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Old 02-13-2001, 10:55 PM   #51
sceptoor
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Quote:
sceptoor wrote:

I understood that much, I meant which one of us, Jim or I
Chris, don't worry about it. m(_ _)m

Hey Chris (Sceptoor - what the heck does that mean anyway? )

Got a question for you regarding sparring in Aikido. I've been doing some research and came across this, which you've possibly seen. It's to do with Tomiki Aikido (which everyone knows about, obviously).

I'm not trying to suggest that anyone adopt this, but it was on an Aikido site and I was wondering what you thought about it (couldn't bother to start a new thread either as I don't want to see my name in "lights").

Your thoughts please (I also have a question on different styles of Aikido, but that can wait for now).

--------

First and foremost Randori does not mean Shiai (match or game). The original name for Randori was Midaregeiko. The 'Ran' of Randori is the same Japanese Kanji character as the 'Midare' of Midaregeiko.

The practice is by no means easy and shouldn't be entered into in a flippant manner. Those who don't want to take part in an actual Shiai (competition) can still forge the techniques that they learned in Kata by doing Randorigeiko. There are three levels of Randorigeiko which you can choose from to best suit your level, age, physical condition, etc.

1) Kakarigeiko

In Kakarigeiko the Kata techniques of ordinary practice are put into use. There is still a Tori and an Uke. The Tori can apply techniques in any order he sees fit to cope with uke's mock attacks. There is no need to stick to a certain routine as in Kata practice. The Uke puts up no resistance and should quickly do whatever ukemi is suitable for the technique that Tori applies. By practising in this way, Tori should develop the ability to perform techniques instantaneously without a moments thought and should learn how to go from doing one waza to another freely without constraints.

2) Hikitategeiko

Hikitategeiko is considered a level up from Kakarigeiko. In Hikitategeiko the Uke should only do Ukemis (breakfalls) for those Waza which he thinks that Tori executed properly and effectively. If Tori's Waza was ineffective then he shouldn't do Ukemi but should wait for Tori to do another more proper and effective technique. In this way Tori should learn to be able to a) Do more effective Waza and b) transfer from doing one Waza to another immediately (especially if the first Waza is proving ineffective). Uke may change the speed of Tanto strikes, include feints and sometimes change his reactions to Tori's Waza. In this way Uke helps Tori to improve.

3) Randorigeiko

Now there is no longer a Tori and an Uke (because an Uke by definition is a person on whom Tori is allowed to practice his technique and who does a breakfall for Tori's technique) but rather a person holding a rubber knife and one who is not. The person holding the Tanto (rubber knife) is allowed to freely attack the other person's body areas, as stipulated in the rules, and is also allowed to freely resist the Waza (techniques) that the other person is trying to apply. Aside from adding a feeling of reality this should allow both parties to polish up the all-round abilities that they have acquired through basic practice, Kakarigeiko and Hikitategeiko. Here "all-round abilities" means Mind, Technique and Body. It is important to stress that Aikido is not meant to depend on one's physical strength but rather on posture, timing, avoidance, etc.

Once someone has been thoroughly exposed to Randorigeiko they will be able to take part in a Randori Shiai (competition). However please remember that Randorigeiko is NOT the same as a Randori Shiai. For those who have no interest in taking part in Randori competitions it is still strongly recommended that they make good use of the above three methods of training as a way to test themselves and increase their abilities.

Jim23 m(_ _)m

[Edited by Jim23 on February 13, 2001 at 05:46pm]
Anyway, I agree with the RandoriGeiko somewhat, but I do not agree with the shiai part. I do not believe in competition, but I do believe in paying attention to detail in what the sensei is teaching, and to being a sincere uke to help Nage develop his/her technique, and paying attention to Uke's attacks as well as what I am doing as Nage to help develop my own technique. (My sensei says uke should always be trying to attack Nage THROUGHOUT the technique) Uke still has to protect himself also, so too much resistance is not wise. Remember, Nage does not learn aikido at Uke's expense. Both are learning to protect oneself at the same time, therefore, competition is useless and only hinders one's aikido training. Just my opinion.

