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Old 09-16-2004, 03:45 PM   #51
kironin
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Of course imo, if they can take my 2 line explanation and assume that they know what it is and ask no more, then they either "already know what it is" or probably wouldn't have the patience to find out through training anyway. In either case it's all good, less waste of time and energy on both sides.
LC

granted. but you never really know.

now that I think about it,
that's why when someone asks about it, I prefer to invite them to come try a class. I tell them that is the best way.

I think I will drop making any explanation at all from now on.

Last edited by kironin : 09-16-2004 at 03:47 PM.

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Old 09-16-2004, 08:02 PM   #52
oudbruin
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Re: Steven Seagal

Steven seagal is like the samual adams of aikido- prior to his arival , there were only one or two "big" names in aikido. I have to admit I like the guy because we share the same birthday 4-10-51, and he has had the balls to do a lot of things most other people only dream of.
If that makes him a showboater, so what? He's not a bullshitter. He's the real deal.
Because of his films , you can talk about aikido in walla-walla or mahopic and chances are the person you've talked to has seen seagal sensai in a film. Prior to that you had no one showing aikido to john q . public. And what thanks does he get? he's been slamed and accused of being a fraud and worse. I've heard a couple Sensai state that he isn't doing aikido..
Well, I don't see those guys making films and bringing aikido to the public and showing the power of aikido.
I'm most likely going to catch heat for this opinion, but it's my two cents worth.
Bruce
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:39 PM   #53
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Re: Steven Seagal

I would have to agree with Bruce. The reason many of us get into AIkido is because of Steven Seagal. I mean the moves he does for TV looks great but that is what some call "movie fu".

Many people in the Aikido world put him down for his efforts but I say that isnt the real spirit of Aikido. I'd prefer to just work hard in the dojo and forget about politics (the reason I left Wing Chun). However I have watched the 'Path Beyond Thought' - which is a documentary about Steven Seagal's Aikido, granted I'm only a beginner in Aikido, but he still does some pretty good techniques, including Randori!

Well this is just my opinion and I hope we all can just go to the Dojo and forget about such nonesense.

Cheers everybody!
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Old 09-16-2004, 09:01 PM   #54
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Michael Cardwell wrote:
Perhaps I would, but wither I would or not does not matter. I'm sure that lots of people have sightly different ideas about what aikido is, and how to best practice it. Maybe you should go to the primary source, i.e. Osensei, watch all the video footage of him and read all of his writings, and then ask yourself if your idea of aikido closely resembles his. I should think that would matter to you. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Oddly enough joining the o'sensei cult doesn't interest me one bit.
My original sensei was a uchi deshi for Shioda kancho & tried to imitate him, until Shioda came to him 1 day & said "Why are you imitating an old man's aikido? You are young."

There's a great quote attributed to Chida sensei (that I'm about to butcher) in Angry White Pyjamas. The students told him they were shaving their heads to get them psyched for their impending grading: "You get your hair cut & think about training. Better to train & think about getting your hair cut."
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Old 09-16-2004, 11:07 PM   #55
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Michael Cardwell wrote:
Perhaps I would, but wither I would or not does not matter. I'm sure that lots of people have sightly different ideas about what aikido is, and how to best practice it. Maybe you should go to the primary source, i.e. Osensei, watch all the video footage of him and read all of his writings, and then ask yourself if your idea of aikido closely resembles his. I should think that would matter to you. Just my thoughts on the matter.
This is exactly my point. I've already stated on these forums that I am far less impressed by SS than some would like but the fact remains that he was dojo-cho of a Japanese dojo for 15 years. I would think that he would have a far greater idea of what Aikido is about than many. I'm also sure he's watched the footage of Ueshiba M. probably more diligently than I.

It's pretty well impossible for any of us to go to the source but some of us make a huge effort to get as close as we can and that is not a few pieces of celluloid. The physical side of Aikido depends heavily on the age and body type of the individual. SS does some reasonably good big man Aikido - it would be down right silly of him to try and become a kaiso clone.

His job in the movies is action star non Aikido teacher.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-17-2004, 02:00 AM   #56
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
It's pretty well impossible for any of us to go to the source but some of us make a huge effort to get as close as we can and that is not a few pieces of celluloid. The physical side of Aikido depends heavily on the age and body type of the individual. SS does some reasonably good big man Aikido - it would be down right silly of him to try and become a kaiso clone.

His job in the movies is action star not Aikido teacher.
exacto mundo!

Being about his height, I have no problems with his aikido. Some of his non-movie aikido randori that is caught on film is as good as it gets.

His movie career has rewarded him with wealth and fame. I think he will get by if some of us don't care for some things he has done or represents.

It's just a little sad that some are so willing to blow his part in aikido history so way out of proportion.

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Old 09-17-2004, 09:13 AM   #57
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Re: Steven Seagal

I remember many of my friends getting into martial arts because they saw "Enter the Dragon" or "5 Finger of Death". At that time it was all "kuroty" to them. Some of them have gone on and done quite well in various arts. If the name of SS gives someone something to identify with and gets them into the dojo, then maybe over time they will learn something more than what they saw him do on the screen.
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Old 09-17-2004, 09:41 AM   #58
Kevin Masters
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
The reason many of us get into AIkido is because of Steven Seagal. I mean the moves he does for TV looks great but that is what some call "movie fu".
It's kind of the same for me. I really don't like his movies. To me they're kinda dumb. I have fun watching them and laughing at the genre though. However, it was a Steven Segal interview in some MA magazine where I was first exposed to the idea of Aikido. I thought he was an interesting person and he really portrayed the art in a way that made me want to learn more about it.
Shortly after that I saw the Woodstock Aikido "Aikdo is not a Dog" demo and the rest is history.
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:12 PM   #59
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
exacto mundo!

Being about his height, I have no problems with his aikido. Some of his non-movie aikido randori that is caught on film is as good as it gets.

His movie career has rewarded him with wealth and fame. I think he will get by if some of us don't care for some things he has done or represents.

It's just a little sad that some are so willing to blow his part in aikido history so way out of proportion.

Craig,

Thanks for a more well balanced post. Yes, my last was completely off to one side. However, my purpose in posting it was not to make a statement about Tohei Sensei. I mean after all he certainly stands on his own, regardless of what I may think, say, or otherwise. I posted it as a balance to your previous post and others you have made along the way. Nothing personal...

Having read your last post, it immediately brought something to mind that you may not have considered. I hadn't really considered it either until I noticed where you are from. I am from NY. I also spent many years in Los Angeles. In these parts, for obvious reasons, I do believe you will find a disproportionate number of people who actually have been influenced to look into Aikido as compared to perhaps Texas, where you are from. Now it just so happens that when I was in LA, everyone seemed to know about Seagal Sensei when I mentioned that I practiced Aikido. When I came to NY, I made it a point, and still do, never to be the one to mention Steven Seagal Sensei, even though to do so might have some obvious commercial advantages. However, if I had to guess, I would put the percentages at over 90 as to those who when I said Aikido, they would immediately say something about Aikido in relation to Steven Seagal.

Perhaps then it has something to do with where we are. Perhaps both sides may be accurate. It could easily be said that in NY, or Los Angeles he is a bigger part of the general consciousness than in Texas. If this is somewhat accurate, I think you might agree that we may both be on to something.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 09-18-2004, 10:34 PM   #60
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Steven Seagal

Every quote I've ever read or heard from people who've actually trained with Seagal Sensei make him sound very impressive in terms of Aikido; if I ever had a chance to attend a seminar by him, I'd jump at it. Otoh, I am totally unimpressed by his movies. For one, I don't think most 'bad guys' are that stupid (unless really, really drunk), and for another, I'm female and can't stand the blatant t&a sans any sort of personality or character.

-Lorien
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Old 09-19-2004, 11:56 AM   #61
BKimpel
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Re: Steven Seagal

Heh heh -- now I'm gonna get in real trouble for this comment:
Not only was Steven Segal the reason I started Aikido (way back in 1989-1990)…but I actually didn't even know it was him at the time (cause he was still unknown at the time).

I saw a commercial for Above the Law and said, ‘Holy cow, Bono (from U2) is wiping the floor with some wicked ninja-moves. I gotta get me some of those moves'.

Perhaps the saving grace (so no one will lynch me):
The real reason I started Aikido was because after the Above the Law commercial (didn't see the movie yet), my dad told me that they actually practiced Aikido at the YMCA I had been taking Karate so I dragged a couple of buddies down to a class the next day.

The sensei noticed quite a large crowd of spectators, and conveniently decided to demonstrate shiho-nage (the full throw from standing position). After uke's feet whacked the light fixture a few times, we were hooked!

Bruce Kimpel
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Old 09-19-2004, 08:12 PM   #62
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Talking Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Bruce Kimpel wrote:
‘Holy cow, Bono (from U2) is wiping the floor with some wicked ninja-moves. I gotta get me some of those moves'.


Funniest thing I've heard in ages!
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Old 09-19-2004, 11:54 PM   #63
Chris Li
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
This is exactly my point. I've already stated on these forums that I am far less impressed by SS than some would like but the fact remains that he was dojo-cho of a Japanese dojo for 15 years. I would think that he would have a far greater idea of what Aikido is about than many.
Not to quibble, but according to "Watashi no Aikido" (published by Seagal's first wife) he became dojo-cho in 1976 - and essentially left for the US starting in 1979, giving a total of 3 years or a little more, not 15.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2004, 12:19 AM   #64
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Not to quibble, but according to "Watashi no Aikido" (published by Seagal's first wife) he became dojo-cho in 1976 - and essentially left for the US starting in 1979, giving a total of 3 years or a little more, not 15.
Good quible - I stand corrected. Now I wonder where I got the 15 years in Japan from (much less dojo-cho). He arrived in 1970 so that makes 8 or 9 years max training in Japan.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:37 AM   #65
Chris Li
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Good quible - I stand corrected. Now I wonder where I got the 15 years in Japan from (much less dojo-cho). He arrived in 1970 so that makes 8 or 9 years max training in Japan.
Again according to the book - Fujitani claims to have met Seagal for the first time in 1974 (she was a san-dan, he was still a 1st kyu) on a trip to California. He went to Japan later on that same year, which gives him around 5 years of time in country.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2004, 12:44 AM   #66
kironin
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Perhaps then it has something to do with where we are. Perhaps both sides may be accurate. It could easily be said that in NY, or Los Angeles he is a bigger part of the general consciousness than in Texas. If this is somewhat accurate, I think you might agree that we may both be on to something.
In Texas, it's more likely that they will think it some kind of Karate. Is this aikido anything like what Chuck Norris does ?


It's true. I have only passed through the LA airport and my time spent hanging out in NY was before Seagal made his first movie. I was aware of Aikido when I lived in Boston and it was only after a few years of training in Virginia that I became aware that there was some action film star that was said to have a background in Aikido.

of course we are both just talking about the US.

on other continents ?

I could imagine more connection might be made because Hollywood action films are said to be more translatable because the dialogue is secondary to the action in the story.

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Old 09-20-2004, 12:44 AM   #67
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Re: Steven Seagal

Interesting stuff - eh?

Now you got me wondering where I got the 1970 date from.

There is an interview where he says quite clearly that he went to Japan in the late sixties.

Last edited by PeterR : 09-20-2004 at 12:51 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-20-2004, 01:35 AM   #68
Chris Li
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Interesting stuff - eh?

Now you got me wondering where I got the 1970 date from.

There is an interview where he says quite clearly that he went to Japan in the late sixties.
Well, he was born in 1951, so that would have made him pretty young to be travelling around Japan - still it could be true that he visited at that time. Anyway, according to the book he moved to Japan to live in 1974 and married Fujitani in 1975 (this date, at least, seems to be confirmed by his official bio). Also, according to Fujitani he couldn't speak Japanese in 1974 and was still a white belt, so any prior adventures in Japan were probably not that significant.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2004, 02:11 AM   #69
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Re: Steven Seagal

Ok my bad - I understand where the 1970 date came from. I'll shut up now.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-20-2004, 03:11 AM   #70
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Re: Steven Seagal

Steven Seagal is great! I'm sure he gets enough flak, so I wish people would just leave him alone!

I've visited his home site and he's a good man. I love his films. Earlier in his career, he worked as a fight choreographer for films, then became a celebrity bodyguard - eventually, one guy he was teaching said that he had so much charisma, that he should be in the movies. I have to agree - his movie presence is simply awesome!

Big Fan.

Iain.
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Old 09-20-2004, 05:42 AM   #71
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Re: Steven Seagal

Cris, I can't speak Japanese, and untill recently I was a white belt too, but I can assure you that any trip to the birthplace of Aikido would be very significant to me back then!
I must say that I feel a little uncomfortable reading consistent unfavourable writing from your and others side about someone who recieved 7th dan by the second doshu, regardless of who it is. It's like you have an itch that needs to be scratched, you can't help but enlight us all about your inside (japan) information about these issues. Like hearing old ladies speaking to each other about the barbershop owner next door:

-Did you know, she came from Bangladesh.."Oh!murmurmurmurmurr".. "Yes It's true I heard it from the mother of a frequent customer... she probably didn't even have a proper education either!" "Ohhhh! murmurmurmurmurrrr...!"

Me I have never met S. Seagal, so I wouldn't dream of judging him.Until I do (if I ever), I'm not going to convey anything but respect towards him, as anyone else. I don't have any particular oppinions about him, like most people seem to have. I just find it strange to read this endless negative remarks about an aikido teacher that has recieved nothing but kind words from the second doshu himself.

Last edited by Aikilove : 09-20-2004 at 05:47 AM.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 09-20-2004, 10:45 AM   #72
Chris Li
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Jakob Blomquist wrote:
Cris, I can't speak Japanese, and untill recently I was a white belt too, but I can assure you that any trip to the birthplace of Aikido would be very significant to me back then!
I must say that I feel a little uncomfortable reading consistent unfavourable writing from your and others side about someone who recieved 7th dan by the second doshu, regardless of who it is. It's like you have an itch that needs to be scratched, you can't help but enlight us all about your inside (japan) information about these issues. Like hearing old ladies speaking to each other about the barbershop owner next door:
Have I written something unfavourable? To my knowledge I haven't - not once. All I did was make comments on the factual record. By "not significant" I meant that in all probability he spent no real length of time training or living in Japan before 1974.

In any case, there were at least two child molestors who received high ranks from Kisshomaru doshu, so that alone doesn't confer sainthood.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-21-2004, 01:43 AM   #73
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Re: Steven Seagal

What ever you say Cris.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:55 AM   #74
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Re: Steven Seagal

I've been told that in the opening scene in "NICO" (in the dojo) one of the three old Japanese men, nodding their heads' in approval, is Kenji Tomiki.

Is this true?

Iain.
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:51 AM   #75
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Re: Steven Seagal

Unless my memory fails me, I think Tomiki sensei died 1979, and the movie was made in the late 80s (1988?). So unless the footage was taken almost a decade before the movie was released, it would be highly unlikely that it was Kenji Tomiki in that scen.

Jakob Blomquist
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