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Old 05-10-2004, 03:14 AM   #1
Orihime
Dojo: Sei Shin Kai (Compiègne)
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Question Koshi nage without strength?

Hi everyone,
Do you know how to do a real Koshi nage with an Uke who is bigger and heavier? I often practise with such and it is always very difficult for me to do this technique. I know there is a way so that everyone can do it, but which one?
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:31 AM   #2
Aristeia
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Work backwards from a kokyu nage. There are several different versions of koshi nage but most of them can be related to a kokyu nake. Practice the kokyu until your timing is right and you're blending with the attack to throw effortlessly. Then start slipping your hip into the throw until you get to a full blown koshi.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:03 AM   #3
PaulieWalnuts
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Fist always make sure you assume a cross shape between you and uke ie if uke is standing in hanmi upright then you need to get under with your hips and back rotated against ukes hips.So you should be so rotated that you are looking up at the sky with all the aweight on one leg then reverse the postion so the weight is now on the other leg and you are now looking up at the sky from the opposite side . Uke MUST be on your hips and no higher or it is the strongest person who can through because uke is on your hips you should be able to carry 3x your weight easily. you can feel an instant difference if tey ar e any higher. You should never have your back bent over at any time its your legs that bend and your back rotates. This is why it should use no energy
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:20 AM   #4
PaulieWalnuts
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Heres another point, when throwing uke have a feeling like a large clock pendulium, think about that large swinging motion, and change the swinging angle so that it fits into koshinage. This was one of the best bits of advise i got while training in Iwama along with a thousand other bits
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:23 AM   #5
Greg Jennings
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Chuck Clark Sensei said something that made a world of difference in my koshinage and many other techniques.

He said (something like) that the crucial element was to put uke in a position where the fell over nage's hips. I.e., Uke is falling anyway and nage puts his hips in the way so that uke can't step forward to regain his balance.

I hope Clark Sensei will jump in with the real idea; this is just a poor paraphrasing.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-10-2004, 09:12 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

As the bigger uke; (1) inhale and empty the space by entering in and dropping below uke's center of gravity, (3) allow his or her center of gravity to pass over your center-line so most of his or her weight and momentum is going forward over you into the throw, (3) exhale and push the hips up, (4) let his or her weight carry them over you, and (5) protect his or her fall. One motion.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-10-2004, 09:41 AM   #7
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Hello Greg and all,

Lots of good stuff here. My only contribution is that the way I do and teach koshi waza there is no pushing up with tori's legs to lift uke. My center is dropping instead of lifting and when the kuzushi and tsukuri are done properly, the uke's legs do the lifting and tori's hips act as a pivot point. Often when done with kokyu ryoku neither person "feels" (or maybe remembers feeling) much contact at the hips. It's more a factor of tori's hips occupying space at the apex of uke's rising hips and then uke rotating around that point.

It takes lots of good drills for distance, timing, and fitting to develop the sensitivity to bring this off. I don't think there are any instances in aikido or tadashi judo where tori "lifts" or "pulls" the uke. Pushing and cutting movements do the trick. We cause uke to lift their own center (entering into the cycle of rising, floating, and then dropping center) by dropping our own center in the right place with the right vector and timing in all waza.

Gambatte,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:44 PM   #8
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

I was always taught that if uke follows the same line across your hips as your belt then you should be able to put them over without buckling under their weight, no matter how big they are.
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:27 PM   #9
Tharis
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Another thought, though I'm not an expert...

I think I was told once that if you keep moving, that is, you move through his hips instead of loading them onto yours, then you're only really carrying his weight for less than a second. This style, I think, is difficult until you get the basics down, but it may be worth trying.

Yours in ukemi,

Thomas
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Old 05-11-2004, 12:53 AM   #10
Brad Darr
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Koshi nage is my favorite technique and I have spent years trying to figure out the most efficient way to do them. This has lead me to visit many judo classes as well as watching any bit of video footage I can find. Anyway I agree totally with Clark sensei, often times you see people step in and lift the uke and then throw. This may work well if you are bigger but I speak from expereince that trying to lift a 250 lb. guy onto your hip is not an easy feat and I am not that small. My sensei has been having us really work on twisting our hips so that uke is off balance towards you, as you keep turning your hips it "tips" uke over you hip instead of lifting them. I find that it works amazingly well and takes little effort. I think that this is the same idea that Clark sensei was talking about in that you don't throw the uke they sort of fall onto, then over you hip. Also Ikeda sensei has a tape dedicated to koshi waza called "Koshi", it is excellent and full of great ideas for training and some amazing variations against weapons.

the edges of the sword are life and death
no one knows which is which
-Ikkyu Sojun
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Old 05-17-2004, 07:23 PM   #11
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

When performing koshinage you want to drive your hip into your partners groing, like an atemi. This will cause your partner to rise up on toes making it easier to stretch the person over your hip. It is difficult to explain but easy to show. Keep practicing, you will find your technique.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:47 AM   #12
Orihime
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Thank you for the advice, everyone. I'm gonna practise and improve, I hope.
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Old 05-18-2004, 07:22 AM   #13
adriangan
 
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Just make sure that your hip is lower than that of your partner's. But the best advice i can give is practice jujitsu or judo, it worked for me

Last edited by adriangan : 05-18-2004 at 07:26 AM.

