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Old 02-14-2001, 12:36 PM   #26
Jim23
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m(_ _)m

It seems that everyone I talk to has a different opinion about atemi. Some say it's just done to set up another technique, others say the opposite, that it's meant to do serious damage.

Here's what I found in the words of Kenji Tomiki:

----------
"... Thus the study of Jujitsu's striking and joint-locking techniques started to be far outstripped by the study of throwing and holding techniques. If we look at many of the old Jujitsu schools it is clear, however, that those striking and joint-locking techniques were held in great regard.

Generally speaking an Atemi Waza was a technique in which you strike the opponent at a physiologically weak point (ie. a vital point) in order to render him unconscious. Kansetsu waza were joint locks that were designed to attack an opponent's joint in order to cause severe sprains or dislocations. Although these techniques do have this dangerous side to them, I feel that if you really understand the fundamentals of these techniques you will see that the resulting concussion or pain is only an incidental part of the technique and can be divorced from the technique proper as such. Even though these techniques were designed by our predecessors to have such dangerous and lethal end results, the main core of the technique could still, nevertheless, be seen as a throw or a hold.

Therefore the striking techniques of Aikido incorporate the idea of balance breaking; the result being that the opponent is brought down due to loss of balance rather than because he was hit on some vital point. Thus it is not necesary to kill or hurt him by using strong impact, nor is it necessary to train your hand or fist to withstand such impact.

In the modern Budo form of Judo, the aim is to break the opponent's balance and throw him by using foot and hip movements without injuring him. Similarly in the Atemi Waza of the modern Budo form of Aikido, the aim should be to take advantage of breaking your opponent's balance and push or strike him down using your hand or arm without injuring him."

--------

His view is very clear. But I'm sure there are many others.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-14-2001, 01:30 PM   #27
Erik
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Quote:
RobTrim wrote:
I think one of the biggest areas of division concerning atemis, is their 'purpose', i.e. are they there to distract, disable, knock out etc..
I agree, it's all over the map. I've been taught the "be aware of all strikes during technique bit". I've also seen atemi such as sucking up a big gob of spit (yes, it's gross), dropping the shoulder, moving the head, moving the feet, popping the hakama, basically anything that takes the mind of the attacker. On the other end, I've also been told that if they don't get out of the way of your atemi, well, they should have gotten out of your way.

Personally, I can forsee using all of the above depending on the situation but all things being equal I'd rather not hit someone. It can hurt, a lot, and I'm probably not as good at that as the other guy. Better to play my game instead of their game. Then again, it's great uke training and if you don't know it....

Looks like I'm going around in circles.
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Old 02-15-2001, 07:33 PM   #28
Jim23
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m(_ _)m

Atemi is either to set up for a technique (which is fine), or it's a blow to hurt/do damage (which is fine, also).

Problem is, if it's meant to do damage, it has to be trained for over and over and over again. Otherwise, it won't really work, even if you can hurt someone in class - sorry, that ain't good enough.

What I'm trying to say, is that if someone attacks you (in real life), a strong punch might not really help. Some people out there are really tough - if you have that wicked punch, fine, otherwise use what works for you.

Only makes sense to me.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 01:46 AM   #29
sceptoor
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Problem is, if it's meant to do damage, it has to be trained for over and over and over again. Otherwise, it won't really work, even if you can hurt someone in class - sorry, that ain't good enough. That's right, but this would also apply to Karate, or any other "striking" art BTW.

What I'm trying to say, is that if someone attacks you (in real life), a strong punch might not really help.Exactly!!!but redirecting that strong punch WILL Some people out there are really tough - if you have that wicked punch, fine, otherwise use what works for you.



Exactly!!! I couldn't have said it better. This is the "idea" of Aikido. In other martial arts, strength will always be a factor in determining a "winner". Not so in Aikido. This is why punches and kicks are not a primary focus. Primary focus is on your own center, blending with the attacker's center, their inertia, and redirection of their attacks or energy, not "counterstriking" with (hopefully) more strength. Two people hitting each other is fighting, two people blending with each other's energy is Aikido.

C. Martin

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Old 02-16-2001, 07:13 AM   #30
Jim23
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We agree!

My point is that if you DO decide to use punches, get a heavy bag or makiwara board (http://ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/makiwara.html) and practice.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 08:03 AM   #31
RobTrim
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Hi guys,

Mmmm...atemi.
I see it this way;
O-sensei described Aikido as being "99%" atemi (or there-abouts), as I have said previously. To me that means that atemi should be a part of your technique just as blending or tenkan/irimi is.

