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Old 06-02-2004, 12:50 PM   #26
paw
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
He is like... all submission... you could learn a zillion submissions from him. Lockflows and things. Miracle escape-into-submission techniques from bottom and so forth and so on.
I have no idea how you can make this statement. Having trained with him, that is not the case. Having rolled with him, he is very, very skilled.

Quote:
AND... he hasn't done so great in the competitions to put up to his methods.
There is no way to say this gently. You are wrong. His record is 9-4-1(as per sherdog). His loss to Warring in EF1 was a fluke, IMO. That leaves Paul Jones, Matt Hume and Carlos Newton. ....Those men are not tomato cans. In particular his fight with Hume was a war that was stopped on a cut, Erik was giving as good as he got.


Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-02-2004, 09:16 PM   #27
Mel Barker
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
How is one able to deal with attackers from one's rear if they are pinned on the ground?
Has anyone suggested being pinned as a technique?

I'm still interested in an answer to my question. If anyone has had experience if sprawling in a multiple attack situation, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks,

Mel Barker
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:28 AM   #28
James Giles
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Though I'd like to point out that in present day most aikidoka don't have a delivery system. They have a bunch of techniques attatched practiced in dead repetiton, attached to footwork that doesn't work in a fight of today against attacks of today.

The song remains the same.....
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Old 06-03-2004, 03:20 AM   #29
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Of course he is very skilled. He is one of the top-instructors. But IMnotsoHO he lacks the something that would make the best out of him. And I think that's the methods.
Men who he lost to are no tomato cans but not the absolute top as well. But lets leave it there. I have much respect for Paulson, I really do and from his instructionals you can really get some ideas to add to your "game" but I think you can't build your game on his ideas.

And okay, sorry... I exaggerated a bit. This record is not bad at all (mine is much more worse )

About sprawling against multiple attackers: first of all when one gets in a situation that he has one guy in his front and other on his back it's already really bad.

BUT: after a good sprawl there are two really quick possibilities: 1) stand up 2) go-behind

And James - it sure does.

Feels good being back on this forum after 2 years or so singing songs other ppl can sing about... Have gotten much smarter? dumber? more experienced! during this time.
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Old 06-03-2004, 05:18 AM   #30
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

[quote=Mel Barker]Has anyone suggested being pinned as a technique?

[quote]

The point being, that's where you're likely to end up if you don't defend the double leg well. And the best way to defend the double leg has been shown to be the sprawl.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-03-2004, 07:06 AM   #31
Mel Barker
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-take down?

[
Quote:
The point being...
I believe I understand the point, I still want to know how to defend against multiple attackers using the technique. Several people have stated that it is the best thing to use against a double leg take down. I have yet to see it in any Aikido syllabus, so if it is the best thing to use, I want to make sure it would be viable against multiple attackers since most of the Aikido practitioners I know train against multiple attackers.

Thanks,

Mel Barker
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Old 06-03-2004, 07:17 AM   #32
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quick sprawl and stand up or go behind should put you again in even position agaisnt multiple attackers. When 2 ppl are in front of you then sprawling block the other attacker. Same goes for sprawl and gobehind when other attacker is coming from behind.
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:07 AM   #33
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-take down?

Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
Several people have stated that it is the best thing to use against a double leg take down. I have yet to see it in any Aikido syllabus, so if it is the best thing to use, I want to make sure it would be viable against multiple attackers since most of the Aikido practitioners I know train against multiple attackers.
Mel, you're starting to sound like a troll.

1. Scanning through this thread I don't see anyone that has said a sprawl is "the best thing". They have said that a sprawl is effective. I believe I have made the strongest claims when I wrote A sprawl is not the "end all, be all" martial technique. Like any technique it may not fit all situations. Be that as it may, it is easy to learn, effective, and is a high percentage move (effective in a wide variety of situations against a wide range of skilled attackers) that has proven itself over and over again.

2. Jorx has answered your question twice.

3. If you're going to omit a technique because you think it may not be the most appropriate thing to do against multiple attackers, you better get rid of swari-waza post haste.

