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Old 06-04-2004, 11:42 AM   #26
mrjam2jab
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Re: Steven Seagal

Great...first you guys burst my bubble about the fight scenes in Segal's movies THEN you turn around a ruin the WWE thing for me too... :-)

I think Segal does use actual Aikido, his particular style, but it is embellished thru editing and camera angles to make it more interesting to watch...movie-fu as mentioned before. They probably think they need to do that to get the viewers attention.
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Old 06-04-2004, 01:53 PM   #27
James Giles
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Re: Aikido: The Path Beyond Thought

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Hi Bryan,

Thanks for the info on where to find it!
I thank you Bryan as well. And thank you George for letting us know there were no problems with the order. I started to order one from that link before, but for some reason it looked a little risky. I am glad to know its legitmate.
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Old 06-04-2004, 04:41 PM   #28
DaveO
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Angry Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Tony Sapa wrote:
But you got to understand in order to apply in the streets or shall i say in reality you really got to get the aggressor mad at you and you got to bring the devil out of them so you could see their energy come out and use this against them.
Erm.....

OK; this is the first time I've ever made a response like this on this forum; God willing it'll be the last, and I'll gladly accept any reprisal but ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?????
You're being attacked - the only use for defensive aikido - and you want to make the guy mad at you? That's not street-savvy, dude; that's freakin' insane!
Sorry; don't mean to be a jerk but you've just brought the combat vet out in full force on this one. You've been in fights? You're an expert then?
Is your idea to get him so mad he'll throw himself at you? That might work in the schoolyard; but on the street - the real live hairy street; not the cardboard cutout most people think about - that's the easiest recipe for suicide I've ever heard!
Try it if he's armed. Or if he's got friends. Or if he's substantially bigger than you are. Or if he's more experienced than you are. Or if he has any one of a thousand advantages at his disposal.
You want experience? OK - count the scars on my body. I stopped counting some years back when I passed 200. I've got more bones broken than unbroken in my body - passed the 50% mark 2 years ago. I've had 4 deliberate and specific attempts on my life; not including combat - that's a completely different dynamic. There's not a single moment I'm not in pain anymore. I'm alive - there are two confirmed and five probables that aren't because they tried to attack me.
THAT'S what happens when you get people mad at you, son. THAT'S violence. Holy crap; as far as violence goes; I'd rather deal with a fight a hundred times over than any of the examples of real violence I've survived.
And want to know the kicker? This is it - Think the above makes me an expert on the subject? Ir doesn't - far from it. I'm just a guy who lived through a hard job during a seriously tough time. I look to others - who are true experts - for guidance.
Some of them are on this forum.
You want to tell them what 'violence' is all about? Grow up, lad - before your ideas get you killed.

Now; let's look at that statement: "you really got to get the aggressor mad at you..."
Which means; he wasn't before? Which means, you provoked him? Which means you started the fight? Just what kind of aikido are you practicing?
In my experience; aikido is by far the best defensive system I've seen to date. Now I'll grant you; most clubs do not train their people in effective defence; at least none I've been in. (Or rather, one. Not my own.) But then again; most don't develop an attitude of provoking an aggressor in order to 'do aikido' on him. But aikido itself - if the mind is held steady and the concepts learned well - is highly effective against the vast majority of attacks in which a defence can be applied. Segal Sensei's aikido is no doubt excellent; but the stuff shown onscreen is hollywood claptrap. If you think that's an analog of reality; you're in for a major fall.
Aikido is a peaceful art - about restoring order to a chaotic situation. This is not simple mumbo-jumbo spiritualism; it's the very cornerstone of what makes aikido work. First; to keep you away from the situation in the first place. Second, to help defuse the situation without violence. Third, to effect the defence with the minimum energy and force necessary. This is important - if you try to force aikido, if you try to muscle through or use it to achieve a violent end, it will not work on the street.


Rant mode off - I apologize to the forum for my behaviour.

Last edited by DaveO : 06-04-2004 at 04:47 PM.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 06-05-2004, 02:49 PM   #29
Anders Bjonback
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Re: Steven Seagal

I tried watching one of his movies, Above the Law. His amazing aikido almost made it bearable, but as I was more and more repulsed by it, I ended up turning it off. Just not my kind of movie. But his aikido cool to watch, though. I'd rather watch some sort of instructional video with him demonstrating technique--it sure would be a lot more entertaining for me than his movies.

