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Old 02-10-2001, 12:52 AM   #26
shadow
Dojo: Aiki Kun Ren (Iwama style)
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ahhhh just stop your bickering all of you! it's unbecoming and it's not the kind of maturity level I would expect from any long term martial artists!

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 02-10-2001, 01:03 AM   #27
wildaikido
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sceptoor is right (see his first post) it is both a way and an art, it all depends on the context in which you want to discuss aikido.

Graham Wild
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Old 02-10-2001, 11:20 AM   #28
Jim23
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Please find where I suggested that there should be sparring in aikido, I can't.

Someone even suggested that I only want to be a black belt in aikido and that my first question to my sensi was how long it would take me.

I agree with shadow, enough of this.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-10-2001, 05:48 PM   #29
sceptoor
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Please find where I suggested that there should be sparring in aikido, I can't.

Someone even suggested that I only want to be a black belt in aikido and that my first question to my sensi was how long it would take me.

I agree with shadow, enough of this.

Jim23
Right here--

Quote:
My opinion is that a little sparring (even with restrictions) would wake a few people up and make them better prepared to deal a real physical confrontation.

That way thay get to experience/learn both sides.

It's a bit like your boxing (but different), you get to understand if your punch has any effect on your opponent and just how strong or weak people are.

If you try to throw someone much stronger or quicker, who is resisting, you'll quickly find out if your technique works and what technique works for you.

It only makes sense to me. But let's not brawl.

Jim23
and I believe you are referring to this section of one of my earlier posts;

Quote:
You are the epitome of the sadly common guy that waltzes into a dojo (of any art)and asks questions like "how long till I get my black belt??", and/or challenges the sensei by saying "Well, I train in (insert favorite MA here) and blah, blah, blah". All of your posts seem to be a part of some sort of self appointed mission to enlighten us with "why we shouldn't train in Aikido and should train in Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Hapkido, Law enforcement tactics, Tai Chi, Tae Kwon Do, yada, yada, yada"
It looks like someone is twisting my words around. You are a victim of denial. It looks as though you blame others for possessing your own faults, then tell them to look into a mirror. Well, your mirror has betrayed you.

C. Martin

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Old 02-10-2001, 06:22 PM   #30
Jim23
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[quote]sceptoor wrote:
[b]
Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
Please find where I suggested that there should be sparring in aikido, I can't.

Jim23
Right here--

Quote:
My opinion is that a little sparring (even with restrictions) would wake a few people up and make them better prepared to deal a real physical confrontation.

That way thay get to experience/learn both sides.

It's a bit like your boxing (but different), you get to understand if your punch has any effect on your opponent and just how strong or weak people are.

If you try to throw someone much stronger or quicker, who is resisting, you'll quickly find out if your technique works and what technique works for you.

It only makes sense to me. But let's not brawl.

Jim23
Again, I still stand by what I said, but I didn't say that aikido should include sparring or be changed to suit me, why would I say that?. I said that practicing for real attackers should involve sparring to understand what it feels like to hit and be hit (again, do I need to explain what I don't mean here? There's a lot that I don't mean by that). Many have agreed on that point - maybe you don't, but that's your opinion.

I have a friend who is a 4th dan aikidoka who trains in ju-juitsu to round out his training. Lots of respect for the guy. He's concerned about a fight going to the ground, but he's not changing aikido, he's sparring in BJJ.

I went back and looked at my previous posts and, sure, at times I've been blunt or flip, but usually after a silly comment or when someone completely misreading a post. A snide remark here and there, sure (we're all adults here), but what I haven't done is been as rude or insulting as some of the comments directed at me. Personnaly, I don't give a darn. Those things don't anger me, but I do find them immature and frustrating.

And Chris, by ending with what you said, it appears that you want this "debate" to continue. You're seem to be the one prodding at me for a response.