4. My honest advice. Go into a good wrestling club. College level would be best. Wear a shirt that says, "I support Title IX" on the front and "We need to cut more wrestling programs to have women's ping pong" on the back. Then ask two or three for a friendly match. That will give you an idea as to how good your defence is against multiple attackers and/or wrestling shots.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:50 AM   #34
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I gave a long, detailed version of this yesterday, then the connection crapped out and I lost the message, so here's the briefer version:

Two of the sprawls I drill, in my opinion, can be approached from an 'aiki' mindset, in terms of irimi and tenkan. The 'irimi sprawl', which I show as the standard, is your basic sprawl -- hips, legs and feet back, hands providing points of contact to the arms/shoulders and you hit/atemi the shooter with your chest as you drop your weight straight down on the shooter's neck/back of the head. The head is up and the back a bit arched to 1) Maintain your body's structure 2) Check your area as the engagement continues. Your feet should be down with contact being on the top/laces area. If you're on your toes the shooter can drive through and stack your legs.

If this sprawl halts/stops the shooter's momentum (the wieght dropped onto the shooter's head/neck and driven to the ground can end an encounter), you can fix the shooter in place long enough to recover and go (to either a more standard aikido throw, headlock, knees & elbows, etc.) from there. The body dynamics can vary, but it is essentially a straight entry (irimi).

If the shooter isn't stopped and drives through or starts to lift, then the 'tenkan sprawl' is essantially maintaining the points of contact through the hands and chest to spin to the side (whichever is open -- wrestlers should recognize this as a spin drill) and either spin all the way to the back for a choke, push the shooter forward and stand back up, or go for a restraint, etc. This is useful for gaining kuzushi if/when you failed to do so on the initial sprawl or have lost it -- the idea being to move around to the side/behind (tenkan) so that you aren't fighting directly against the shooter's strength.

Either way, the sprawl is a good transition and recovery technique for aikidoka to adapt into their repetoire (although to practice, just like with strike defenses, you need to have someone that can give you a good, legitimate leg-shoot). The transition of weight straight downward has some relation to the kokyu projections where nage drops to one knee. The sprawl is just another way (and a very effective one against a leg-shoot) to receive forward momentum.

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Old 06-03-2004, 08:37 PM   #35
Mel Barker
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Quick sprawl and stand up or go behind should put you again in even position agaisnt multiple attackers. When 2 ppl are in front of you then sprawling block the other attacker. Same goes for sprawl and gobehind when other attacker is coming from behind.
Thanks for responding to my question.

Mel Barker
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:49 PM   #36
Mel Barker
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-take down?

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
Mel, you're starting to sound like a troll.

1. Scanning through this thread I don't see anyone that has said a sprawl is "the best thing". They have said that a sprawl is effective. I believe I have made the strongest claims when I wrote A sprawl is not the "end all, be all" martial technique. Like any technique it may not fit all situations. Be that as it may, it is easy to learn, effective, and is a high percentage move (effective in a wide variety of situations against a wide range of skilled attackers) that has proven itself over and over again.

2. Jorx has answered your question twice.

3. If you're going to omit a technique because you think it may not be the most appropriate thing to do against multiple attackers, you better get rid of swari-waza post haste.

4. My honest advice. Go into a good wrestling club. College level would be best. Wear a shirt that says, "I support Title IX" on the front and "We need to cut more wrestling programs to have women's ping pong" on the back. Then ask two or three for a friendly match. That will give you an idea as to how good your defence is against multiple attackers and/or wrestling shots.

Regards,

Paul
Paul,

I'm sorry to sound like a troll, I just felt no one answered my question.

You are partially right in pointing out that Jorx answered it. I think it was only once, and it was after my last post.

I've had excellent results with swari waza myself, but I can see where many would think it useless.

I hadn't asked for advice but thanks for offering it. I agree that it is very useful to interact with others skilled in different martial arts. I usely do so to try to sharpen my Aikido skills not to learn another art. Plus, you are quite funny!