"For peace and happiness are presences, not objects we can grasp and hold onto."
--Lilian Smith
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Old 06-29-2004, 06:49 AM   #30
Peter Seth
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Smile Re: Steven Seagal

I've actually trained with segal and he does have great insight into aikido and practices this and other arts as one, depending on the situation. He does 'Big Man's' aikido as he is a biiig man. 6'5'' with forearms as big as my thighs.
But he definitely has the 'feel' of aikido and has the nous to realise that in practical situations the more you can bring to your defence the better chance you have of surviving.
Actually in my 40+ years in the arts I have found that aikido principles used as a mental and physical art can be used as a 'base' to incorporate any other art as required, for most situations. Ie: Become your attacker, give an opponent nothing to fight, he will therfore only be fighting himself - (hard to do) and this is where other arts can be brought in as backup.

Pete

PS: I found him to be a 'Gentleman', who took time to talk, especially to my 12 year old son who he 'gently' threw to the ground as he explained the principles. A nice man! He wasn't as gentle with me though. Ouch!

Last edited by Peter Seth : 06-29-2004 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 06-29-2004, 07:52 AM   #31
JoHo
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Re: Steven Seagal

Dear all
yes it is a kind of mystery Sensei Seagals Aikido.
on the internet i found this link yoav.8m.net/
look for Seagal, there is a huge file of Sensei Seagal. where he train in a Dojo (not a movie clip!)
the quality is not so good but gives a good impression of his Aikido Keiko.

regards
Horst
With the conquest of my mind, I have conquered the whole world
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Old 08-26-2004, 07:59 PM   #32
Benjie Lu
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Re: Steven Seagal

You could try this link:

SS Aikido

His aikido is very impressive, I must say... the man is obviously very skilled. I hope the SS bashers take a look at this before saying that he doesn't know aikido...

In aiki,

Benjie Lu
Manila, Philippines
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:30 AM   #33
Aikidoiain
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Re: Steven Seagal

I'm a big a fan of Steven Seagal (we even share the same birthday! 10th April).

I think he's a 7th Dan in Aikido. He has also studied Kenjutsu, Goju Ryu Karate, Kendo etc.

There's tons of Aikido in his films! In fact, I made up a "fight scene collection" edited from his films, so I could view his techniques in slo-mo.

He's the real deal. His on screen presence is AWESOME!

I think he's just great. He was the first non- Asian to open a dojo in Japan. He's well respected in the Aikido community.

Why does everyone keep knocking the guy? He's brought Aikido to the masses - who else has done that?

Iain.
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:37 AM   #34
Nick Simpson
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Re: Steven Seagal

"He's brought Aikido to the masses - who else has done that?"

Morihei Ueshiba - aka O'Sensei.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:46 AM   #35
Aikidoiain
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Re: Steven Seagal

Nick - you know that I meant through the movies.

Iain.
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Old 09-15-2004, 09:44 AM   #36
Nick Simpson
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Re: Steven Seagal

Hehehe, sorry Iain, I couldnt resist it

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-15-2004, 12:31 PM   #37
billybob
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
But what he portrays in his movies is not real. They are fun to watch but you can't go around breaking arms and blowing off legs in real life.
now that's kokyu waza i've never been taught! hahahaha

twice, i have made the mistake of criticizing someone else's sensei ---- and i used to have a straight nose.

billybob
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Old 09-15-2004, 01:08 PM   #38
kironin
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
"He's brought Aikido to the masses - who else has done that?"

Morihei Ueshiba - aka O'Sensei.

More like Koichi Tohei Sensei and many other pioneers in the 1950's and 1960's. People that were on TV and doing large demos and seminars before young Stevie joined a local California dojo after seeing one such demo. In Japan, he did not open a brand new dojo, he ran his first wife's already existing family dojo. Many of the elder Japanese shihan that moved out of their country for paltry pay to slowly grow programs over decades and have in recent years passed away or will in the not too distant future.

But the time Seagal had his flash of movie stardom in the late 80's and early 90's, there were already established schools all over the globe due to the perseverence of many people for the love of this art.

Seagal is a capable Aikidoist, but his role in the history of Aikido past being a fading film star is minimal. My younger students say
Seagal who ? Yet they wouldn't have found aikido if Tohei Sensei had not had a powerful effect on my teacher.

With Hollywood the attention span on any martial art is pretty short. The school down the block open to the masses everyday is not there because of Seagal.

