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Old 05-23-2004, 12:01 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
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Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 23, 2004:

Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.
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Old 05-23-2004, 07:51 AM   #2
Nacho_mx
Dojo: Federación Mexicana de Aikido
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Actually, nage initiates the technique EVERYTIME.
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Old 05-23-2004, 09:32 AM   #3
toranaga
Dojo: Aikido Praxis Club (RS)
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Yep!
I didn't understand where the question is trying to go!


"Paciência quer dizer conter-se. Existem sete emoções, neh? Alegria, ira, ansiedade, adoração, pesar, medo e ódio. Se um homem não cede a elas, é paciente."
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Old 05-23-2004, 11:19 AM   #4
GrazZ
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

think he means would nage attacking uke to initiate a tech go against your aikido philosophy
well as far as Yoshinkan goes its no, shomenuchi ikkyo irimi version shite strikes first and uke blocks, i remember think this was odd at first hehe
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Old 05-23-2004, 12:41 PM   #5
SeiserL
 
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

If by "initiating" you mean "intent", then "initiating" towards someone who had no "intent" of "initiating" towards me would go against my Aikido philosophy.

But, if I sense their "intent" to "initiate" and my timing is better because I beat them to the punch (pun intended), then its very congruent.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-23-2004, 01:39 PM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

I was just watching some old films of Hikitsuchi in which he emphasises repeatedly that one doesn't wait for an attack in Aikido. Nage initiates the movement (this is distinct from what Lynn mentioned about not initiating the agression).

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 05-23-2004, 03:30 PM   #7
Noel
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

There is a similar philosophy in iaido to what George says above. The thought is that there are three levels of proficiency. At the first stage, you are merely responding to a stimulus. In the second stage you are reading the intent and responding simultaneously. By the third stage, you cause (via demeanor, body language, etc.) tekki to attack (or not) in the way you want him/her to attack.

That's the theory, at least. Some day I might be capable of it, too.
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Old 05-23-2004, 05:34 PM   #8
aikidoc
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Hikitsuchi sensei's tapes show this as George says and I believe Iwama ryu does this as well. I think the point of question is the intent issue. If you know your are going to be attacked, then why wait for them to hit you first. Control the situation.
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Old 05-23-2004, 06:25 PM   #9
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Isn't that what atemi is for?

Jeanne
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Old 05-23-2004, 11:12 PM   #10
MaryKaye
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

I studied briefly at a dojo that taught techniques initiated by nage. I don't have a philosophical problem with it. I think even in places where they aren't taught, students work out for themselves what the attacking potential of their techniques is (I know my classmates and I did).

The first time I ran into it, though, I saw nage jumping me and threw him reflexively. He pointed out with some annoyance that he was nage, not me...but I retain a bit of pride about this, because it's the only time I've ever thrown someone who I'm completely sure didn't intend to be thrown.

It seems to me that initiating a technique is not necessarily initiating combat, as others have said: but I'd go further and say that there are scenarios in which I'd have no qualms about initiating combat. If someone had hold of my child....

Mary Kaye
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Old 05-24-2004, 12:24 AM   #11
Bronson
 
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
If you know your are going to be attacked, then why wait for them to hit you first.
Because on the video tape it looks like you started it...hard to claim self defense then

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-24-2004, 08:36 AM   #12
drDalek
 
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Is Aikido in general compatible with self-defence laws? If you try and keep some street urchin at arms length and they keep trying to intrude into your personal circle for whatever reason and you make it clear to them that you dont want them that close, is a solid atemi still self-defence in the eyes of the law?

Sure to you it made perfect sense at that moment, when you moved as far as you could, warned as loudly as you could and the attacker still pushed on towards you, eventually forcing you towards other shady-types or a wall but the fact that the attacker neither drew a weapon nor tried to strike you at that point makes it very hard to argue who was right and who was wrong.

I have a horrible feeling that the only self-defence that you could successfully argue would be the reactive kind of self defence where someone already punched you or is in the process of punching you and you react, pro-active self defence which seems to be the highest ideal of some martial arts dont have a solid footing in the courtroom.

Although, in class I would happily initiate the technique, but closing ma-ai as opposed to keeping it is not 100% in-line with my strategy (as opposed to philosophy) but strategy should be fluid and adaptive so why not.
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Old 05-24-2004, 10:07 AM   #13
rcoit
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Timing in aikido is a deep and subtle concept. O Sensai, so the story goes, understood inter-connectedness when he saw a flock of birds warning him of an ambush. Perhaps one should always be receptive to all cues and warnings, but overt action may be nage's sometimes.
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:54 AM   #14
Largo
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

I thought that the nage always initiated. Either by attacking, or by creating an opening that invites the uke to attack in a certain way.
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Old 05-25-2004, 04:57 AM   #15
ian
 
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Who responded 'yes'?

Sensetivity to the situation (zanshin?) I think is the most important aspect of aikido. Who initiates is maybe a philosophical question i.e. I think nage initiates the attack when uke shows intent. However even then, it doesn't necessarily have to be a strike, just contact. I think problems arise when nage is waiting for an attack and uke has intent and is closing the distance between them but has not yet struck - this is where nage's intiation should be most obvious.

Ian
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Old 05-25-2004, 10:57 AM   #16
Bronson
 
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

We have a saying in Seidokan "the correct and proper usage of ki". Not too much, not too little. Use what it necessary to achieve your goal. If socking him in the face first off is what was needed at the time...well then it fits.

This is entirely my take on it. My views should not be considered representative of my sensei or organization

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-27-2004, 12:36 AM   #17
Henri Bronsgeest
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

I see no one spoke of Saki ni (going beyond) Osensei spoke of this. It is the act of entering energetically and freeing up the attacking mind like hitting a rug on a line freeing the the dust that clutters the mind.
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Old 05-27-2004, 12:40 AM   #18
Henri Bronsgeest
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Quote:
Henri Bronsgeest wrote:
I see no one spoke of Saki ni (going beyond) Osensei spoke of this. It is the act of entering energetically and freeing up the attacking mind like hitting a rug on a line freeing the the dust that clutters the mind.
Enter into everything you do with an open heart and an empty mind.
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Old 05-27-2004, 06:25 AM   #19
Greg Jennings
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

I see no reason to limit my options to resolve conflict for the good of all involved.

FWIW,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-27-2004, 09:05 AM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: Would initiating a technique as nage go against your own aikido philosophy?

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
The first time I ran into it, though, I saw nage jumping me and threw him reflexively. He pointed out with some annoyance that he was nage, not me...but I retain a bit of pride about this, because it's the only time I've ever thrown someone who I'm completely sure didn't intend to be thrown.
Mary Kaye
Nage should have thanked you for showing him/her their openings...


Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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