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Old 05-21-2004, 08:39 AM   #1
drDalek
 
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Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

I know that almost everyone practices tanto-dori, knife disarms, throws, pins etc...
Does the rest of the Aikido world ever practice actual knife-fighting? In the sense of 2 opponents squaring off and trying to cut/stab/usual-tanto-dori-stuff each other?

I know that this idea of a "knife-duel" is pretty much as far removed from reality as is possible and knife attacks are mostly assasinations as opposed to the usual intent-confrontation-attack that we deal with. I still think though that this kind of unrealistic dueling has some value, specifically to teach ma-ai, timing and evasion.

I would like to hear some other opinions on this matter.
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:31 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

I would personally not look to aikido for that. In my case, probably to silat or arnis. The use of the tanto in japanese arts like aikido seems to come from the idea of fighting someone armoured...thus the predominant use of tsuki type attacks, and slashes to what would be vulnerable areas. I think that against a properly trained contemporary knife fighter, those attacks are very limited, and the type of defenses are thereby limited as well. Just my opinion though.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:44 AM   #3
Ninja Mike
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Maby they should have uke have a rubber knife and have nage not know how he is going to be attacked. i think this ould be the best methods of training tanto in aikido

Before man had guns, he had balls!!!
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:48 AM   #4
vanstretch
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

tanto like dull butterknife. but good to train with it anyway for ma-ai, tai-sabaki, etc.. I like those bendable plastic simulation knives that actually look like knives; it just seems more realistic and appears a much more serious weapon. Just opinion, hopefully not too far off . thanks all, take care.
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:51 AM   #5
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Awhile back I was talking to Richard Heckler Sensei and catching up with what we were both doing. I found that he had been doing some paired knife work just as I had. We both found that there was a certain group of the students who, while doing kumitachi training without a second thought, found the paired knife work to be un-Aiki somehow. One wonders what they were thinking those swords were ?

Anyway, I have worked a bit on a system of aiki knife defense which is designed to use a fixed blade knife in a reverse grip. This allows one to use the knife for trapping as well as cutting and stabbing. The idea in this system was to use the knife to accomplish a disarm at the onset of the attack by cutting their weapons delivery arm (this is no different than most kali / silat knife work) but then utilize the trapping capacity of the reverse grip to allow a takedown and immobilization rather than killing the attacker.

Knife work requires great speed and relaxation and is quite helpful for ones Aikido training. When you get to the point where an attacker has trouble getting you with a knife, empty hand starts to feel easy by comparison.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-21-2004, 12:02 PM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

I like what you describe George! Do you teach this in seminars yet? I need to get to one of your seminars anyway...do you ever hit the mid-atlantic?

Ron

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Old 05-21-2004, 12:45 PM   #7
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I like what you describe George! Do you teach this in seminars yet? I need to get to one of your seminars anyway...do you ever hit the mid-atlantic?

Ron
Mid-Atlantic? Only if someone invites me...

And no, no one seemd very interested in the knife stuff and I haven't worked in it in a long time. I get to develop that side of things in my Defensive Tactics work which is fast becoming something in between Aikido and Systema. People in those classes are more receptive to the knife work than the Aikido folks in general.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 05-21-2004, 01:10 PM   #8
Greg Jennings
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Ledyard Sense, do you do anything with a short Asp? That's what I generally have around when in more dangerous parts of town.

Best regards,

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Old 05-21-2004, 01:45 PM   #9
BC
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

You carry a short snake with you?

Just kidding.

I too am interested in learning more techniques for knife fighting. I trained a little bit in knife fighting back in the eighties in a different art, and figure that someday, when I have more free time, I'd seek out a good kali, arnis or escrima school. Not only do those arts teach excellent knife techniques, but their unarmed techniques are very good, especially in close quarters combat.

I find it interesting that many of the senior students in our dojo carry knives on a regular basis.

Robert Cronin
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Old 05-21-2004, 01:59 PM   #10
drDalek
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Mid-Atlantic? Only if someone invites me...

And no, no one seemd very interested in the knife stuff and I haven't worked in it in a long time. I get to develop that side of things in my Defensive Tactics work which is fast becoming something in between Aikido and Systema. People in those classes are more receptive to the knife work than the Aikido folks in general.
Ever since hearing about Systema and after viewing some videos I realized that it is just so incredibly compatible with Aikido.

Its almost an indepth Atemi / Kuzushi course, I'm not too impressed with the sloppy looking footwork but what do I know, I never tried it.

Sometimes I get stuck doing some technique but luckily I am allowed to experiment myself out of my predicament. What I come up with seems to resemble Systema in some small way and my previously resisting uke always seems to end up flat on his back with a surprised expression on his face. I wish real classes in Systema are available down here.