C. Martin

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Old 02-14-2001, 08:26 AM   #52
Steve Speicher
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Smile Answer to Original Question

Aikido is a Way. (do = way) Aiki-jitsu would be an art. I'm taking the following from a book I'm currently reading (not a direct quote), but I agree with the author's assessment.

Basically, the 'jitsu's are martial arts. Their highest ideal is combat effectiveness and development of technique towards that end. The 'do's are martial ways. They are based off of the form and technique of their 'jitsu' counterpart, but have one or more esoteric 'higher' ideals that the practitioner strives for. These ideals are different depending what Way one chooses to follow. Per aikido specifically, there are many higher ideals that O Sensei has stressed and incorporated into his martial way.

Well that's my take on it at least.
Martial Art = effective combat technique
Martial Way = striving towards higher ideals while developing combat technique

-----------------------------
Steve Speicher
May I ask what is meant by the strong, moving power (hao jan chih chi)? "It
is difficult to describe," Mencius replied. -- Mencius IIA2

403-256 BCE
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Old 02-14-2001, 08:49 AM   #53
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"Aikido wa budo de aru" This is a quote of the creater of the art. Guess what it means. " Aikido is a martial art "

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 02-14-2001, 09:39 AM   #54
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I understand what you've said, but these are also DOs: Kendo, Judo, Karatedo, Hapkido, Taekwondo, Kyudo, etc.

I'm sure that most people who practice the above, claim to be climbing the same mountain and they all hope to reach the same summit.

Jim23 m(_ _)m

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Old 02-14-2001, 09:47 AM   #55
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Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
"Aikido wa budo de aru" This is a quote of the creater of the art. Guess what it means. " Aikido is a martial art "
i dont think that is a correct translation as Budo does not mean Martial Art, at least not in Japanese.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-14-2001, 04:23 PM   #56
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Quote:
Dan Hover wrote:
Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
"Aikido wa budo de aru" This is a quote of the creater of the art. Guess what it means. " Aikido is a martial art "
i dont think that is a correct translation as Budo does not mean Martial Art, at least not in Japanese.
If you mean that "budo" doesn't mean "martial art" in the sense that "budo" doesn't mean "art of Mars" (as in the Roman god of war) then you're correct :-). In normal Japanese usage, however, "budo" is used pretty much the way that "martial art" is used in English, and "martial art" is a fairly standard and accepted translation for the word "budo".

Best,

Chris
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Old 02-14-2001, 04:38 PM   #57
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I agree... I've gotten some odd looks saying "Martial Way"...

Nick

---
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Old 02-15-2001, 03:55 AM   #58
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yes you two are both right the we usually use the word Budo to mean martial arts, but that doesnt make it correct. In fact if you read up on the meaning of Bu and Satome has written an excellent essay on it, in the principles of Aikido. He is quite adamant about the common misusage of the term. What we find comfortable and easy to say doesnt denote correctness. we take the hard left instead of the easy right, and this is why we train to begin with. To make the sacrifices that go with living a martial way, a "do" form. Like I said it is more common to say budo and mean Martial arts, but budo is so much more.

Dan Hover

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Old 02-15-2001, 05:23 AM   #59
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Quote:
Dan Hover wrote:
yes you two are both right the we usually use the word Budo to mean martial arts, but that doesnt make it correct. In fact if you read up on the meaning of Bu and Satome has written an excellent essay on it, in the principles of Aikido. He is quite adamant about the common misusage of the term. What we find comfortable and easy to say doesnt denote correctness. we take the hard left instead of the easy right, and this is why we train to begin with. To make the sacrifices that go with living a martial way, a "do" form. Like I said it is more common to say budo and mean Martial arts, but budo is so much more.
I've read his essay, and in the sense that he's explaining Morihei Ueshiba's vision of "budo" it's quite interesting, but this is essentially a modern vision, and one that is specific to Aikido and a few of the other modern Japanese arts. In the historical sense of the term "budo" he's somewhat more off base.