To that end I have looked closely at what atemi is. I used to study Shotokan Karate - which I know is fairly devoid of the martial content it's Okinawan cousins have - where the point was to perfect your punching or kicking technique, to provide the greatest impact, on a target of your choice.

So I developed a strong accurate punch and kick, but then thought 'what if the my attacker is stronger or tougher than me - and what if he is wearing a leather jacket and a helmet!!?'. I also at this time started hearing about things called pressure points and meridians and Ki/Chi.

This led to an investigation of Kyusho - which incidentally led me to start practicing Aikido - and the realisation that there was an immense depth to the art of striking that I had never been tought. I now saw that it was possible to KO, or severly weaken a person - of any size - with simple 'taps' on pressure points! (dont take my word for it, look at http://www.kyusho.com and check out the video clips).

This means that the development of a strong punch, was unnecessary and the focus was back on 'technique' rather than brute force.

As I said don't take my word for it,look at the site.

Peace,

Rob.
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Old 02-16-2001, 09:12 AM   #32
Jim23
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Amazing stuff!

Wouldn't want to be in that class though - ouch!. Looks a lot like a ju-jitsu class that I saw a while back.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 09:24 AM   #33
RobTrim
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Hi Jim,

It makes you think doesn't it!!

Trust me though, the classes do not just involve mass KO sessions! . Techniques are practiced very safely, usually in the kind of paired kata practice that we are used to in Aikido, also various situational drills are used, solo kata forms (which serve as the blue-prints to the self defence and kyusho techniques), etc.. etc..

Most of the time the point is only very lightly indicated or 'touched'. Some cause energy loss, others KO and some death or long term damage. I have only had a very recent introduction to the practice, so I cannot comment further than that.

What I can say, is that as a result of joining one of their mailing lists I have had the chance to talk to these guys about their real life situations, and usually they have no problem (comparitively) with performance of these techniques 'under fire'. Also there are many, many Aikidoka students involved with Sensei Pantazi's association, and feel that it completes their understanding of the use of atemi in Aikido.

Peace,

Rob.
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Old 02-16-2001, 09:38 AM   #34
Jim23
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Rob,

It makes perfect sense to me.

The point I was making earlier was to do with effectiveness with strikes - this stuff looks very effective!

I just find it annoying to see green belts in aikido, karate, etc. doing the punching and kicking dance, thinking they could be effective on the nice type of guy who might attack them.

Nothing wrong if they don't plan on using it though. Distract, then do your stuff.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 10:29 AM   #35
RobTrim
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Jim,

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. It seems as if for many Aikido ryu, the atemi portions of techniques are ommited. People tend to assume that atemi is something that they can choose to 'opt' for in Aikido.

Judging by everything I have read and watched from Aikido Yudansha, including O-sensei, indicates that atemi isn't something you 'add' to techniques, rather, atemi are an integral part of all aikido techniques.

This may not be relvant to some Aikido students, as they just may not wish to practice them, which is entirely their perogative. For me personally, I am interested in the deeper concepts and techniques of Aikido and atemi is one that cannot be excluded.

Peace,

Rob.
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Old 02-16-2001, 01:47 PM   #36
Erik
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
I just find it annoying to see green belts in aikido, karate, etc. doing the punching and kicking dance, thinking they could be effective on the nice type of guy who might attack them.
I was curious if you'd hit (pun intended) the other arts. I believe what you are discussing is universal to any closed system and deeper than just atemi. What I mean by this is that in a school systems are set up to produce certain results. Those results work fine in the system. For instance, dojo A does ikkyo version 19, dojo B does ikkyo version 64 and it works fine in each dojo. Go to the other dojo and it doesn't work so well because the training is structured and ukes are trained for it to not work. Both techniques are also probably correct given the dojo situation but certainly incomplete in themselves and who knows on the street.

I think what you are really trying to say is that we are fooling ourselves if we don't question what we are doing on a regular basis.

[Edited by Erik on February 16, 2001 at 01:00pm]
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Old 02-16-2001, 02:57 PM   #37
Jim23
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I'm not sure if I understand the first part of your post.

However, for:

Quote:
[i]Erik wrote:
I think what you are really trying to say is that we are fooling ourselves if we don't question what we are doing on a regular basis.
[/b]
This should be a given. In all things.

I was just really making an observation regarding poor technique. Just because you can swing a tennis racket, doesn't mean you have a good smash or lob or can apply topspin - although you may have fun on the court with a friend.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 03:23 PM   #38
Erik
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
I'm not sure if I understand the first part of your post.
I was once told by a Tae Kwon Do guy that he was taught never to catch a kick. Gee, I wonder why? I'd bet they never see someone who might do something with one of those kicks. They operated in a closed environment.

