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Old 02-08-2001, 05:59 PM   #1
Jim23
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What is Aikido?

Is it a Way? This is cool, my life is so, like, together.

or

Is it an Art? You want a piece 'o me? Stay away from my sista.

Well, which is it?

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 8, 2001 at 06:39pm]

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-08-2001, 06:53 PM   #2
sceptoor
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It's both an art, and a way. But neither are the way you described. I could just as easily ask the same question regarding your preferred "other" martial art/way. How about we ask you "Well, do you train in Judo, or Karate?? Well?? Which is it??"

You really think that if it's a "martial art", then it's a way of threatening somebody?? And if it's a "martial way", then it's a declaration of a perfect life??

What is your "question" exactly??

C. Martin

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Old 02-08-2001, 07:05 PM   #3
Jim23
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Which word are you having trouble understanding?

Way or Art?

Jim23

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Old 02-08-2001, 08:35 PM   #4
sceptoor
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Gee, that's original, and I think I answered your question. It's both. What part of "BOTH" do YOU not understand??

I've read a lot of your posts over the past few weeks, and it seems your only objective is to belittle Aikido and/or it's practitioners by attempting to convince aikidoka that our martial ART of choice is all just a waste of time committed by a bunch of naive people. If you're so interested in the art, you would go find a dojo of your liking, get on the mat and experience it yourself instead of spending your time on an Aikido message board complaining about how "unrealistic" and "ineffective" the attacks/techniques are. You are the epitome of the sadly common guy that waltzes into a dojo (of any art)and asks questions like "how long till I get my black belt??", and/or challenges the sensei by saying "Well, I train in (insert favorite MA here) and blah, blah, blah". All of your posts seem to be a part of some sort of self appointed mission to enlighten us with "why we shouldn't train in Aikido and should train in Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Hapkido, Law enforcement tactics, Tai Chi, Tae Kwon Do, yada, yada, yada" I've got news for you. Most of us(and I think I can speak for most fellow aikidoka) have researched other martial arts, and have CHOSEN our martial art. Some have trained in other martial arts and hold high ranks in them and STILL choose Aikido as their favorite.

The fact is, I've trained in Karate. It didn't impress me much. Neither does Judo. I choose Aikido, at least for now. I frankly don't have the time to fit 10 different MA's into my day and become the ultimate, invincible, highly feared warrior. I just want to practice Aikido for now, and when I get a solid foundation, I MIGHT choose to train in geurilla warfare and become a special forces officer in the marines, until then, I only have time to train 3 nights a week in Aikido.

To be honest with you, I've recently been to websites of other martial arts. I've viewed their MPEGS on some techniques. I, unlike you, do not judge a martial art as a whole based on the few videos I've seen, but I have to tell you, from what little I have seen, it doesn't "appear" that their attacks are any more "realistic" than what you have seen from Aikido MPEGS!!! Aikido simply DIFFERS in it's fundamentals from other MA's from the get go. For one thing, GETTING OUT OF THE WAY of a committed knife attack(for example), is somehow MISSING from other martial arts. You can learn to "block" it, but what if he is stronger?? What if you're not quick enough to counter the strike?? YOU ARE STILL STANDING IN FRONT OF HIM, AND YOU WILL GET STABBED!!!

I hope I didn't offend any other aikidoka, and I hope I am not wrong, but if I am, please correct me after I apologize for being so, and wrongly representing. I'll be the first to apologize. I just get sick and tired of reading such arrogant crap.

C. Martin

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Old 02-08-2001, 08:46 PM   #5
Jim23
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
What is Aikido?

Is it a Way? This is cool, my life is so, like, together.

or

Is it an Art? You want a piece 'o me? Stay away from my sista.

Well, which is it?

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 8, 2001 at 06:39pm]
Touchy aren't we.

Find a mirror ... and look at it.

Who is being silly ar arrogant?