I used to find Aikido lacking as it seems many that post here do. I find it less so the more I train, so I try to find Aiki answers rather than try to develop my own martial art by gathering a hodge podge of techniques.

Mel Barker
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Old 06-04-2004, 07:47 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Hi Mel,

Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. Just because people here are aware of that, doesn't mean that they find aikido 'lacking'. They are just being honest with themselves and others about what they see in the art.

I'm not giving up aikido any time soon, that's for sure, even if a high school wrestler manages to take me down. 'Course, since I used to wrestle, I do have a clue what to do if he gets me down!
Ron (I always liked throwing in the leg anyway...gotta love that guillotine!)

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Old 06-05-2004, 09:46 PM   #38
Pauly
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

As far as defenses go, if your arms are free, what happened to sticking your fingers in his eyes, or biting him real hard (and worrying about bloodborne pathogens later)? Is that stuff not AIKI? I think, arrogantly to be sure, that it sure as heck is aiki if I'm doing it.

Granted that kind of stuff is hard on ukes, but when did that stuff leave the rule book. I leg-grabbing jerk is going to ignore the fact that he's attacking me without nice comfy tatami to fall on, I might not limit myself to a "sprawl" (whatever the hell that is) or an adroitly executed kotegaeshi. Peace out!
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Old 06-06-2004, 04:02 AM   #39
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Paul Leffingwell wrote:
As far as defenses go, if your arms are free, what happened to sticking your fingers in his eyes, or biting him real hard (and worrying about bloodborne pathogens later)? Is that stuff not AIKI? I think, arrogantly to be sure, that it sure as heck is aiki if I'm doing it.

Granted that kind of stuff is hard on ukes, but when did that stuff leave the rule book. I leg-grabbing jerk is going to ignore the fact that he's attacking me without nice comfy tatami to fall on, I might not limit myself to a "sprawl" (whatever the hell that is) or an adroitly executed kotegaeshi. Peace out!
Umm... I don't want to jump into conclusions but usually people starting this kind of talk live quite far off from the planet called REALITY.

Full-contact sparring experience tends to eliminate the hopes of going for "the dirty stuff" in the street and that it "mystically saves!"

a) HE is able to do the same dirty stuff
b) With a really poor delivery system you can't deliver these "dirty techniques"

And when you do not know what a sprawl is, I'm pretty sure you have never felt a nice double-leg takedown either.

To be able to execute ANY technique you must constantly practice the motions which lead you to this technique - your delivery system must be very solid and only way to get it solid is to train it with uncooperative partner with unpredictable movement.

KNOWING that "sure I can eye gouge or bite him or kick him in the nads" is not enough. And you might just discover that these things are really hard to do while being run into, lifted up, slammed into the pavement (in training case tatami) and mounted and pounded from above.

Any more questions?
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Old 06-07-2004, 03:08 AM   #40
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?FID=21&a=27&TID=0
And take the post WHY NOT STREET...
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:17 PM   #41
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Budd is "teh corr3ct"! (Hi Budd)

From my recent experiences in "rasslin", I will say that there are not as many differences in wrestling principles and aikido principles as you may think. Look to sumo (arguably the base of all Japanese martial arts) and see what they do. Use what works, that to me is "aiki". BTW sprawling is easy, therefore that's what I do.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 06-08-2004, 04:55 AM   #42
Pauly
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

My comments were in the vein of wild speculation and Jorgen, you are absolutely correct that I haven't ever experienced a good double leg takedown (and hope I never do, outside of a training environment).

Thanks for the link Jorgen. I have tried to get some of the more athletic folks at my dojo to train with a broader (more realistic and varied) perspective in attacks but it's been an uphill battle. Not to knock any of my training partners, but their attitude has been "if you do the technique right, it'll work no matter what." I find that answer unsatisfying.