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Old 09-15-2004, 05:10 PM   #39
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
More like Koichi Tohei Sensei and many other pioneers in the 1950's and 1960's. People that were on TV and doing large demos and seminars before young Stevie joined a local California dojo after seeing one such demo. In Japan, he did not open a brand new dojo, he ran his first wife's already existing family dojo. Many of the elder Japanese shihan that moved out of their country for paltry pay to slowly grow programs over decades and have in recent years passed away or will in the not too distant future.

But the time Seagal had his flash of movie stardom in the late 80's and early 90's, there were already established schools all over the globe due to the perseverence of many people for the love of this art.

Seagal is a capable Aikidoist, but his role in the history of Aikido past being a fading film star is minimal. My younger students say
Seagal who ? Yet they wouldn't have found aikido if Tohei Sensei had not had a powerful effect on my teacher.

With Hollywood the attention span on any martial art is pretty short. The school down the block open to the masses everyday is not there because of Seagal.

Um... Yeah.

And they say that all the good a person does is undone with one bold stroke of bad. Tohei Sensei single-handedly broke the Aikido community in half, creating a cavernous rift that has yet to heal to this day. Like him, respect him or not, there is no denying that he went against what his own teacher taught due to the pressure, influence or what have you from the other teachers in his life.

Craig, I don't seem to remember Seagal Sensei forever fracturing the Aikido community, but I'm sure you are about to tell me otherwise... The least you could do from time to time is be fair and balanced. However even the fair and balanced guy from Fox News is a conservative-nazi (read that as nazi for conservatism, not a nazi & conservative...)

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 09-15-2004, 08:41 PM   #40
AsimHanif
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Re: Steven Seagal

The statement was referring to "the masses" not the aikido community
Tohei Sensei was the first influential instructor to introduce aikido to the U.S and because of him the seed of aikido gradually spread throughout the country but it was still mainly practiced by a very underground sub culture.
With one movie, Seagal Sensei put the word aikido into mainstream society on a global scale.
Seagal Sensei had the advantage of a very powerful medium. They both fulfilled their missions well and it's hard to know right now the impact that Seagal Sensei has had on aikido. I DO know. when I try to describe aikido to the uninitiated I usually say "something like what Steven Seagal does", and people know what I'm talking about. If I drop the name of Koichi Tohei, I would definitely get a blank look.
The statement was referring to "the masses" not the aikido community.
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Old 09-15-2004, 11:57 PM   #41
Infamousapa
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Re: Steven Seagal

I've got more bones broken than unbroken in my body - passed the 50% mark 2 years ago.
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Old 09-16-2004, 01:39 AM   #42
kironin
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
More like Koichi Tohei Sensei and many other pioneers in the 1950's and 1960's.
I could have made a long list of teachers. One person has chosen to reply in a barely rational way at a low level that I am not going to go down to.

here is an interesting interview...
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=365

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Old 09-16-2004, 02:23 AM   #43
Michael Cardwell
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
John Burn wrote:
IMHO, I was very unimpressed with The Path Beyond Thought to the point I gave my copy away! Some of the older footage was interesting but the more recent stuff was... very unimpressive. The way he was speaking to his students was, in my opinion, quite shocking and the students of his on the tape did nothing more than suck up to him saying how good he is and how amazing his Aikido is.

Just my opinion!
I quite agree, I had the same reaction to The Path Beyond Thought, Seagul seems to run his dojo more like a army drill Sargent than a aikido instructor. On the other hand I like most of his earlier movies, were he still does aikido, true you have to pick out the aikido from the other Martial arts that he does, but it is cool when you see actual aikido techniques in movies.
I have never trained with Seagul sensei, so I can't say this for sure, but he seems to be confused some times about what martial art he is teaching. His techniques seem to flicker back and forth between aikido, aiki jujutsu and something else. I'm not saying that is wrong for a general self defense class, but it is wrong to call it aikido. Don't hold crap in your hand and call it pudding, aikido is aikido and people need to stop trying to change it into something else.
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Old 09-16-2004, 02:23 AM   #44
kironin
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote:
I DO know. when I try to describe aikido to the uninitiated I usually say "something like what Steven Seagal does", and people know what I'm talking about.

There are plenty of the masses who have seen Seagal's movies who never even heard the word 'aikido' .

and if you say "what Seagal does" , you really think people know what you are talking about ? Are they imagining, wacking people with two halves of a pool stick, filipino knife fight with Tommy Lee Jones, smashing someone's face into a console, posturing in macho bar fights, killing. Just what images are you giving them about aikido ?

the general public at an aikido demonstration can easily get the wrong impression, much less watching a movie that is there for entertainment.

