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Old 02-22-2001, 06:50 PM   #1
DiNalt
Join Date: Dec 2000
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I've been doing rolls on harder surfaces (such as non-carpeted floors and concrete) from time to time, and the thing that causes me to go ouch most often, is... the belt I wear around my pants/jeans/whatever it is at the moment !

The pain comes from it pressing against my kidney(s) at the point in time when that point of my back makes contact with the surface...


Has anyone else experienced this ? I'm curious...

I guess in the proper roll, only the arms make contact with the surface, eh ?
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Old 02-22-2001, 06:54 PM   #2
DiNalt
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Quote:
DiNalt wrote:

I guess in the proper roll, only the arms make contact with the surface, eh ?
Wait, I just realized it's impossible.
Maybe arms + upper back...
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:26 PM   #3
Niadh
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido, MA
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Not to be a complete smart a.., but I avoid this by not rolling on harder surfaces. I find that A nice face plant with some road rash on the hands works....

Sorry I slipped backwards for a moment.
Actually I notice the belt of my Gi even on nice soft mats. I guess I would say that the main thing is minimizing the pain (previously alluded to above) in whatever way possible. Sometimes this means exchanging it for lesser pain. But I would still question why you are rolling on harder surfaces? Just for the experience? I know that in a high adrenaline situation (such as soccer) I haven't even noticed the roll until later.
Neil

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Niadh Feathers
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Old 02-22-2001, 11:53 PM   #4
DiNalt
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Why ? Because I don't see any useful purpose to the rolls unless I can do them properly on real surfaces.

A guy I met, with ~6 years of Judo experience jumped off a moving car at 30mph (he had to, at that point - its a long story) and rolled... on the road... he had a few scratches but that is all.

Thankfully it was late and there were no other cars nearby.

So like I said - I see no point to rolling if it's only learned for the purpose of "playing on the mat" without any regard for unpleasant, unfortunate real-life circumstances.

I remember running in the park about 2 years ago... I was an idiot, plus haven't taken Aikido yet, so I decided to run as fast as I could, coincidentally I tripped at really high speed, landed on asphalt and got some skin off due to sliding.
It stung like hell, plus my elbow was hurt, and something else... I dont remember it very clearly.

However, I know that if the same thing happened now,I wouldn't be nearly as injured because I wouldnt hesitate to roll.
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Old 02-23-2001, 09:05 PM   #5
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
Location: Middle of nowhere in California 14 miles from Buellton
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I was once thrown and did a back rool the only thing the hurt where my nees ( i roled then got on my knees then went in a santce veryn bad mind you) it was okay it was on a hard tile floor and i was thrown. In Tang Wei my sensi tried to teach us how to roll on harder surfaces. i asked him to do it and hi did i asked if it hurt he said no! so I dont know If not at the dojo I use carpit!! gotta go bye

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 02-23-2001, 11:34 PM   #6
Niadh
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido, MA
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Actually I didn't phrase the why question very well. What I meant was why PRACTICE on hard surfaces. From experience, as you improve your rolls and they become more automatic, you will find you do them in just the situation you mentioned, but you can avoid the possible complications of practicing them on a hard surface can cause. If you can roll, if you roll alot and it becomes ingrained in you, it wont really matter where you roll. Like your friend, a few bumps but no biggy.
Neil

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Niadh Feathers
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Old 02-24-2001, 01:40 AM   #7
DiNalt
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"Ask the experienced, not the learned." - Arab quotation

Quote:
Niadh wrote:
Actually I didn't phrase the why question very well. What I meant was why PRACTICE on hard surfaces. From experience, as you improve your rolls and they become more automatic, you will find you do them in just the situation you mentioned, but you can avoid the possible complications of practicing them on a hard surface can cause. If you can roll, if you roll alot and it becomes ingrained in you, it wont really matter where you roll. Like your friend, a few bumps but no biggy.
Neil
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Old 02-24-2001, 02:37 PM   #8
Erik
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Quote:
DiNalt wrote:
Why ? Because I don't see any useful purpose to the rolls unless I can do them properly on real surfaces.
What about when those people wearing the pajamas and funny looking skirts do strange things to you? Does rolling help you then? Huh, smart guy?

Quote:
The pain comes from it pressing against my kidney(s) at the point in time when that point of my back makes contact with the surface...
I'm guessing your roll is defective in some way. You probably aren't doing a good job with the shoulder to the hip but without seeing it I can't say for sure. Is your belt facing the front?

Personally, I hate hard surfaces and won't roll on them to just roll on them. I've gone over the handlebars on my mountain bike (more than once), fallen on concrete several times and rolled so well most folks didn't even notice it. I guess what I'm saying is that the ukemi I was taught on the mat has proved itself in the real-world, so I'll stick to the mat.