His reading of the kanji "budo" as "stopping the spear" is largely metaphorical and is, in the literal sense, just wrong. The character reading "stop" actually meant, originally, "to proceed forward" (which is why that radical is used in so many kanji that refer to feet or actions with the feet). Therefore the original meaning of "bu" would be something more like "advance with a spear" (actually more of a halberd), which sounds like a pretty good description of war to me. If you think about the meaning in that way it makes a lot of sense, as the character was originally created in times where the only instance of "stopping the spear" would be if you stopped it in the belly of your enemy.

In any case, the whole "do"/"jutsu" thing was more or less exagerrated by Donn Draeger - most Japanese (even Japanese martial artists) will just give you blank stares if you ask them about the differences. It really started when Jigoro Kano started using it for "Judo" (it was already in use in other arts, but he probably put it over the top), but his reasons for doing so were really quite practical and basically involved a desire to distinguish his martial art from the rest of the pack.

Best,

Chris
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Old 02-15-2001, 07:56 AM   #60
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more or less exaggerrated by Draeger??? that is a pretty bold statement considering just about everything we know about Koryu and the martial culture is largely owed to the path he had created and paved for us. And stumping a Japanese on the question of the difference between Budo/jutsu is about as easy as stumping someone on their own culture especially today is largely a moot point, as in most modern societies (america) being one of them we are largely ignorant of our culture and our beliefs until we are taken out of them. Much like a religious convert usually knows more about their religion than a native practioner. It is easy to take a critcal view of Draeger now, because we as a Martial arts culture are practicing and resting on the very legacy he paved the way for us, and most not all, are igorant of his contributions to the study and the research he and others have done for us, Ellis Amdur, Miek and Diane Skoss, Larry E. Bieri, Quintan Chambers, Dave Lowry these are all Martial artists we owe a debt to.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-15-2001, 10:07 AM   #61
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Red face

Thank you for saying that Dan, I totally agree with you. Regarding the translation of "budo", I think anyone is going to be hard pressed to be able to make a direct, linear translation of the term into English. As is common in many language barriers, there is simply no term in the English language which will capture the precise meaning of "budo". Just like trying to translate "ki", "mai" or "zenshin". You can scream into the wind as long and hard as you like, but some translations just aren't possible. This is one reason why the English language, like many others, is made up of a combination of words from other languages. I would propose we just accept terms like "budo" in their original tongue without attempting to distill their meanings down into two or three English words. IMHO.

Robert Cronin
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Old 02-15-2001, 10:45 AM   #62
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I have a question for those in the know.

Some people say that aikido is a martial ART, others say it's a WAY and to others it's both. And everyone is pretty firm in their opinion.

Whenever the topic of competition comes up (and I'm not suggesting it should be adopted in aikido), most people are against it because they consider aikido to be an ART, not a sport or game and that there are potentially dangerous techniques involved.

Am I correct in saying that many people would consider judo a sport and perhaps more of a WAY (lethal techniques removed)? However, competition is allowed.

I basically know what the difference is between a WAY and an ART, but I still find it pretty confusing regarding aikido.

Can anyone clarify this for me? Does any of this make any sense?

Jim23
m(_ _)m

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-15-2001, 11:11 AM   #63
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Am I correct in saying that many people would consider judo a sport and perhaps more of a WAY (lethal techniques removed)? However, competition is allowed.

Jim23
m(_ _)m
I disagree, Jim. I don't think that an absence of lethal techniques makes a martial art into a martial way. Although, if you are saying that Judo is a Martial Way with the lethal techniques removed (hard to tell between these two interpretations of your post), I still disagree with you - and not only because I think a Martial Way necessarily has lethal applications in its techni-con. These techniques aid in the development of the deep respect for life that is one of the hallmarks of a Martial Way.