Enough.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-11-2001, 12:01 AM   #31
sceptoor
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I'll tell you what. I'll end this "debate" if you want, just as long as you know that your belittling remarks will not go unanswered. Believe it or not, I do agree with some of your points, I just highly disagree with other points you make, AND the manner in which you make them. I'm not trying to start a fight, it is not my nature. I just get fed up like any other human being. (Who knows, you and I just might become good friends one day, the aikido "circle" is rather small, and we could end up training together in a seminar if you ever manage to try it one day) My point to this whole thing is not to "sell" you on Aikido, it is only to defend the aikidoka's american right to choose to train in whatever and however many MA's he/she wants to. However inneffective, or unrealistic Aikido might seem to be in your opinion, the truth is that all other MA's also have those "flaws". Cross training in my opinion is a good idea, but sparring or any other form of competition is not. Like I said before, my "parent" dojo has annual cross training seminars, the first one was apparently a success(I unfortunately missed it), and I plan on attending the next one. Exchanging ideas to improve technique is good, it's called evolution, but the idea of sparring to prove "who's MA is better or weaker" is ridiculous. Peace.

C. Martin

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Old 02-11-2001, 08:28 AM   #32
Jim23
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
However inneffective, or unrealistic Aikido might seem to be in your opinion, the truth is that all other MA's also have those "flaws".

... but the idea of sparring to prove "who's MA is better or weaker" is ridiculous. Peace.
You're still reading too much into what I've said in trying to prove your point.

I agree with your statement that all martial arts have flaws, who would disagree with that? But why are you still saying that in my opinion aikido is inneffective or unrealistic? If I'm critical about some aspect of aikido (eg. the fittness level of a class or whatever), or show another opinion, does that say that I feel it is inneffective? Of course not. I hope you're not saying that people shouldn't have an opinion or dare be critical of an aspect of aikido.

I agree that the idea of sparring to prove "who's MA is better or weaker" is ridiculous. Something I also never said. Peace.

Jim23


[Edited by Jim23 on February 11, 2001 at 07:30am]

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-11-2001, 11:14 AM   #33
sceptoor
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Ok, are you now implying that I think people shouldn't have opinions or dare criticize aikido?? Of course I don't. That would imply that I had a closed mind. First of all, I would say you would HAVE to have an open mind if you practice aikido, otherwise, one would never get past the first day. The many subjects I read about on a daily basis would not peak the interest of a skeptic or closed minded person at all.

As far as this;

Quote:
But why are you still saying that in my opinion aikido is inneffective or unrealistic? If I'm critical about some aspect of aikido (eg. the fittness level of a class or whatever), or show another opinion, does that say that I feel it is inneffective?
I really don't have the time to search through all of your posts to "cut and paste" every statement you've made regarding Aikido and it's ineffectiveness and/or the "poor fitness level" of the typical Aikidoka. I find it uneccessary to have to do that just to prove my point, but you know those statements are there just the same. Anyway, who's perpetuating this debate now?? Peace.

C. Martin

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Old 02-11-2001, 12:27 PM   #34
Dan Hover
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Quote:
Matthieu wrote:
Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraï.
Feel free to debate!
ummm, seeing you are free to debate aikijutsu was not the martial art used by Samurai.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-11-2001, 12:49 PM   #35
Jim23
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This is going nowhere.

We both want to have the last word and not listen to the other side. Agree?

I know that you don't want to understand my view and franky, I'm getting tired of yours.

Let's just agree to disagree (if that's what we've done), pick up our toys and move on.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-11-2001, 05:22 PM   #36
sceptoor
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
This is going nowhere.

I know that you don't want to understand my view and franky, I'm getting tired of yours.

Let's just agree to disagree (if that's what we've done), pick up our toys and move on.