Jeez! get a life before you burst a vessel

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-08-2001, 08:49 PM   #6
Jim23
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:


To be honest with you, I've recently been to websites of other martial arts. I've viewed their MPEGS on some techniques. I, unlike you, do not judge a martial art as a whole based on the few videos I've seen, but I have to tell you, from what little I have seen, it doesn't "appear" that their attacks are any more "realistic" than what you have seen from Aikido MPEGS!!! Aikido simply DIFFERS in it's fundamentals from other MA's from the get go. For one thing, GETTING OUT OF THE WAY of a committed knife attack(for example), is somehow MISSING from other martial arts. You can learn to "block" it, but what if he is stronger?? What if you're not quick enough to counter the strike?? YOU ARE STILL STANDING IN FRONT OF HIM, AND YOU WILL GET STABBED!!!

Where did this come from? I wish I knew what you were smoking when you wrote this.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-08-2001, 08:56 PM   #7
sceptoor
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Well, which sentence in there are you having trouble with??

C. Martin

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Old 02-08-2001, 09:05 PM   #8
Jim23
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I asked a simple question in order to stimulate a response and you go postal on me, accusing me of draging the entire human race into the toilet.

If aikido doesn't work for you, take a sedative! C-h-i-l-l O-U-T-!

My question, again: Is it a WAY or a MARTIAL ART?

Comprehendo?

Jim23


Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-08-2001, 09:17 PM   #9
Jim23
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
Well, which sentence in there are you having trouble with??
Chris,

Next time, a controlled response please. Respond to the question and please don't attack me for ... I really can't find a reason why you did. Provoking thought perhaps?

What's eating at you? Or, maybe I should say: what have you eaten? Meditation has been known to work for some people - think about it!

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 8, 2001 at 10:02pm]

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-08-2001, 10:29 PM   #10
sceptoor
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Wink

Your last response has nothing to do with what I posted. NOTHING.

I never said Aikido doesn't work for me. Read my post again, let it sink in. And for the last time, I answered your question. BOTH. It is a martial art AND a martial way. For me, it is a martial art, but it's a martial way also. Have I been clear enough?? What is your deal anyway??

Have you gone and attended ANY Aikido classes yet?? If not, please respect our choice to practice aikido, and not Judo, Karate, or whatever else you consider "more street effective".

I haven't gone postal on you at all. However, I have been enduring your condescending questions towards other aikidoka for a while now, and frankly, I'm tired of it. For some reason, you have this fascination with all things "non-aikido", while at the same time pretending you are interested. Posting things that have to do with ANYTHING OTHER THAN Aikido. Do you expect us to jump up and say, "Thanks JIM!! Had you not let me know that there were other martial arts out there than aikido, I would have been stuck training in this worthless MA for years without realizing that Tae-Bo was better!!" And, meditation is not my thing, just like aikido is obviously not yours. Whatever works for you dude, as you have illustrated your vast background in every MA.(except for aikido)

You'll probably have the same old "wow, you're touchy" response I would expect from someone with nothing else to say.

C. Martin

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Old 02-09-2001, 03:29 AM   #11
Matt Banks
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well done

Very well said sceptoor,

You hit the nail right on the head. This is basically what Ive wanted to say but have never had the time to write it all. Id rather train. I feel exactly how you do.


once again

well said



Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 02-09-2001, 10:49 AM   #12
Jim23
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OK, I have a question.

What is the purpose of a forum like this? To constantly pat ourselves on the back and ask wishy-washy questions like "Should everyone train in aikido?" (no offence to the person who wrote that).

What's the point?

We need to provoke ourselves. We need to look around at what others are doing. We need to improve ourselves, be self-critical, not constantly pat ourselves on the back, saying things like "Gee, aikido is the best thing around, karatekas can't punch, and who cares, I don't care if my aikido works in a fight or not ... so don't bring that up". If I sound a bit stupid, that was my intention.

If you're at school or in a job or whatever, you should be aware of your life and try to improve yourself and your circumstances. The same applies to aikido. It's not perfect, it's not bad. It's not sacred! It is a martial art ... or way?

Is it wrong to look at other styles? At people who train at self-defence? At whatever?

And Matt, we were just discussing this topic (art/way) in another thread. You had no problem with it there - in fact it was quite civilized. What happened? If someone said that this was already discussed - fine. But this attack was uncalled for.