What is meant in your context by the term "delivery system"? Do you mean the manner in which a technique is executed, or the training level of the person performing the technique? Thanks again for your responses.
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Old 06-08-2004, 10:07 AM   #43
paw
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Paul Leffingwell wrote:
What is meant in your context by the term "delivery system"?
That's a term that is used by Matt Thornton of the Sraight Blast Gym . Thornton uses the term "delivery system" to separate the techniques from an art from the sporting application of the art.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-08-2004, 12:52 PM   #44
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
That's a term that is used by Matt Thornton of the Sraight Blast Gym . Thornton uses the term "delivery system" to separate the techniques from an art from the sporting application of the art.

Regards,

Paul
Umm... not quite sure but you meant with that... but as far as I understand this conception is that a delivery system is something from where you deliver your technique what do you build your techniques on and from where you execute them. Umm... I try to give some examples...

Some grappling arts (for example Judo, BJJ, Sambo) use the same topgame delivery system. They have the same positions and same movements from one position to another (side mount, mount scarf etc). The techniques may vary a bit (some have some locks some have other locks etc) but they all have the same delivery system. And as empiric facts show this far this may be the best grappling topcontrol delivery system. (And therefore Sambo vs Bjj discussion is pointless because they share the same delivery system... you may argue bjj vs. silat though)

Ippon seoi-nage / armthrow / vertushka (judo /wrestling) is the same technique executed on the same delivery system.

Boxing / kickboxing / muay thai share the same delivery system of delivering strikes. The exact ways how they strike may differ but the delivery system remains the same.

Now... you may take a boxer and teach him how to jab EYES in like ten minutes. That's because he has the delivery system and he has trained it alive for helluvalot of time. But if you take an average joe from the street he may learn the technique of eyejabbing in ten minutes as well if he has some coordination but he will NOT be able to deliver this technique in a live fight. Same goes for some mighty-yellow-biting-snake-gung-fu (name just thought out by me for those who didn't understand) practioners who has practiced only his traditional forms involving eye-jabbing for his whole life.

Ground arts have four delivery systems: topgame, bottomgame, guardgame, game of being in the guard. If one is missing or not trained enough then the complete game will seriously be lacking (as for example some Sambo where they have a very lacking game of guardpassing because they only try to do leglocks).

Sport karate and Taekwondo have a bit different delivery systems than boxing, kickboxing etc. And again different delivery systems than traditional shotokan karate-do for example...

Pheew... I think that's enough for now...
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Old 06-08-2004, 08:06 PM   #45
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

We practice this on occaision, and the defence usually involves an open palm atemi to the middle of the back or back of the neck (back of the nexk being the most effective but least practiced in the dojo) as you tenkan to the side. It isn't the best response, but it work pretty well to move your attackers mind. Then you can move into other techniques from there usually doing some form of kokyu-nage.

With an experienced wrestler or ground martial arts practitioner, it may be difficult to do this. As nagi, you will need to be very relaxed and able to move from one-point quickly (not necessarily fast).
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:53 AM   #46
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I may have glossed over this in my previous post, but I want to add that, in my opinion, it's critical that if you are practicing defenses against a leg-shoot (double leg, single leg, low single, etc) that, regardless of the specific defense, you are practicing against an uke that knows how to deliver a strong, legitimate attack. I've seen plenty of 'defense against leg-shots' that amount to uke attempting a clumsy tackle, which gives nage all the time in the world to respond.

Of course, I also think the same thing regarding defenses to punches and kicks, but I'm funny that way.

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Old 06-09-2004, 07:28 AM   #47
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:

<bunch of good stuff about delivery systems for different arts>
I agree with you fully, the fact that Aikido is not practiced in a sparring, competitive way against other Aikidoka and in tournaments against other arts is a huge detriment to the average Aikidoka who plans on using what he knows in a "fight"

The techniques themselves, the locks and throws and pins of Aikido are all extremely effective, if you practice them in the context of a good "deliver system" (I like to call it fighting strategy) because there is nothing technically and conceptually wrong with the techniques of Aikido.

The footwork should be the basis of the Aikido delivery system but as can be seen in most martial arts, when martial artists compete for real against each other, the fancy techniques go flying out the window and whats left looks like some sub or superset of kickboxing (in the case of striking arts like karate, boxing, kung fu) or like some sub or superset of amateur (as opposed to WWF style pro wrasslin') wrestling (in the case of grappling arts)

The problem comes in when people try and fit Aikido into and around this "fighting context", all Aikido techniques rely on a fine degree of timing, distance, timing, relaxation and did I mention timing. In the grip of an adrenaline dump, timing and relaxation go out the window and there are no large muscle group techniques to fall back on like the case with striking and grappling arts (where strength and/or striking power has value in the respective delivery system)

This is where the footwork comes back into the picture, its not just to get you offline I believe, its to allow you to "catch your breath" even while somebody is attacking you. The purpose of footwork is evading the initial attack with a secodary purpose of putting you into a better tactical advantage. If you can keep evading until you are in just the right place, at just the right moment and after the biggest effects of the adrenaline has passed, Aikido happens.

The best thing to do with threads like these "what technique works against this other technique or attack?" is to frame the question in the following way: "how does Aikido's delivery system / fighting strategy/ fundamental principles deal with this technique or attack?" and answer it out of your own experience.
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Old 06-09-2004, 07:32 AM   #48
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

I think it's worth adding that I don't really think it's totally necessary, per se, to learn good defenses against takedowns, in order to be an accomplished aikidoka. If your primary interest in aikido is just to study the discipline, then you may never come across defenses to leg-shoots, clinch-throws and/or retracting strikes from persons that really know how to deliver said techniques. I think it was George Ledyard Sensei that wrote that your chances of being attacked by a Royce Gracie-level opponent are pretty slim. I agree with this, in principle, since I don't find it likely that Bruce Baumgartner or Aleksandr Karelin will suddenly be stalking you in an alley with intent to crush you with leg-shots and hip-throws.

Having said that, I think that grappling is an excellent skill to learn. As I lament the demise of college-level wrestling programs across the country, I wonder at the number of times I hear people say, "That's just wrestling." or "Wrestling's just a sport!" or "If someone's attacking you, they're probably bigger and wrestling won't help you anyway!". That's what I've heard about wrestling, but I've heard similar things about judo, sambo, Brazilian jiu jitsu, etc. Even though they've been shows to be effective in "NHB" type contests, they're still dismissed as having less value as martial arts (I've heard folks refuse to acknowledge wrestling as a martial art) because they are most often viewed through the lens of 'sport'.

I'm not looking to stir up the 'sport' vs. 'street' debate. My argument is more along the lines that having a basic grappling game is something that's only going to enhance any other martial skills you may possess. Ellis Amdur Sensei writes better than I ever could about the virtues of teaching children to grapple as a preparation tool for arts, like aikido, that are more complex in both philosophy and technique. As for the arguments of wieght classes, men vs. women, etc. I think there's validity there, but let me ask you this, "If you're caught unarmed by someone larger that's trying to grapple with you, wouldn't having grappling skills allow you to put to more advantageous use your restraining, striking and/or weapons work?"

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Old 06-09-2004, 05:48 PM   #49
Chris Birke
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

If someone went for my legs, I would sprawl, crossface, and stand up.

Attacking someone who is shooting for you will only ensure that they take you down. Tried this many times, blows don't work nearly as well as sprawls. A blow may stop the shot 1 out of 20 times, a sprawl 10 of 20. You can always sprawl, then deliver a much stronger blow. To not do the latter strikes me as ignorance.

Because a sprawl has left your opponent uninjured and distressed, in combat you may then hold the head down and knee it, shove the head down, stand, and soccer kick it, or perhaps repeatedly drop elbows to the cervical spine. This should quickly induce unconsciousness or death, and is the effect you were going for when you tried to knee the shoot, so you should now be quite happy to implement it from crossface.

In multiple people situations, I would still sprawl, crossface, and stand up.

Also, I will do this, call it a sprawl, and teach people to do this. Whether or not it is Aikido is not a question.
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Old 06-10-2004, 02:23 PM   #50
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Whether or not it is Aikido is not a question.
Well, semantically speaking, it is a question...but you may find it not worth asking...

Or maybe the answer is just obvious to you?

Its definately a tool to be aware of, in my mind.
RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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