Really, I think that a Martial Way is more about the cultivation of the whole person. In judo, my understanding is that BECAUSE of the competition, BECAUSE people were going to be attempting techniques pursuant to their goal of "winning," certain techniques had to be disallowed for the threat of permanent or extensive damage to the one being thrown.

From that I raise two points:
1) Notice that the goal of the participant has become "winning"; or, more plainly, something other than personal development.
2) Notice also that the sport has begun to dictate what is left of the art. The art is being distilled through the schema of sport

Which is not to say that Judo is "bad," but I do think that that sort of attitude and logic is incompatible with the goal of a Way. Perhaps earlier in its lifespan Judo was closer to a Way, but I do disagree with Jim that presently most people consider it a Way as well as a sport... and if people do, I think they are wrong. Everybody's wrong. Everybody.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-15-2001, 11:27 AM   #64
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Jim this is a very hard question to answer as budo like Judo, Karate-do even TKD can vary from school to school, in their dealings of whether or not they are competitive or not. There are a lot of schools in Judo that although emphasize "randori" they do not actively compete. There are also a lot of Karate schools that do not compete as they are trying to emphasize the martial discipline of their particular style. Aikido in the mainline traditions tend to not want to compete as in the classical arts competition was strictly frowned upon as a style or ryu was only as good as its weakest link, and competing really did not make the ryu stronger as a whole. The modern styles such as Judo, Kendo, Karate-do, and aikido also have had to suffer the allied ban on Martial practices at the end of the war. This can not be overstated as with the Loss of the war, Japanese viewed budo quite negatively as this reminded them of the military build up. So with the sporting aspect added, it attracted popular support and when the ban was lifted the sporting aspect almost insured survivability. It is a tough question, but it isnt so black and white as we think it can be.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-15-2001, 12:45 PM   #65
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It is a tough question.

I really do understand the difference between a way and an art, although I don't think that sparring makes that much of a difference (although I do get the point). When I say sparring, however, I'm not talking about competitive judo or karate tournaments where everyone wants to be number one - that's for the birds.

What was on my mind was the argument that I've often heard, ie. that there is no competition in aikido (except Tomiki) because it was wrong ... AND that the techniques were too dangerous anyway (sort of implying that aikido was more of a martial art).

And Dan you're right about different schools taking different approaches. Years ago I did judo (before switching to karate) and found the class to be very much into tradition and the "way" aspects, far more than some of the aikido schools that I've been to.

I can also recall my Taekwondo instructor telling me stories of running barefoot in the snow and climbing mountains (Dung San) in Korea in order to nourish the spirit, build tenacity and "indomitable spirit".

It sure ain't black or white.

Jim23
m(_ _)m

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-15-2001, 02:04 PM   #66
BC
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Years ago I did judo (before switching to karate) and found the class to be very much into tradition and the "way" aspects, far more than some of the aikido schools that I've been to.
Jim23:

I'm just curious. Does this mean you've decided to start practicing aikido instead of jujutsu?

Robert Cronin
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Old 02-15-2001, 02:32 PM   #67
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Quote:
BC wrote:

I'm just curious. Does this mean you've decided to start practicing aikido instead of jujutsu?
m(_ _)m

Yes, I never really considered ju-jitsu although I was very impressed with the class I saw (it wasn't BJJ, it was in many ways very similiar to aikido, but it also incorporated kicks, punches, sparring [boxing/kicking with protection, but I didn't get a chance to see any], etc.). What actually happened was that I went to look at an aikido class and there was also a ju-jitsu class in the same building the next night, so I watched them both.

The real reason I chose not take the ju-jitsu was the fact that the students and teacher were TOO fit and a bit rough. They did almost an hour of circuit training (not weights) before the stretching and techniques. Blew my mind! Teenage girls through to guys in their forties.