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Old 02-24-2001, 03:09 PM   #9
DiNalt
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The "people in funny pajamas" and the "strange things they do" is what is commonly referred to as "training".

When an individual comes out of "training", they ideally take what they got, outside - for example many people strive to be able to be always "Aiki", which obviously includes being "Aiki" OUTSIDE of the dojo.

Same applies to the techniques, and ukemi.

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Old 02-24-2001, 03:22 PM   #10
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
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If you can do ukemi on the mat you'll be fine on a hard surface (well, as fine as you can be).

Try doing knuckle pushups and spinning kicks on a tennis court!

Gim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-24-2001, 04:31 PM   #11
Erik
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Quote:
DiNalt wrote:
The "people in funny pajamas" and the "strange things they do" is what is commonly referred to as "training".

When an individual comes out of "training", they ideally take what they got, outside - for example many people strive to be able to be always "Aiki", which obviously includes being "Aiki" OUTSIDE of the dojo.

Same applies to the techniques, and ukemi.
Getting testy are we? Ok, I was being a smart ass but I figured of all people (other than Jim23).

Everything I've been taught and practiced, at least in regards to rolling, has worked fine off the mat. It's passed every test it's needed to and with flying colors. The only thing I have not done is take a high fall on concrete (I've done grass) and I hope never to try that one.

In regards to your rolls, I still think it's an angle issue but without seeing what you are doing it's really hard to say as I don't have this problem. Out of curiousity what do your sempai and instructors say?

[Edited by Erik on February 24, 2001 at 03:43pm]
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Old 02-24-2001, 04:51 PM   #12
nicola
Location: italiy
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Hi
I sometimes did ukemi on hard sufaces. For a while I just liked doing that to show my friends what i could do (very childish, i know). I also used to try that in the basketball gym in the school I worked in at the time.
I can't remember having any problem in those circumstances.
However I did have to take ukemi twice on the road, both times when falling from my bicicle. The first time everything was so fast it was over before I realized what had happened ( no harm). The second time, when i was a couple of years more practised, I fell when going much slower. My instinct made me put my hand in front of me to stop the fall (instead of rolling). I then remembered, rolled and had a shoulder pain that lasted about a week (the strenght was transmitted there through the arm from the floor). I never had problems with my belt, but it showed me that this sort of things work better when you don't think about it.

just my 0.02 euros.
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Old 02-24-2001, 07:25 PM   #13
Guest5678
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Ukemi on hard floor

I do this once in awhile just to find the corners in my rolls. Personally, I sometimes get lazy when rolling on a nice mat too much. The hard floor reminds me to be as round as possible and to blend.....I think it's good training as long as common sense is used and you start kneeling, then work your way to starting from a standing position.

Regards,

Dan P. -Mongo

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Old 02-26-2001, 11:03 AM   #14
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
DiNalt wrote:
I've been doing rolls on harder surfaces (such as non-carpeted floors and concrete) from time to time, and the thing that causes me to go ouch most often, is... the belt I wear around my pants/jeans/whatever it is at the moment !

The pain comes from it pressing against my kidney(s) at the point in time when that point of my back makes contact with the surface...
I'm not sure I understand. The kidneys are above the pelvic bone, and most people wear their pants in such a manner where their belts are at or below their pelvis. When wearing a dogi, however, the obi is usually positioned right on the kidneys. You say "around my pants/jeans/whatever" so are you wearing your dogi while practicing ukemi on hard surfaces or are you wearing your pants too high?

Robert Cronin
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Old 02-26-2001, 12:53 PM   #15
ian
 
ian's Avatar
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I tend not to roll on harder surfaces myself, because I find my hip tends to hurt a bit, and sometimes the knee I rise on.

However, I have had the pleasure of doing this for real (being thrown in a night-club and doing a reverse ukemi, and tripping over outside and doing a foward ukemi). There is nothing to worry about - the motion seems to carry you through much better and you don't feel a thing (especially if you have a bit of adrenalin!). Neither incident caused any pain, bruising or anything.

I would say, don't bother practising on hard surfaces, just make sure your ukemis are OK in the dojo and just let your body use outside ukemis when you need them (I wouldn't recommend ukemis as part of anyones normal outside 'technique' 'cos you never know if there is going to be a kerb or broken bottle, or a boot flying at you as you do it - ukemi occurs when you do something wrong!)

P.S. When I was young and reckless I was thrown with a koshi-nage on a hard surface (by a friend this time). Not only did my hand sting with the break fall but I broke my watch!

Ian
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