking aspect, we call it Atemi and its used to either inflict damage directly to certain sensitive strike zones or to unbalance an attacker or set them up for a more devastating technique. Atemi is very broadly defined, some Aikido practicioners integrate entire striking martial art systems as their atemi, just like you as a Hapkido practicioner integrate some fore-runner of tae-kwon-do as your atemi. Some Aikido practicioners (like me) take the view that its relatively simple to bring your strikes (which can be delived with any part of the body btw) up to a level where they can do some damage and thus train with punching bags and focus mits as opposed to doing a seperate striking art and trying to integrate it.

The problem is that Aikido has this stigma attached to it, probably due to it being marketed as a peace-loving pacifists' art which causes many instructors to completely ignore atemi or practice it in a half-hearted and ineffective way. But as I said, I like to put in some time on a punching bag now and then and I select partners who are up for a few friendly love-taps thrown in here and there to practice with.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 04:28 AM   #20
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Wynand: You have to be more specific. Do I know that my friend is going to test my martial arts skill by swinging a lethal at me, or is it a surprise? If my friend surprises me by trying to kill me, my first reaction would be to evade and ask, "What the fudge do you think you're doing?!" If my friend makes another attempt at a home run using my skull as a ball, I will assume murderous intent and though I wouldn't specifically try to break his arm, I wouldn't try not to. If I managed to take him down and disarm him without major damage, I would insure he didn't try it again by simply keeping the bat. You can also be sure that I would no longer count this person among my friends. If my friend asks to swing a bat at me to test my martial arts skill, I would refuse.

But let me make my previously posted hypothetical situation more accurate. Assume that the Aikidoka and the man swinging the bat have no relation. The bat is of sufficient size and weight to cause lethal damage (this being the whole idea of using a bat in the example). The man is of average size and build, with no physical disabilities, and is not sick or feeble. The Aikidoka has no physical disabilities and is not sick or feeble. The man's motivation for attacking is anger.

Also: In the language section of this website, Atemi is defined: "(lit. Striking the Body) Strike directed at the attacker for purposes of unbalancing or distraction. Atemi is often vital for bypassing or ‘short-circuiting' an attacker's natural responses to aikido techniques. The first thing most people will do when they feel their body being manipulated in an unfamiliar way is to retract their limbs and drop their center of mass down and away from the person performing the technique. By judicious application of atemi, it is possible to create a ‘window of opportunity' in the attacker's natural defenses, facilitating the application of an aikido technique." This implies that Atemi in Aikido is performed for distraction only, not to do damage. Perhaps there are different interpretations among different dojos? As for the stigma of peace, love and happiness; I have heard such, but decided to ask question of people who practice Aikido (i.e. this web site) to find out the real story

Keith
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 05:44 AM   #21
Yann Golanski
 
Yann Golanski's Avatar
Dojo: York Shodokan Aikido
Location: York, United Kingdom.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 406
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: When is it OK to hurt?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Your statement gives the impression that Daito ryu practitioners regularly kill/killed their uke.
It was a joke. Nothing more.... I was taking the piss and was not at all serious. Hence the </joke> label.

I'm sorry if I have offended you, it was not my aim at all.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I realize you were joking to some extent, but it's way too easy to find bad info on Daito ryu...even jokes can perpetuate the wrong myth.
To all extent, the post was written in sarcastic mode from start to end. I should have made that clearer. Sorry.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 06:25 AM   #22
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Yann, don't apologise to Ron, he's just feeling mean 'cos he can't bash people on e-budo at the moment.

Keith, asking this website for a definitive answer is problematical. A lot of people don't believe aikido and violence are linked because there is "love in their heart" when practicing aikido (can't find the thread/poll, but remember it well). With that viewpoint, as long as my intentions are good, I'm not really responsible for hurting anyone as it was obviously just fate that they became hurt rather than merely removed from the path of violence (see Don's post). My lawyer says I haven't got a chance but...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 07:59 AM   #23
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Quote:
Yann, don't apologise to Ron, he's just feeling mean 'cos he can't bash people on e-budo at the moment.
Well, while I do feel a certain amount of withdrawal, I'd hardly say that I ever 'bash' people on e-budo or anywhere else.

I do have a problem with the amount of mis-information about Daito ryu that's out there, though...and while I won't 'bash' anyone over it, I will ask questions where I think it appropriate. I thought Yann answered the questions quite well.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 02:21 PM   #24
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,148
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
Thank you to everyone who replied.
Imagine an Aikidoka being attacked by a man using a bat.
Keith
Keith,
IF!!!!(cos not so very many aikidoka are able to defend themselves from a bat) aikidoka disarm first time an attacker, he will never give a bat back to him we aikidoka may look stupid, but we are not LOL. If attacker decide second attack, he will have to attack empty hand against aikidoka armed with a bat. Now, this is another story, isn't it?

Second thing is, after disarming first time, we immediatly control attacker with a pin or choke.In the situation, where call for police isn't a option, choke is preferred, to make agressor unconscious. So aikidoka have time to quietly unifie himself with Univers.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004, 02:31 PM   #25
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: When is it ok to hurt?

But what if a dozen of Nazi soldiers with chainguns and grenade launchers landed on your lawn ? Would you be able to defend yourself without hurting them ?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
how many times have you gotten hurt? Skribbles General 54 03-15-2006 02:47 PM
Boken Attacks hurt GC_Chew General 37 06-04-2004 12:51 PM
My legs hurt when i sit... John McDonald General 11 09-16-2003 08:51 PM
Getting Hurt (or killed) ThOrSHAmmEr3 General 26 02-20-2003 05:47 PM
Re Hurt thumbs while training!! Chocolateuke Training 8 03-11-2001 01:09 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:18 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate