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Old 06-02-2004, 07:52 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Maybe you should - because you'ld be wrong.
yup, I'm with Peter on this one. Tomiki Sensei was never 'excommunicated' by Ueshiba. It was after he died that the main split with the aikikai occured, to the best of my knowledge.

There's a problem with a 'test' based on false information. I tried to tell someone else that once...they replied that I 'wasn't looking deep enough'. Hogwash. They just had their facts wrong.

Paul Watt and others have often asked on what basis does someone judge 'spiritual growth' in aikido. I feel led to ask the same question here. Were the uke in that exam injured? Were the yudansha in question members of the mob?

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-02-2004, 09:28 AM   #27
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Ron, isn't "spiritual growth" directly proportional to the amount transfered into the sensie's bank account???

</joke>
</sarcasm>
</irony>
</taking'the'piss:cults:Scientology>

NOTE THAT THIS IS A JOKE.... in case I offend anyone: get a sense of humour! Yes, it's spelt with a "U" like colour and flavour and Loure!!!

</more:sarcasm>
</more:irony>

... Hum, maybe I should go back to reading about Bayesian game theory instead of posting here... Yes, I shall do that.

*grin*

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-02-2004, 09:47 AM   #28
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
....I realized why they failed in the first place. Six years (I estimated) had passed, with the training and instructing, still no spiritual growth....If you love the art, then put in the extra effort to find out what it is all about, from all angles. How do the techniques blend with the philosophy? Don't just wait for the kyu/yudansha exams. The test begins the moment we step on the mat
Quote:
David Yap wrote:
This maxim from Gichin Funakoshi applies aptly to our jiyu-waza as it would to karate-do: "Create an opening and you would find the technique". With this, I leave it to you to figure out what he meant
How long have you been training?

How old are you?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-02-2004, 10:57 AM   #29
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique.

RT
I just finshed watching several videos which were done by Hikitsuchi Sensei before he died and in every one he repeatedly stressed the need to "not wait" to "initiate". This idea of no attack has more to do with the "Heart" than who starts the physical movement.

As Ron has pointed out, the few books by M.Ueshiba support this idea. You can certainly find Deshi from every period during which O-Sensei taught who say the same thing. My own teacher came from the final period in which O-Sensei taught and I was never taught to wait.

I think this apparent contradiction is one of those Koans contained in our pratcice that we have to figure out on our own. It's not going to come from discussion but practice.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 06-02-2004, 01:47 PM   #30
Don_Modesto
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
My own teacher came from the final period in which O-Sensei taught and I was never taught to wait.
Sometimes the timing of NAGE's "elicit" is perfect and you get sucked into NAGE's technique.

I've recoiled on occasion from elicits, though, and inadvertently foiled NAGE's technique. Sometimes it's too early and I'm not quite committed. Worse, when UKE for someone demonstrating technique, they turn from talking while I'm in the listening mode and elicit suddenly surprising me. I block, cocking one arm to punch.

Oops.

But I think this is the other side of the coin of honest attacks. If you're making honest attacks, you have to be in a certain mind-set and not just going along.

In my own training, I've been working on this elicit thing, I call it initiative, and, boy have I got a long way to go! In SUARI WAZA SHOMEN UCHI IKKYO, I elicit and invariably, UKE defends with the "wrong" arm and I have to recover with some other technique. It brings smiles to my students' faces so I'm glad someone's amused, but I expect this to remain on my training syllabus for a couple of years.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:03 AM   #31
SeiserL
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

IMHO, taking the original question more as koan or discussion starter, I could guess that the answer to the student's question should be found in personal training experience and not by asking verbal explanation from someone else. The proper answer would be to bow politely and get back to training.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:40 AM   #32
cguzik
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Interestingly, the Founder, himself, said there is no attack in Aikido. I take it as a kind of "koan" that I`ve yet to figure out.

To the original question, it was Okumura Shihan that asked about the various "sen" and the answer (as I remember it) is that there is only one sen. Again, another koan to figure out.
Charles Hill
If, at the highest levels, aikido is about recognizing and blending with someone's intent, then at the highest levels of aikido go no sen, sen no sen, and sen sen no sen all converge.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:46 AM   #33
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
I've recoiled on occasion from elicits, though, and inadvertently foiled NAGE's technique. Sometimes it's too early and I'm not quite committed. Worse, when UKE for someone demonstrating technique, they turn from talking while I'm in the listening mode and elicit suddenly surprising me. I block, cocking one arm to punch.