Apologies for derailing my own thread here
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Old 05-21-2004, 02:01 PM   #11
senshincenter
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Dear Mr. Van Dyk,

We do something very close to what you are describing. I'd say exactly if I could see what you are saying - it sounds that close. We have one class per week dedicated to that type of training. As of now I have only been able to put our entry level drills on digital video (which are nothing more than the filming of classes that are then edited for studying purposes). We do not sell these videos productions for profit, but folks are required to contribute funds for the vhs tape or the dvd-r disk upon which they are copied. Dojo members also donate extra funds to cover the production costs of tapes and disks that are meant for dojo guests. Please consider yourself one, and if you'd like, you can email me with your shipping address and I can send one to you (at no cost) asap.

email me at senshincenter@impulse.net

Thank you,
david
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Old 05-21-2004, 02:06 PM   #12
drDalek
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Dear Mr. Van Dyk,

We do something very close to what you are describing. I'd say exactly if I could see what you are saying - it sounds that close. We have one class per week dedicated to that type of training. As of now I have only been able to put our entry level drills on digital video (which are nothing more than the filming of classes that are then edited for studying purposes). We do not sell these videos productions for profit, but folks are required to contribute funds for the vhs tape or the dvd-r disk upon which they are copied. Dojo members also donate extra funds to cover the production costs of tapes and disks that are meant for dojo guests. Please consider yourself one, and if you'd like, you can email me with your shipping address and I can send one to you (at no cost) asap.

email me at senshincenter@impulse.net

Thank you,
david

Wow, that is an incredibly generous offer, you do realise that I am in South Africa though?

I can email you on Monday when I get back to work (if the whole living in south africa thing does not bother you too much! )
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Old 05-21-2004, 02:14 PM   #13
senshincenter
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Wynand - please, no worries, it is a small thing. Please contact me. No worries on the shipping either - I have a student that works for FedEx, so we can send it on the cheap and you can get it on the quick. :-) (Fedex won't send to P.O. Boxes - has to be a home address or a work address)

It's just you have to let me know what dvd region you are in - I'm sorry, I'm ignorant of such things as far as South Africa goes. Same thing goes for vhs cassettes - not sure what players you are using there. Or at least let me know if you have access to a non-regional dvd player, or a region one dvd player, or if you have access to a NTSC video cassette player (these things I can easily do). If not, otherwise, etc., I might have to give you the information on two one hour Mini-DV cassettes which I think are more universal as far as digitial video cameras go (assuming you can use yours as a video player).

so let me know when you write me.
thanks,
david
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Old 05-21-2004, 02:37 PM   #14
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Ledyard Sense, do you do anything with a short Asp? That's what I generally have around when in more dangerous parts of town.

Best regards,
The stick stuff I do is influenced heavily by Chris Petrilli who is a student of Grandmaster Canete in Doces Pares Escrima which he calls "escrido" because of the Aikido influence.

Anyway, it's the standard striking techniques but with an emphasis on close quarters striking, locking and throwing technqies in which the stick is used. the short ASP is a bit short of some of the entanglement stuff but just training to do the same takedowns we normally use in Aikido with the stick in your hand is enough. The point is not to go in to the striking zone just because the stick came out and forget all the other stuff you know causing you to do what we call a "Rodney" on the attacker. De-escalation is the main point of the stick training we do.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 05-21-2004, 02:41 PM   #15
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

Quote:
Wynand van Dyk wrote:
Ever since hearing about Systema and after viewing some videos I realized that it is just so incredibly compatible with Aikido.

Its almost an indepth Atemi / Kuzushi course, I'm not too impressed with the sloppy looking footwork but what do I know, I never tried it.

Sometimes I get stuck doing some technique but luckily I am allowed to experiment myself out of my predicament. What I come up with seems to resemble Systema in some small way and my previously resisting uke always seems to end up flat on his back with a surprised expression on his face. I wish real classes in Systema are available down here.

Apologies for derailing my own thread here
Just get yourslef some of the videos from the Russian Martial art site and play with it. There are certainly things that they do which reuire a high level teacher, the enregy stuff is amazing, but the movement stuff is fairly easy and simply reuires that you get your body used to it. I had worked only off of the videos when I went to the Expo and some of the junior Systema guys thought I was an instructor... of course the senior guys knew better!

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 05-21-2004, 06:13 PM   #16
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

In Yoshokai aikido, we do tanto along with jo and bokken as part of our basic buki curriculum. Some of that is kumitanto.

I hope I haven't used the joke yet, but I keep feeling like I'm going to turn into that "In Communist Russia, car drives you!" guy.

"In Yoshokai aikido, mat falls on you!"
"In Yoshokai aikido, bokken swings you!"
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Old 05-22-2004, 10:49 AM   #17
SeiserL
 
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Re: Aiki-tanto knife fighting?

IMHO, coming from and FMA background (Lucaylucay Kali) and other knife fighting seminars (mostly FMA based), I too do not find the Aikido style of attack too effective. I must admit though, that there are a lot of untrained people who carry blades and attack this way.

That being said, the training does teach you aiki principles which than can transfer to better attack defense. The November 2004 issue of Black Belt is scheduled to show Aikido against the 5-angles of a knife attack.

If you study both FMA and Aikido eventually they begin to integrate and you feel okay with the practice.

Don't worry about what it isn't, focus on what it is and train. Training against a knife, any knife from any attack, is better than not training at all. Dojo training will never be like the streets. The closer the scenarios the better chance of generalization of course.

Remember, training isn't sparring, sparing isn't fighting, and fighting isn't combat.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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