Am I wrong to bring up topics that wake people up? Questions that provoke us to think and actually respond? To keep this forum interesting?

Sceptor, you really have a chip on your shoulder and a very bad attitude. I wasn't attacking aikido. Just your childish and (very) agressive response.

And don't say that I deserved it. Read the question again.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 11:28 AM   #13
Jim23
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
OK, I have a question.

And Matt, we were just discussing this topic (art/way) in another thread. You had no problem with it there - in fact it was quite civilized.

Jim23
Sorry Matt, it wasn't you, it was Dan.

Actually I shouldn't say "sorry" - I'm being too nice here.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 01:51 PM   #14
Brian
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Ai symbol Looking in a mirror....

Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Touchy, aren't we?

I asked a simple question in order to stimulate a response and you go postal on me...

I wasn't attacking aikido. Just your childish and (very) aggressive response.
From the same person who wrote...

Quote:

Which word are you having trouble understanding?

I wish I knew what you were smoking when you wrote this.

What is the purpose of a forum like this? To constantly pat ourselves on the back and ask wishy-washy questions like "Should everyone train in aikido?"

Jeez! get a life before you burst a vessel

*cough*

Perhaps you should be the one to...


Quote:

Find a mirror ... and look at it.
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Old 02-09-2001, 02:39 PM   #15
Jim23
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Brian,

Read my question (which was a topic that came up in another thread and seemed worthy of a thread of it's own), then the rude attack that followed.

After that stupid assault I simply fed the same attitude back to him. By the way, I don't call people stupid very often. I don't even get argry very often.

My mirror looks just fine.

I'd better get ready for multiple attacks.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 02:41 PM   #16
Dan Hover
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this may seem a little late, but I find that questions and topics like these are asked by people who don't understand their own art let alone aikido

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-09-2001, 02:51 PM   #17
Jim23
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Dan,

Remember that we were discussing this topic earlier in another thread?

All I did was start a new thread with it, using the language I did in orded to get it rolling.

But, boy I touched on a nerve with it.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 02:55 PM   #18
Dan Hover
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if you really want to know, I would suggest reading up on the evolution of Bujutsu to budo, there are plenty of great sources out there, these books will not only put aikido in a proper perspective but put the other japanese arts into their proper frame of reference as well, being a book they will not touch a nerve, but will be objective. You will learn a lot, I did.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-09-2001, 03:05 PM   #19
Jim23
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Thanks for a civilized answer Dan. I really mean that.

Jim23

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Old 02-09-2001, 03:13 PM   #20
Magma
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Jim, I have to disagree. You didn't touch a nerve with your topic or what you said. You touched a nerve with your tone, attitude, and attacks. Personally, I don't see an attack in sceptoor's initial reponse to this thread that warranted the responses you have given since then. He wasn't as forgiving as he could have been, true, but that could have been from the tone of your previous posts.

And "feeding back the same attitude that you were given"? What is that? What speaks more highly of your character if you are physically slapped:
1) That you walk away, or at least remain in control of yourself? or
2) That you immediately slap the other person back just as hard?

If you feel you are being attacked, stay above it and don't let it get personal. But at the same time, think about what you're writing, because a great deal of the time it sounds like you are making personal attacks.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-09-2001, 03:28 PM   #21
Jim23
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Tim,

--------
How about we ask you "Well, do you train in Judo, or Karate?? Well?? Which is it??"

You really think that if it's a "martial art", then it's a way of threatening somebody?? And if it's a "martial way", then it's a declaration of a perfect life??
--------

Right. This was a guy trying to start a fight. If people can't see that, I'm really in a no-win situation here.

He was rude, so I responded in kind. Then he exploded.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-09-2001, 05:59 PM   #22
Greg Jennings
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Do symbol

What would you guys think of someone going into a Southern inner city neighborhood flying a large Confederate battle flag painted on the hood of his car?

Naive, proud of his heritage, watched too many "Dukes of Hazard" episodes, ignorant, culturally insensitive or trolling for an argument?