Quote:
The statement was referring to "the masses" not the aikido community.
okay, and the point ?

are you saying I should care that the movie going masses has seen Seagal use a kotegaishi to throw a guy into a jukebox ? or wipe the floor with a much smaller person like Matsuoka ?
in what movie was some part of a fraction of Aikido as an art or philosophy in any form conveyed while entertaining the masses ?

Aikido community does not exist in a vacuum, it comes from many teachers everyday interacting with the masses. Seagal's impact given his mixed publicity and fading stardom due to his minimal ability to act is really quite questionable.

His impact on those who he trained as an aikido teacher is a separate matter. Respectable, but not on the scale of Yamada, Chiba, Kanai, Tamura, etc. in terms of an impact on the masses that continues.

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Old 09-16-2004, 02:33 AM   #45
kironin
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote:
If I drop the name ...
why drop any name ?


thinking about what aikido is to you in as few a words as possible as a response can be a useful exercise.

and if you tell them it's what so and so action film star does, they may assume they think they know what it is and ask no more.

Last edited by kironin : 09-16-2004 at 02:36 AM.

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Old 09-16-2004, 02:44 AM   #46
PeterR
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Michael Cardwell wrote:
His techniques seem to flicker back and forth between aikido, aiki jujutsu and something else.

..........

aikido is aikido and people need to stop trying to change it into something else.
Hmmm - and what exactly is Aikido?

Pretty sure you would have issues with what I call Aikido also.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:43 AM   #47
Michael Cardwell
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Hmmm - and what exactly is Aikido?

Pretty sure you would have issues with what I call Aikido also.
Perhaps I would, but wither I would or not does not matter. I'm sure that lots of people have sightly different ideas about what aikido is, and how to best practice it. Maybe you should go to the primary source, i.e. Osensei, watch all the video footage of him and read all of his writings, and then ask yourself if your idea of aikido closely resembles his. I should think that would matter to you. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Old 09-16-2004, 10:06 AM   #48
AsimHanif
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Re: Steven Seagal

What's wrong Craig? Did I strike a nerve?
I notice that everytime someone makes a statement about the Ki Society that you don't agree with, you take it personally. Why can't we just agree to disagree? As an instructor and mentor of people I would expect better of you. I have great respect for much of what the Ki Society teaches and I try to convey that. But because I get out and experience other methods I don't have blinders on. It is obvious that your statements are based on arrogance and lack of experience. I suggest you get on the mat with people from other styles and experience the diversity of aikido. Not just in the physical but also in the physical and spiritual makeup of each person. I am so happy I got the chance to train with Wolfe Sensei of VKS, who trains in reality. So my commnets are no way a dis' of the Ki Society or Tohei Sensei.
I will not even attempt to explain my comments to you here. I will send you a PM though. I think they are self explanatory to anyone with an open mind. I suggest you go back and re-read them because as usual, you have misquoted statements that were made.
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Old 09-16-2004, 04:03 PM   #49
kironin
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote:
What's wrong Craig? Did I strike a nerve?
I think you are reading too much into my reply which really didn't have anything to do with Ki Society.

I didn't think your comments in anyway dissed Ki Society and I really don't understand how you read that into to my reply. If everyone agrees to disagree, it would be a pretty inactive forum. I haven't taken anything someone says personally about the Ki Society in a long time so the rest of what you posted is a bit puzzling unless of couse I struck some nerve.

I would suggest you go back and read my replies to you. There is no reference to Ki Society in there.

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Old 09-16-2004, 04:31 PM   #50
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Steven Seagal

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
and if you tell them it's what so and so action film star does, they may assume they think they know what it is and ask no more.
This is very true, I've experienced this at times when I've used Seagal's name to help explain what Aikido is. These are often during times when I just don't have the time or energy to go into a lengthy explanation as Aikido tends to be a bit different from the typical "it's either Karate or Judo" mindset we tend to have here in the general public. Mostly I refer to the movie Nico where there was actually some Aikido being done in a dojo at the beginning of the movie.

Of course imo, if they can take my 2 line explanation and assume that they know what it is and ask no more, then they either "already know what it is" or probably wouldn't have the patience to find out through training anyway. In either case it's all good, less waste of time and energy on both sides.

I see no problem with folks using Seagal's name to help explain what Aikido is, since imho everyone has a different opinion of exactly what that may be and it ranges from the minor to the extreme. Just train at the level you're supposed to and those who like it will come find out more, those who don't will keep on walking.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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