However, in contrast, the aikido classes were far at the opposite end of the spectrum. I've trained in the martial arts (ways?) long enough, with excellent teachers, to know a bad class when I see one, regardless of style.

That's why I started that thread.

Jim23

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Old 02-15-2001, 04:24 PM   #68
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Quote:
Dan Hover wrote:
more or less exaggerrated by Draeger??? that is a pretty bold statement considering just about everything we know about Koryu and the martial culture is largely owed to the path he had created and paved for us.
I wasn't belittling his accomplishments, I was saying that his his use of the do/jutsu classification was exagerrated. Just because someone accomplishes a great many things or was the first to accomplish something doesn't mean that they can't be wrong about something.

Quote:
And stumping a Japanese on the question of the difference between Budo/jutsu is about as easy as stumping someone on their own culture especially today is largely a moot point, as in most modern societies (america) being one of them we are largely ignorant of our culture and our beliefs until we are taken out of them.
Well, I'm not just talking about your average Japanese person, but about experienced Japanese martial artists, even those in traditional lineages. Western martial artists, primarily because of Donn Draeger's influence, tend to make a very clear disticinction between "jutsu" and "do". For Japanese martial artists (most of whom have probably never heard of Donn Draeger) the difference is much less clearly defined.

Quote:
It is easy to take a critcal view of Draeger now, because we as a Martial arts culture are practicing and resting on the very legacy he paved the way for us, and most not all, are igorant of his contributions to the study and the research he and others have done for us, Ellis Amdur, Miek and Diane Skoss, Larry E. Bieri, Quintan Chambers, Dave Lowry these are all Martial artists we owe a debt to.
Certainly we do. But just because we owe a debt to, for example, Issac Newton, doesn't mean that physics ends with his theories, or that he was correct on all fronts.

Best,

Chris
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Old 02-16-2001, 09:21 AM   #69
Aikilove
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Thumbs down

Hi Dan! As people have said already, When O-sensei made that statement I believe it was to answer a question if aikido was a budo/bujutsu or something else. And he said it indeed was budo. Then how to define budo is not something I'm the best man to do. But in my mind O-sensei wanted to clarify that Aikido is a WAY of perform martial ART

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 02-17-2001, 01:51 PM   #70
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[quote]Chris Li wrote:
Quote:


His reading of the kanji "budo" as "stopping the spear" is largely metaphorical and is, in the literal sense, just wrong. The character reading "stop" actually meant, originally, "to proceed forward" (which is why that radical is used in so many kanji that refer to feet or actions with the feet). Therefore the original meaning of "bu" would be something more like "advance with a spear" (actually more of a halberd), which sounds like a pretty good description of war to me. If you think about the meaning in that way it makes a lot of sense, as the character was originally created in times where the only instance of "stopping the spear" would be if you stopped it in the belly of your enemy.

Best,

Chris
Okay I thought about this one for awhile, and so I did some checking the character of Bu for those of you who dont know is made up of two Kanji, the character on the inside is TOMERU meaning to prevent, the character on the outside HOKO meaning conflict. This is how Saotome a Native Japanese person has written about it in His "Principles of Aikido" book, in which Chris says is "just wrong" So I checked with another Native Japanese person Masayuki Shimabukuro an iaido teacher who also says the same as above in regards to the two characters. Then I checked with John Stevens, Author, Interpertor/ Translator and budoka, Larry E. Bieri Author, Interpeter/Translator, budoka, Donn F. Draeger, who we all know about, and I also checked an English Japanese Dictionary. Which States that TOMERU the character that you are referring to as SHI which is indeed a pictograph of a foot, means a Planted Foot, as in stopped. Now SHI means stopped and TOMERU means prevent, and HOKO means conflict. So I am at a loss on how two Native Japanese speakers, three interpetors/Translators, all highly regarded budoka in their own right and a english Japanese Kanji Dictionary can all be "just wrong". I have included the link to the Kanji page for those of you who want to check. http://www.joyo96.org/cgi-bin/henshall.pl?hen=129

Although the character in DO or MICHI has the same deriviative form (ashi) for foot or movement as this is a pictograph of an ankle and foot from the side. The character DO means way or path of, and this would make sense to have the radical for movement inside the character for Way or Path of. Or am I "just Wrong"?