Jim23
I do understand your point of view, and if I don't, then help me understand it without your resorting to personal attacks. Understanding and agreeing are two different things. I understand you were looking to find answers about Aikido. I understand you found them, didn't like them, and then began condescending it. I understand that the kendo/kenjitsu/taijitsu(sword and empty-hand) relationship in aikido, the importance of ukemi during training, the "stepping off line" and the "redirection vs. blocking" philosophy confuses you enough to think that aikidoka should "open up our minds" to other MA's because the "attacks" in aikido are generally weak and unrealistic as opposed to the incredibly realistic Karate punches and kicks. I understand that you favor MA's that regularly compete and/or spar, which means you associate MA's with SPORT, not budo, and that a MA which doesn't participate in the SPORT attitude(such as Aikido) is simply ineffective and maybe even misleading to people who choose to practice Aikido. I just don't necessarily AGREE with you. What I DON'T understand is why you feel you're such an authority in Aikido when you've never even actually participated in a class and/or the fact that you're still lingering around telling us general things we already know and agree with, and even better, enlightening us with your infinite wisdom of the martial arts. And Jim, don't call me Franky.

C. Martin

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Old 02-11-2001, 06:28 PM   #37
Jim23
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First of all, I'm actually surprised and pleased to find that you have a sense of humor. Because Franky, you were starting to lose credibility with me (I know that you don't like when I am critical of you, but you are pretty good at it dishing it out yourself). Even as I became more and more cautious with the wording of my posts, you still had to find a word or two to misinterpret and take issue with.

There's a lot of what you still say about me that's completely wrong, and I mean no offence by that (should I even need to say that) and I take no offence either - usually.

You are always saying that you understand me and I don't understand you. You also keep saying that I resort to personal attacks and you don't. You seem to have me figured out, but you are wrong on most counts. Give me a little credit here and stop making statements that you THINK are true, regardless of your reasons. I'm not a stupid as you might think and please don't make assumptions about me (ASSUME: to make an ASS out of U and ME) Still have that sense of humor?

And I'm not as confused about aikido as you might think. But I do see things and I have made comments. Let me give you an example. Suppose, for example, I saw good technique in a class and commented that it was good. No problem and really no reason to comment - why preach to the converted? But what if the opposite happened, lets say someone got hurt, or the instructor was huffing and puffing, or whatever? More of a reason to voice an opinion. BTW I also have views on karate: a lot of it is pretty silly and impractical (IMHO), but no reason to say that here.

All along you've been trying to straighten me out and I have been trying to straighten you out (meaning mostly regarding misinterpretations). We're all adults here so let's take each other's comments at face value. If you like or dislike something, just say it.

I think you kinda like these posts, or is that an assumption?

Jim23



Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-11-2001, 06:38 PM   #38
Dan Hover
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Man oh man, I can feel the sexual tension between you two, you can cut it with a knife

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-11-2001, 06:45 PM   #39
Jim23
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Ha!

Don't say that. You're making me nervous.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-12-2001, 12:16 AM   #40
sceptoor
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Quote:
Dan Hover wrote:
Man oh man, I can feel the sexual tension between you two, you can cut it with a knife
Now THAT'S funny. Let's not bring sexual fantasies in here please. C'mon Dan, we were just having a little debate. Jim seems to be an all right guy, just a little confused, heh heh.

Jim, I'll be a little less critical of what you say from now on, a'ite?? But being critical of Aikido in an Aikido forum is like walking into Raymond James stadium wearing a Viking or Packer jersey. It's kind of bold, eh??


C. Martin

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Old 02-12-2001, 06:16 AM   #41
Kenn
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But being critical of Aikido in an Aikido forum is like walking into Raymond James stadium wearing a Viking or Packer jersey. It's kind of bold, eh??

[/b][/quote]

lol, Not a problem for me, I'm from Chicago originally and wear a BEARS jersey to every BEARS/bucs game at ray jay every year.

and you're right, Jim is an alright guy, reminds me of myself in the religous chat rooms, he just likes to stir things up, but not just for the sake of it. He uses (sometimes) valid points and puts them in a way that is sure to get a rise out of some people is all.