Oops.
Don,
If you recoil and it breaks the connection the nage wasn't doing it right. This happens alot. The Jeet Kun Do guys have a principle called CFP or Constant Forward Pressure. If you recoil, nage should instantly fill that gap. You will eventually be forced to defend. Too many people think the initiation of the attack is done with the arms. This allows uke to engage or disengage depending on his preferance. The initiative comes from the hara, from the body, the arms are just one possible expression. If it is the body which connects to uke's center he doesn't have the option of disengaging.

As for blocking with intent to punch, it should be assumed that this can happen, otherwise the whole thing is garbage. It should ALWAYS be assumed that the uke might actually initiate a defense and counter rather than merely blocking which no good martial artist will do. Your technqiue should work either way.

Nage does not control uke. For a principle to be valid it has to work, not based on a particular trained reaction, but on any possible reaction which the uke might have. Now if you are trying to demonstrate a particular technique it is necessary that the uke give you the response which allows that technqiue. But your failure to react "properly" shouldn't "beat" the nage's technique or he isn't doing it right.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:50 AM   #34
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Too many people think the initiation of the attack is done with the arms. This allows uke to engage or disengage depending on his preferance. The initiative comes from the hara, from the body, the arms are just one possible expression. If it is the body which connects to uke's center he doesn't have the option of disengaging.
Thanks, George. These lines set off a light bulb, i.e., new item for the training agenda. Much obliged.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-05-2004, 03:46 AM   #35
Charles Hill
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
But your failure to react "properly" shouldn't "beat" the nage's technique or he isn't doing it right.
Mr. Ledyard,

By this do you mean a prescribed technique, for example in a class situation where the teacher has shown a specific technique, and nage should be able to do that technique? Or do you mean that nage should be able to do some technique, maybe having to change to another technique?

I think your post is really important and gave me some things to think about for awhile, thanks.

Charles Hill
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Old 06-06-2004, 07:51 PM   #36
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Mr. Ledyard,

By this do you mean a prescribed technique, for example in a class situation where the teacher has shown a specific technique, and nage should be able to do that technique? Or do you mean that nage should be able to do some technique, maybe having to change to another technique?

I think your post is really important and gave me some things to think about for awhile, thanks.

Charles Hill
Both. It's not about what particular technique is winning, it's about who can be offensive and who can be defensive on the line of attack. The line of attack is the line between your two centers. On your entry, your partner should be oriented in such a way that you can execute an offensive move aginst his center and he can only react with a defensive move, His defensive reaction to this creates the technique.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 06-06-2004, 10:34 PM   #37
David Yap
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
There's a problem with a 'test' based on false information. I tried to tell someone else that once...they replied that I 'wasn't looking deep enough'. Hogwash. They just had their facts wrong.
Sorry for the late response. Been out of the country and away from the Net for the past 5 days.

I guess they're right - sometimes one has to look deeper, need to discard the decoys, the red herrings. One has to realize that communication structure and process are not standard across the globe, taking into consideration the diverse cultures - racial, religious and philosophical background, etc.

A Caucasian friend of mine related his training in a Japanese dojo. He was the only "gaijin" in the class. He was paired with another student when he heard the sensei barking out instructions/corrections in broken English to another pair of students working a distance away. He paid no heed and continued to do his thing and again heard the same instructions from the distance. This time it hit him, why would a Japanese sensei be correcting a pair of Japanese students in broken English unless the instructions were indirectly meant for him. He corrected what was supposedly wrong and the instructions stopped. Here again, I stress that MA teaches to be aware of the environment on or off the mat

Regards

David

Last edited by David Yap : 06-06-2004 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 06-07-2004, 08:33 PM   #38
David Yap
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Chris Guzik wrote:
If, at the highest levels, aikido is about recognizing and blending with someone's intent, then at the highest levels of aikido go no sen, sen no sen, and sen sen no sen all converge.
Hi Chris,

You are absolutely correct. There is only one "Sen" at the highest level as pointed out by Charles. Remember the incident when O Sensei was attacked with sword by a military officer. I think this was the starting point of O Sensei's enlightenment.

Some would say, "Shut up & train" but wouldn't it better we train with a goal of reaching this level. In the orient, realizing this is part of spiritual growth.

Regards

David

Last edited by David Yap : 06-07-2004 at 08:39 PM.
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