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-09-2001, 07:26 PM   #23
Matthieu
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Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

I've been practicing aikido for the last 5 years right now. To answer to Jim's question, is it a way or an art, I have to agree with Sceptoor. It is both. It depends on how you practice. Any martial arts could be martial ways and the other way arround. The most important thing is who's teaching you? For instance, aikido, without the philosophical thinking and with no regards towards the opponent is called aiki-jujutsu.
Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraï.
Feel free to debate!

When you learn to love hell, you will be in heaven
-Golas
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Old 02-09-2001, 07:29 PM   #24
Magma
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
He was rude, so I responded in kind. Then he exploded.

Jim23
See my post in the "What is the Purpose of this Forum?" thread for my reaction.

All I'm saying is "Why?" Why respond in kind? Respond more kindly and you will get the reaction you're looking for. Very likely sceptoor was responding the way he did based on other posts of yours that he had read, so how far back in the gradeschool game of cause-and-effect ("it's his fault", "no, it's his fault) do you want to go? Just accept responsibility and listen to how people are reacting to you. You'll get back what you send out.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-09-2001, 10:22 PM   #25
sceptoor
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Look JIM,
My last post pretty much sums it up. But my first response was really about asking you to be more specific, it wasn't intended to be condescending. However, you immediately responded with a condescending question, "Which word are you having trouble understanding?? Way or Art??" My response to that was completely called for. I am sorry you do not like my answer, but it is a valid answer. That's the idea of this forum is it not?? I'm not one to "attack" anyone usually, but I wouldn't call my response an "attack" anymore than I would call "shihonage" an attack.

Quote:
We need to provoke ourselves. We need to look around at what others are doing. We need to improve ourselves, be self-critical, not constantly pat ourselves on the back, saying things like "Gee, aikido is the best thing around, karatekas can't punch, and who cares, I don't care if my aikido works in a fight or not ... so don't bring that up". If I sound a bit stupid, that was my intention.

Is it wrong to look at other styles? At people who train at self-defence? At whatever?
I agree with this, but so far, I've never seen an aikidoka on this forum NOT agreeing with this, so why are we constantly being informed that there are other martial arts to choose from?? Do you think we don't know that?? As a matter of fact, I guarantee you that most aikidoka had heard of most other MA's long before they ever heard of aikido, so it's safe to assume that most aikidoka chose aikido for many personal reasons, not because it was the only MA available in their town. I'd say it's a rare thing that somebody would be training in aikido when suddenly they discover that there is a MA out there called "Karate". I agree that training in other martial arts would be beneficial, but that goes for ANY martial artist. Are you annoyed that aikido does not "spar"?? Sorry dude, but it's too incompatible and a "karatedoka" would end up getting INJURED, NOT because aikido is better, but because they don't know how to fall IN A COMPATIBLE MANNER, and no aikidoka (that I know of) wishes to injure anyone in the dojo.

Quote:
If you're at school or in a job or whatever, you should be aware of your life and try to improve yourself and your circumstances. The same applies to aikido. It's not perfect, it's not bad. It's not sacred! It is a martial art ... or way?
The same applies to aikido?? Oh my gosh, really?? Thanks for that enlightening revelation.

Your constant criticism and "eye opening" suggestions that we should "spar" with other MA's is not realistic. Do you really expect to persuade a forum full of aikidoka to suddenly adopt the "sparring and competition" attitude?? Has it crossed your mind that maybe aikidoka in general chose this art(partly) because there is no competition, no sparring, no trophies, and no belt factories??
Most people here do not believe in any of that, if they did, they wouldn't be aikidoka, they would be in Tae Kwon Do, Okinawan Karate, or Judo, or ......whatever.

Have you gotten on the mat yet?? I doubt you would have the patience to stay in it long enough to form a solid opinion. You don't just waltz into an aikido dojo, learn a few techniques, and then go pick a fight at your local pub to see if it works either. You have to UNLEARN what you have learned all of your life about "fighting" and/or defending yourself, because when people say aikido is not "fighting", it's not just hippy aiki philosophy, it's the truth.

C. Martin

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