Jim, you're alright by me, even if you are wrong on many occasions. (notice the attempt to "rile" up Jim...lol)

Peace all,
Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 02-12-2001, 07:14 AM   #42
Jim23
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Sex, religion and aikido all in one thread - now we need to discuss hanging chads! Maybe not.

Thanks Kenn, BTW, all I feel now is harmony.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-12-2001, 08:58 AM   #43
Matthieu
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Samouraï MA's...

Quote:
Dan Hover wrote:
Quote:
Matthieu wrote:
Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraï.
Feel free to debate!
ummm, seeing you are free to debate aikijutsu was not the martial art used by Samurai.
Now this is Matthieu

Hey Dan, can you tell us then what martial arts did Samouraï trained in for? It would seem that your knowledge is quite exhaustive on the subject.
I am sure that every one could benefit from these kinds of information.

When you learn to love hell, you will be in heaven
-Golas
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Old 02-12-2001, 09:04 AM   #44
ian
 
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This is a story by Chuang Tzu...

A man was crossing a river in the fog when he saw a boat heading straight towards him. He shouted for the pilot to move out of the way, but the boat kept a straight line, heading towards him. As the boat approached he shouted louder and louder and became more and more angry, then at the last moment he had to steer around the other boat himself. As the boat passed he turned to shout at the man at the oars, but then he realised it was empty and just floating around, at which point all his anger dissapated.

Ian
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Old 02-12-2001, 09:59 AM   #45
sceptoor
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Heh, heh, so who is the empty boat??(metaphorically)

C. Martin

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Old 02-12-2001, 12:49 PM   #46
DiNalt
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
Heh, heh, so who is the empty boat??(metaphorically)
The empty boat is the brainless idiot who attacks you.

So when you realize there's just wind in his head, you don't get so frightened/angered because you know where he is coming from - sheer idiocy.

Or I could be wrong
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Old 02-12-2001, 02:03 PM   #47
Dan Hover
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Re: Samouraï MA's...

Quote:
Matthieu wrote:
Quote:
Dan Hover wrote:
Quote:
Matthieu wrote:
Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraï.
Feel free to debate!
ummm, seeing you are free to debate aikijutsu was not the martial art used by Samurai.
Now this is Matthieu

Hey Dan, can you tell us then what martial arts did Samouraï trained in for? It would seem that your knowledge is quite exhaustive on the subject.
I am sure that every one could benefit from these kinds of information.
I would be more than happy too. The term Aiki has been used quite liberally throughout the koryu Bujutsu legacy. Often as the term "Aiki inyo ho" which is similiar to the concept of JU no Ri, the principle of being Soft. Anyhow, the samurai did not practice empty hand arts like jujutsu as a rule, their main art was a weapon art, their complementary art was another weapon art, after that another weapon art and so on. The grappling art that they did do was like Yoroi Kumiuchi, which dealt dealing with an armed, armor clad warrior. The art handed down to us from the Aizu warriors was called oshikiuchi which was a generic term used for thier secondary systems of hand to hand combat. Takeda Sokaku had studied sword extensively before any training in Jujutsu, He was proficient in Ono-ha Itto Ryu Heiho and Jikishinkage ryu. Daido ryu of the Aizu clan (not to be confused with Daito ryu) was a sogu budo that had stressed Tojutsu, Kyuba, sojutsu, and Kajutsu, the Aizu clan members also studied iaijutsu of the Mizuno Shinto ryu. Furthermore Saigo Tonomo was the head of the Daido clan, he had hired Takeda as his personal bodyguard. And it wasnt until after Takeda's famed encounter with the construction workers that Takeda started his education in Jujutsu, at the urging of Saigo in 1898, some 17 years after the aforementioned incident. I hope this answers your question. And clarifies your question on how full of crap I am.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 02-12-2001, 04:49 PM   #48
sceptoor
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Quote:
DiNalt wrote:
Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
Heh, heh, so who is the empty boat??(metaphorically)
The empty boat is the brainless idiot who attacks you.

So when you realize there's just wind in his head, you don't get so frightened/angered because you know where he is coming from - sheer idiocy.