We do it too, it just isn't that obvious.
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Old 02-16-2001, 03:37 PM   #39
Jim23
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Quote:
Erik wrote:

They operated in a closed environment.

We do it too, it just isn't that obvious. [/b]
You're right. It's like people in a religion (no offense meant) discussing another. We're right and you're wrong (we just won't say it to your face).

What I found strange at first about Taekwondo, karate, etc., was that everyone trains in stances, katas, etc., and although I know the benefits of katas, when it came time to spar, you basically did whatever worked, based on your skills (even grabbing a foot).

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 03:50 PM   #40
Jim23
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That's probably why there are so many styles of karate and even aikido.

Quite often when someone gets very good at whatever style, they like to think that they can improve it by eliminating certain aspects and adding others.

Look at the variations of even aikido.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 04:10 PM   #41
Jim23
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Erik,

Have you taken a look at the other thread "Nihon Goshin Aikido"? Aikido which includes every important aspect of every great fighting system of Japan.

Interesting. And they claim it's the first aikido taught in North America.

How many styles are they?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-16-2001, 04:29 PM   #42
Erik
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
What I found strange at first about Taekwondo, karate, etc., was that everyone trains in stances, katas, etc., and although I know the benefits of katas, when it came time to spar, you basically did whatever worked, based on your skills (even grabbing a foot).
And how many people's first offensive move is a wrist grab or shomen strike?
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Old 02-16-2001, 04:43 PM   #43
DiNalt
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Quote:
Erik wrote:

And how many people's first offensive move is a wrist grab or shomen strike?
Mine...
But I'm different from everyone else in this hospital.

I do not really come from the outer space, and even though that reality is completely real to me, it's just a product of my imagination.

When I get rid of that, I will be well.

1050 points if you can tell which movie this is from.
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Old 02-16-2001, 05:01 PM   #44
Erik
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Erik,

Have you taken a look at the other thread "Nihon Goshin Aikido"? Aikido which includes every important aspect of every great fighting system of Japan.

Interesting. And they claim it's the first aikido taught in North America.

How many styles are they?
Well, if they started in 1962 they could have been the first. That was a couple of years before Mom and Dad got around to me so I couldn't adress that. I was intrigued by the comment Ueshiba style Aikido. Since Ueshiba invented it, there isn't really another in that context. I did like some of the things they said though.

As to styles, I don't really believe in styles in the context you are referring to. I think everyone has a unique style. My single greatest pet peeve in this art is when someone looks at you and says, "ah, X style" or about themselves "I'm Y style." I'm a combo of stuff, picking up little bits and pieces from all over the place. I get really bumbed when I hear things like this because I think it totally misses the point. If I'm style X and style Y does a cool and effective whatever does that mean I can't use it because I do style X and we don't do it that way? That's stupid! You can't cookie cut that way and have it make any sense in the long term (short-term it might be different).

Our dojo has a 6' 6", 300 pound beginner in his 50's and he ain't gonna roll the same way a 5' 4" 110 pound 20 year old woman will. He's also going to do a much different irimi nage than that same woman will. It's inevitable but I'm not sure it's obvious to everyone.

Besides, it's just technique, who cares. Use it if it works and don't use it if it doesn't. Fortunately, I'm in place where I can do this but then I wouldn't be there if I couldn't.

[Edited by Erik on February 16, 2001 at 04:09pm]
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Old 02-22-2001, 02:07 PM   #45
Nick
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as far as I can see Jim, the answer to your original question lies at the top of the page:

AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Now, as to why I come here? To discuss issues with an interesting and diverse group of people about an activity I love.

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 02-22-2001, 02:24 PM   #46
Jim23
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Quote:
Nick wrote:
as far as I can see Jim, the answer to your original question lies at the top of the page:

AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Now, as to why I come here? To discuss issues with an interesting and diverse group of people about an activity I love.

Nick
Cool. It was staring us right in the face all along. Funny you should mention it, as I notice it every time I log on.

You must admit, there are some people here who are a bit touchy and cranky regardless of what's said and the tone it's said in. Heaven help us if Seagal ever logs on.

Maybe it's just the nature of this type of forum.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-23-2001, 03:54 AM   #47
RobTrim
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Heaven help us if Seagal ever logs on.

Jim23

Ok, ok I'm new...what's up with the whispering pony-tail man??

Curious,

Rob.
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Old 02-23-2001, 08:22 AM   #48
mornmd
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If Seagal ever does log on.....

I wouldn't worry. After getting choked out and soiling his underwear he'd be much more humble (see Seagal thread).

M
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