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Old 05-18-2004, 04:52 AM   #1
domidude
Dojo: Kobayashi Dojos, Hungary
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protecting a third party person

aikido is great to protect myself and initially avoid trouble, it has great technics to control a situation and protect the agressor/attacker from the consequences of their own action, but what can be done - as far as aikido can go - to protect someone else in trouble, on the street... ie: someone getting beaten up by two other guys? (and no time to call for help...)
in this case protecting that person would be attacking the two other guys, would it not?
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Old 05-18-2004, 05:10 AM   #2
angel_joanna20
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Re: protecting a third party person

hi
you are a good guy, if you help people in trouble
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Old 05-18-2004, 05:14 AM   #3
angel_joanna20
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Re: protecting a third party person

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Old 05-18-2004, 05:39 AM   #4
Orihime
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Re: protecting a third party person

Well, dunno. If you interfere, the two bad guys will probably attack you and leave your buddy alone. Then, well, you may imagine it's a randori. Don't hesitate with atemi, especially if they're two on you...
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:34 AM   #5
Josh Bisker
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Re: protecting a third party person

throw a rock at them.

mostly kidding with that, but i guess that if you can get them to leave the person alone to attack you, then you're doing something. of course, that might be a terrible idea - you are putting yourself at serious risk. of course we all want to help, but perhaps a resourceful person could figure out something which will help out the person being attacked while still keeping you safe. like throwing a rock at them.

Last edited by Josh Bisker : 05-18-2004 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 05-18-2004, 07:08 AM   #6
Robert Jackson
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Re: protecting a third party person

Well, I like to call it cell phone waza.... Put my hand in my pocket, pull out my cell and call the police...
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Old 05-18-2004, 07:12 AM   #7
Nick Simpson
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Re: protecting a third party person

Glass them when their not looking.
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:59 AM   #8
Bronson
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Robert Jackson wrote:
Well, I like to call it cell phone waza.... Put my hand in my pocket, pull out my cell and call the police...
Go with this if at all possible.

I guess it amazes me that people never work on this kind of stuff. To quote something Peter Rehse said in the Concrete Ukemi thread.
Quote:
There is no fundamental difference between ukemi on any surface - if there is you should consider exactly what you are training for.
Same thing needs to apply to technique. It needs to be adaptable to whatever situation. In a 3rd party situation there is still energy being given. It's just not directed at you but that doesn't mean you can't blend with and redirect it. Once the initial blend and redirect has taken place move into whatever technique fits the situation.

IMO aikido is not about learning a set of techniques. It's about learning a set of principles. We use the techniques to teach us the principles but once the principles are learned techniques begin to appear and adapt as needed.

YMMV

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-18-2004, 03:52 PM   #9
Amassus
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

My instructor had such an experience. He saw a guy being kicked while on the ground. He performed irimi into the scuffle and stood over the guy saying "You will not kick him anymore" His boldness and bearing was enough to deter the attackers, they left. No blows were exchanged.

Sometimes people can sense the confidence something like aikido can give you, and they back off.

Of course, maybe, my instructor just got lucky...who knows for sure.

Last edited by Amassus : 05-18-2004 at 03:54 PM.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:15 PM   #10
Ninja Mike
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

i say you castrate the bastards with a hammer..........hehehehehehe

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!........ on a serious note personally i would put myself between the the attackers and the victim, and hopefully it would deter the attackers (who are obviously cowards for fighting 2 on 1) enough to walk away, and if they don't hopefully my aikido skills against multiple attackers will pay off. what im trying to say is that you want to try to stop them from attacking without attacking them, make it so they have to attack you or walk away.

Last edited by Ninja Mike : 05-18-2004 at 06:19 PM.

Before man had guns, he had balls!!!
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:15 PM   #11
Tadhg Bird
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

We can theorize all we want about particular situations, but when it comes down to it, (hopefully) our training will enable us to act spontaneously and correctly.

I would not consider throwing someone who is attacking another an "attack". It is possible to move first and still be Aikido. My teacher calls this 'Saki ni'.

To contradict what I said from the outset, I can think of two techniques I would try given the described situation.

There is an Irimi, where you enter behind someone and placing a hand on each of their shoulders, bring them down to the ground. This would work if not facing the attacker.

Another, I don't know the name, but would work facing someone is you place a hand on the side of their head, and roll the head into your shoulder and drop them.

Of course this is all theory. I don't know what I would do in the real situation. Maybe just jump in the middle and do whatever needs doing. Maybe something I cannot imagine.

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:03 PM   #12
Ian Williams
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Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
There is an Irimi, where you enter behind someone and placing a hand on each of their shoulders, bring them down to the ground. This would work if not facing the attacker.
I think we have something similar in JJ called O Irimi Senkai
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:39 PM   #13
PeterR
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
I think we have something similar in JJ called O Irimi Senkai
We call it ushiro-ate. See here for the animated gif. The explanation relates it to Kodokan Judo principles.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:45 PM   #14
Largo
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Re: protecting a third party person

It would depend on the situation. I wouldn't jump in the middle (because that would get me clobbered and not much else). I would guess that I would either try to distract them or else attack from behind (kick to the back, back of the knees, etc.)
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Old 05-19-2004, 04:13 AM   #15
markwalsh
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Re: protecting a third party person

I believe O'Sensei said that aikido can be used in this kind context, though it was caged in more old fashioned languge. I think the quote was from Tohei senseis book before he split from the Aikikai? Our responsibility is to minimize violence in general right? Not just to ourselves but to others, including the attackers.

I intervined as a third party recently and employed some blending and a strangle. No one got more than grazes (no mats) so was OK result in my book. Couldn't make a wrist lock work, but I was pretty drunk. If it had been a bunch of people....? Guess that depends on how brave you are!