Or I could be wrong

I understood that much, I meant which one of us, Jim or I, was the metaphorical "empty boat" in your story. But, nevermind, I may not want to know.

C. Martin

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Old 02-13-2001, 07:47 AM   #49
ian
 
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I think sometimes these things are best not explained, but as far as I am aware everyone is the empty boat.

The idea is that you don't have to get angry at anybody just because they are not doing what you want, everyone is part of the ebb and flow in this single unified universe.

Ian
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Old 02-13-2001, 06:42 PM   #50
Jim23
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:

I understood that much, I meant which one of us, Jim or I
Chris, don't worry about it. m(_ _)m

Hey Chris (Sceptoor - what the heck does that mean anyway? )

Got a question for you regarding sparring in Aikido. I've been doing some research and came across this, which you've possibly seen. It's to do with Tomiki Aikido (which everyone knows about, obviously).

I'm not trying to suggest that anyone adopt this, but it was on an Aikido site and I was wondering what you thought about it (couldn't bother to start a new thread either as I don't want to see my name in "lights").

Your thoughts please (I also have a question on different styles of Aikido, but that can wait for now).

--------

First and foremost Randori does not mean Shiai (match or game). The original name for Randori was Midaregeiko. The 'Ran' of Randori is the same Japanese Kanji character as the 'Midare' of Midaregeiko.

The practice is by no means easy and shouldn't be entered into in a flippant manner. Those who don't want to take part in an actual Shiai (competition) can still forge the techniques that they learned in Kata by doing Randorigeiko. There are three levels of Randorigeiko which you can choose from to best suit your level, age, physical condition, etc.

1) Kakarigeiko

In Kakarigeiko the Kata techniques of ordinary practice are put into use. There is still a Tori and an Uke. The Tori can apply techniques in any order he sees fit to cope with uke's mock attacks. There is no need to stick to a certain routine as in Kata practice. The Uke puts up no resistance and should quickly do whatever ukemi is suitable for the technique that Tori applies. By practising in this way, Tori should develop the ability to perform techniques instantaneously without a moments thought and should learn how to go from doing one waza to another freely without constraints.

2) Hikitategeiko

Hikitategeiko is considered a level up from Kakarigeiko. In Hikitategeiko the Uke should only do Ukemis (breakfalls) for those Waza which he thinks that Tori executed properly and effectively. If Tori's Waza was ineffective then he shouldn't do Ukemi but should wait for Tori to do another more proper and effective technique. In this way Tori should learn to be able to a) Do more effective Waza and b) transfer from doing one Waza to another immediately (especially if the first Waza is proving ineffective). Uke may change the speed of Tanto strikes, include feints and sometimes change his reactions to Tori's Waza. In this way Uke helps Tori to improve.

3) Randorigeiko

Now there is no longer a Tori and an Uke (because an Uke by definition is a person on whom Tori is allowed to practice his technique and who does a breakfall for Tori's technique) but rather a person holding a rubber knife and one who is not. The person holding the Tanto (rubber knife) is allowed to freely attack the other person's body areas, as stipulated in the rules, and is also allowed to freely resist the Waza (techniques) that the other person is trying to apply. Aside from adding a feeling of reality this should allow both parties to polish up the all-round abilities that they have acquired through basic practice, Kakarigeiko and Hikitategeiko. Here "all-round abilities" means Mind, Technique and Body. It is important to stress that Aikido is not meant to depend on one's physical strength but rather on posture, timing, avoidance, etc.

Once someone has been thoroughly exposed to Randorigeiko they will be able to take part in a Randori Shiai (competition). However please remember that Randorigeiko is NOT the same as a Randori Shiai. For those who have no interest in taking part in Randori competitions it is still strongly recommended that they make good use of the above three methods of training as a way to test themselves and increase their abilities.

Jim23 m(_ _)m

[Edited by Jim23 on February 13, 2001 at 05:46pm]

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