"Masakatsu Agatsu"
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Old 05-18-2004, 11:05 AM   #14
Sonnyboy
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

just like adrian said, just lower those hip. but for me i always do the atemi so he can be easily thrown.

if you look at the naked unsheathed blade then that blade will kill you.
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Old 06-28-2004, 01:11 AM   #15
arderljohn
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Hi Fabianne,

Just like you, Im having a hard time to developed the Koshi Nage. but nevertheless, we must continue our practice. to hone our knowledge.. best luck.
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Old 06-28-2004, 09:21 AM   #16
Paula Lydon
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

~~Greetings~~

I am small myself and must keep three things in mind when performing hip throws.

1) Make certain uke is coming across your hips, not your back, for the briefest of moments during the throw. I don't use right angles, more of a 45o or so.

2) Make sure knees flex and both your weight and uke's can be transfered between legs.

3) Rotate through the throw on two axis: Right side throw: float uke toward your high/right corner (1:00 o'clock) and rotate through the throw, briefly across hips, to your lower/left corner (7:00 o'clock). A lot of folks try to heave over the top and this does not help them much unless they're large and can then pretty much pick me up and slam me on the groung. Not really a throw, but effective if I'm silly enough to stand there and let them do it

Have fun!

~~Paula~~
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Old 06-28-2004, 09:37 AM   #17
Peter Seth
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Smile Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Koshi Nage is simply using basic tai sabaki to insinuate yourself into Uke's centre - they will have to move their centre off balance/line which will raise and extend them/their Ki around and over your hips/centre. You (with practice) can actually throw them in passing using only your hip. Its one of my favourite techniques - excellent in randori.
As in all martial arts - be where your opponent doesn't want you to be. 1/2 step out of their rythm is enough - either into their centre or out of their centre will bring you to their centre.
Sounds strange but its the essence of all things, as O'sensei said 'There is no such thing as technique'! Only the movement of KI relative to an opponents energy.

Thomas has the idea.

Its all about flow and not technique as such. If you have seen O'sensei in his later demo's all he does is move his energy relative to his opponents out of their rythm - he effectively manipulates time relative to his opponent, whilst every now and again leading them to where their own imbalance is taking them.

Theres more but I must rush.
Hope to talk later - input please.
Cheers
Peter

Last edited by Peter Seth : 06-28-2004 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:27 AM   #18
Michael Neal
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Well in Judo you have to get uke moving, you can not throw somoene who is much bigger than you if you are static. You have to either get them moving through kuzushi or use their own movement against them. It takes lots and lots of practice, especially when the other person is resisting and trying to throw you too.
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Old 07-19-2004, 04:20 PM   #19
j0nharris
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Hello Greg and all,

Lots of good stuff here. My only contribution is that the way I do and teach koshi waza there is no pushing up with tori's legs to lift uke.

Gambatte,
Perhaps Clark Sensei will demonstrate his koshi drills for us at the upcoming Aikiweb Friendship Seminar.


-jon

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 07-19-2004, 09:24 PM   #20
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

Hello Jon, koshi waza was not in my mind for this upcoming seminar, however, if you remind me during the weekend, I'd be happy to demonstrate some koshi waza and a drill system for practicing priniciple.

Looking forward to the weekend.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 07-29-2004, 08:42 PM   #21
senseimike
 
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Re: Koshi nage without strength?

It is important to remember to take balance. A larger uke will usually have a lower center of gravity. You must be sure to lower your hips below this center, enter deeply, and stretch the uke's arm as far as you can reach. Once you feel the uke start to lose balance, straighten your legs to complete the move, much like having them roll over an obstacle, then raising the height of the obstacle half way through the roll. With a much larger uke, you must commit to the technique, anything less will result in the uke causing nage to collapse.

I have an experience to share about performing koshinage on a larger uke. During a seminar with our Shihan koshinage techniques were shown. I paired up with a good friend that I trust to throw me in koshi and started in. My friend is much larger than myself (has a 200+ pound advantage on me). I decided to try to throw him, and join the elite club of folks that successfully completed a koshinage on him. With one of the guest Senseis (who is a mentor and friend of mine) watching on, I actually threw him. Excited and ready for another go, I executed another throw on the other side. Kaulukukui Sensei just smiled and shook his head. As I drove Sensei home from practice that night he commented on this feat. He asked how it felt to throw someone that big. I was still pretty pumped up from this, and of course said good.... except for a little strain in the back. His words were " I thought you were either very brave, or very stupid, now which one is it?" I replied "Both Sensei, brave for trying it once, stupid for trying it again." Guess this was the answer he was looking for. Just be careful in you attempts to throw a much larger uke.

Mike Taylor
Godan
Chief Instructor, Rising Star Aikido
South Bend, Nebraska, USA
www.risingstaraikido.com
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