Oh, to bring you oldies up to speed, camera phones tend to discourage kickings. Snap a few pics then threaten to send them to the police. On the other hand that might just antagonise people, but heh, you gotta pratice so either way!

Mark
x
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Old 05-19-2004, 06:13 AM   #16
ian
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

In the most important aspect aikido is good in a 3rd party situation: it can give you the confidence to intervene before violence even occurs (because you feel you can protect yourself). Personally I do feel I have a duty to intervene in some situations because I believe fighting is not about whether you can win or loose, it is about whether (morally) you should or should not fight.

I have intervened once and completely misread the situation, however aikido was ideal because after restraining them, I realised my mistake; I apologised and I hadn't caused any damage; it's all good.

I think the beauty of aikido is that it is a self-defence which stops you having to make any value judgments - if someone attacks you agressively they tend to fall hard; if they attack softly the defence tends to be more gentle. Although in multiple attack situations I may temorarily disable someone, I would never try to kill anyone because you can never fully understand another's motivation or problems; you can only hope that one day they will live to regret some of their actions.

Also, aikido doesn't require hate, and is good at dealing with projected hate from attackers, so there are less psychological repercussions (which are often worse than the physical ones).

Ian
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Old 05-19-2004, 06:18 AM   #17
ian
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

P.S. the situation you describe happened to me. In a crowded pub two men were kicking a third who was on the floor (which is potentially life threatening). I could not reach them and nobody was stopping them so I shouted very loudly "Oooiyyy" across the pub. To my suprise they stopped to look at me. I couldn't get near them, and didn't know what else to do so I shouted "f*ck off" (1st thing that I could think of). They were about to start back into him, but I had bought enough time for the bar staff (who may have been alterted by my shout) to grab the agressors.

Don't underestimate the power of the voice!
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Old 05-19-2004, 06:20 AM   #18
ian
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

P.P.S. I've never regretted getting involved in a 3rd party situation, but a couple of times I have regretted not getting involved (but I'm free to say that 'cos I'm still alive!) It is often a difficult thing for you to do because friends and people around you are very discouraging about getting involved. As long as the objective is to physically protect people (in general) from serious injury* and not to get in to a fight or involved in an argument which isn't yours I think it is justified.

(* often when young men fight it seems to do them good and it helps them establish their own hierarchy or brings them to understand each other more)

Last edited by ian : 05-19-2004 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:24 AM   #19
Ninja Mike
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
In the most important aspect aikido is good in a 3rd party situation: it can give you the confidence to intervene before violence even occurs (because you feel you can protect yourself). Personally I do feel I have a duty to intervene in some situations because I believe fighting is not about whether you can win or loose, it is about whether (morally) you should or should not fight.

I have intervened once and completely misread the situation, however aikido was ideal because after restraining them, I realised my mistake; I apologised and I hadn't caused any damage; it's all good.

I think the beauty of aikido is that it is a self-defence which stops you having to make any value judgments - if someone attacks you agressively they tend to fall hard; if they attack softly the defence tends to be more gentle. Although in multiple attack situations I may temorarily disable someone, I would never try to kill anyone because you can never fully understand another's motivation or problems; you can only hope that one day they will live to regret some of their actions.

Also, aikido doesn't require hate, and is good at dealing with projected hate from attackers, so there are less psychological repercussions (which are often worse than the physical ones).

Ian
I think that would sums up my views on it perfectally

Before man had guns, he had balls!!!
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:44 AM   #20
SeiserL
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

IMHO, If you see Aikido is true Budo, and if the goal of Aikido is the loving protection of all people, and if the strategy is to enter and blend and do the least amount of damage, then an offensive move would appear appropriate.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:21 AM   #21
markwalsh
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Re: protecting a third party person

Excellent posts Ian.

You have also proven the point that eloquent, intelligent and peaceful people can swear to! Keep it up, its cool and hard.

Mark
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Old 05-19-2004, 05:40 PM   #22
Tadhg Bird
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
We call it ushiro-ate. See here for the animated gif. The explanation relates it to Kodokan Judo principles.
Yes, Ushiro-ate is very close to the technique I described. Thank you!

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
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Old 05-22-2004, 11:18 AM   #23
gasman
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

Think twice before you enter the situation, because you will draw the agression of two people towards yourself. Also remember that although the highest aim of aikido is to disable the agressor without causing harm, your prime responisbility is to protect yourself. And if this means causing harm to the agressor(s) so be it. I would say it takes a lot of guts and self confidence in your technique to step in. Sometimes it will be enough to shout (ki-ai) letting them know that another person is aware and incoming, other times you might end up on the floor bleeding...
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Old 05-22-2004, 11:54 AM   #24
Troy
 
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Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Dean Suter wrote:
My instructor had such an experience. He saw a guy being kicked while on the ground. He performed irimi into the scuffle and stood over the guy saying "You will not kick him anymore" His boldness and bearing was enough to deter the attackers, they left. No blows were exchanged.

Sometimes people can sense the confidence something like aikido can give you, and they back off.

Of course, maybe, my instructor just got lucky...who knows for sure.
I would do what Dean Suter's Sensei did. Sence he did an Irimi into the fight, if an attack did happen, he would have been in the perfect position to exicute a throw or what-have-you. But, to be honest, if that did happen to me, knowing my luck, i might lose control, and throw the attacker without saying anything. I feel that a big part of Aikido is helping those in need; be it helping an old person cross a street, or if they are being attacked.
"The strong protect the weak, so the weak may become strong."

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions."
-Morihei Ueshiba
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