Dan Hover

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Old 02-17-2001, 05:34 PM   #71
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[quote]Dan Hover wrote:
Quote:
Chris Li wrote:
Quote:


His reading of the kanji "budo" as "stopping the spear" is largely metaphorical and is, in the literal sense, just wrong. The character reading "stop" actually meant, originally, "to proceed forward" (which is why that radical is used in so many kanji that refer to feet or actions with the feet). Therefore the original meaning of "bu" would be something more like "advance with a spear" (actually more of a halberd), which sounds like a pretty good description of war to me. If you think about the meaning in that way it makes a lot of sense, as the character was originally created in times where the only instance of "stopping the spear" would be if you stopped it in the belly of your enemy.

Best,

Chris
Okay I thought about this one for awhile, and so I did some checking the character of Bu for those of you who dont know is made up of two Kanji, the character on the inside is TOMERU meaning to prevent, the character on the outside HOKO meaning conflict.
Well, this radical ("hoko") is used in kanji referring to conflicts, but the original meaning is "spear" (actually referring to a very old chinese weapon with a double edged blade).

Quote:
This is how Saotome a Native Japanese person has written about it in His "Principles of Aikido" book, in which Chris says is "just wrong" So I checked with another Native Japanese person Masayuki Shimabukuro an iaido teacher who also says the same as above in regards to the two characters. Then I checked with John Stevens, Author, Interpertor/ Translator and budoka, Larry E. Bieri Author, Interpeter/Translator, budoka, Donn F. Draeger, who we all know about, and I also checked an English Japanese Dictionary. Which States that TOMERU the character that you are referring to as SHI which is indeed a pictograph of a foot, means a Planted Foot, as in stopped. Now SHI means stopped and TOMERU means prevent, and HOKO means conflict. So I am at a loss on how two Native Japanese speakers, three interpetors/Translators, all highly regarded budoka in their own right and a english Japanese Kanji Dictionary can all be "just wrong". I have included the link to the Kanji page for those of you who want to check. http://www.joyo96.org/cgi-bin/henshall.pl?hen=129
I haven't been around as long as those guys, but I've been a professional translator for over 5 years, and lived and worked in Japan (and in Japanese) for twice that.

There's a pretty good article covering just this topic in a back issue of Aikido Today Magazine written by Kazuaki Tanahashi - a student of Morihei Ueshiba, calligrapher, and one of the translators of 2-dai doshu's original "Aikido".

To make a long story short, the meaning that you see in the dictionary is the modern usage (another modern usage is "kill", by the way). The original usage (when the character was originally created) was as I stated originally.

"Shi" and "tomeru" are different readings for the same character.

Mitsugi Saotome's translation of the word is "wrong" in that (as I said originally) that it is not a literal transposition of the meaning of the characters. What he (and others) are talking about is an "interpretation" of the characters which is something slightly different, and is something that Japanese people love to do. What I was talking about was the literal meaning of the character, which was created in China and really had nothing to do with resolving conflict (unless it was resolved at the point of a sword).

Quote:
Although the character in DO or MICHI has the same deriviative form (ashi) for foot or movement as this is a pictograph of an ankle and foot from the side. The character DO means way or path of, and this would make sense to have the radical for movement inside the character for Way or Path of. Or am I "just Wrong"?
Well, I'm not sure how this is related to the discussion above, but "do" is composed of "shinyo", which means "advance" and "kubi", which means "neck". In this case the character for "kubi" is signifying something that is long and narrow (ie, a road). So, "do" would mean "movement along something long and narrow", which signifies a road.

Best,

Chris


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