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Old 05-08-2004, 11:36 AM   #26
Erik
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
akiy wrote:
Hi Drew,

Have you made the reasons why you need to take your water breaks known to the instructor(s) at the dojo?
Jun, I've raised this point before but it's the dojo which needs to take ownership on this issue. Every student should be asked a number of basic questions before they start training or at the bare minimum "are there any health concerns we need to be aware of"? If there are then the instructing staff, all of it, needs to be made aware of it. Of course, that would also mean the staff would have to get together and have meetings, and that instructors would have to reach minimal competence on certain health issues such as First Aid, CPR, and basic health risks.

Really it should go a lot deeper than that but too many dojos just let you walk in, sign up (maybe throw a waiver your way) and let you get on the mat.

While a wise student would go out of their way to make their problems known, if they know which they may not, the fact is that a "professional" organization would have policies in place to address this.

Frankly, I doubt 10%, I feel generous today, of the dojos in the United States could meet a professional standard on this issue.
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Old 05-09-2004, 04:40 PM   #27
Robert Cowham
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Having had a kidney stone during a visit to Japan in mid summer where I was training every day, I would definitely recommend water breaks as and when required! I presume that I am susceptible to such things, and it may have been coincidence, but so far haven't had a recurrence - it is not something to be recommended.

Look after yourselves!

Robert
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Old 05-09-2004, 09:30 PM   #28
kironin
 
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
However, (2) I would expect you to use your aikido training as a means to improve your physical and spiritual health, so I would expect you to train to a level beyond that which you thought you were capable of. I think this would be crucial for you—and I also think you would not be the best judge in this situation.
I could not disagree more with this.
This is a dangerous and irresponsible attitude to take as a teacher.
and I might add arrogant also.

maybe you can get away with it in Japan.

Craig
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Old 05-09-2004, 10:04 PM   #29
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Me, I would like to take not only water break, but also sandwich break. I can be very dangerous for other aikidoka with empty stomach. Often I would like to chat with my friends on the mat, do you think it will be possible? If I don't chat I get headaches and become very depresif. I have a paper form my doctor to prove it.

Could someone recommend any instructor willing me in his dojo,please?

Thanks, folks!!

Nagababa

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Old 05-09-2004, 10:19 PM   #30
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Both Craig and Janet;

Nothing like taking a piece out of a post and running with it.

Budo training is about going beyond your perceived abilities and reaching your potential. It is the teachers role to identify where the line between those two states are at any point in time. You can bow out of the training at any time.

Last edited by PeterR : 05-09-2004 at 10:22 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-09-2004, 11:11 PM   #31
jasmine_sun
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Personally, I think that a student should be permitted to take a sip of water if he or she is not feeling well, or for medical reasons, or even take abreak if he or she is feeling sick. But I feel that unless you feel unwell in the midst of training, you shouldn't train in the first place if you are feeling sick.

As for aikidokas wanting to get a water break as and when they feel like it in the middle of the class, I think that is unaceptable. Training in a martial art requires discipline and endurance, which might be what Peter Goldsbury is trying to say. It shows a real lack of discipline and disrespect to O Sensei as well should any aikidoka just go off and on the mat as and when they like in the middle of the class.
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Old 05-09-2004, 11:19 PM   #32
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
kironin wrote:
I could not disagree more with this.
This is a dangerous and irresponsible attitude to take as a teacher.
and I might add arrogant also.

maybe you can get away with it in Japan.

Craig
Well, again, we will have to disagree.

I think that if you read the complete post, it would be clear that I am referring to Japan and to my own dojo.

Further, I do not think it is a matter of "getting away with it", in Japan. I think the attitude I decribed in the entire post, not just the paragraph you chose to quote, is common here and also quite reasonable.

I know many instructors here and see/have seen their relationships with their own teachers, including the Founder himself and both his son and grandson.

But, of course, this is an Internet bulletin board and YMMV.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-09-2004, 11:20 PM   #33
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

The trouble occurs, IMO, when the vibe of the dojo interferes with a student's health. Guiding students to a place beyond their perceived limit should be balanced by a deliberate effort on the part of the teaching staff to give the student head room to step off of the mat. Students should be pushed, but they should also be told to trust themselves and that there is no shame, weakness, or failure in taking a break when needed. From my experience, it is easier to find places in which instructors push, but a bit harder to find a dojo in which taking personal breaks is safe from mental baggage.
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Old 05-09-2004, 11:52 PM   #34
Chris Li
 
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
Further, I do not think it is a matter of "getting away with it", in Japan. I think the attitude I decribed in the entire post, not just the paragraph you chose to quote, is common here and also quite reasonable.
Common in the US too, I think, isn't that what coaches in most sports do? I see high school football coaches trying to push their players to new heights all the time...

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-10-2004, 01:43 AM   #35
Orihime
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

It also depends on the students, don't you think? Some really cannot get past certain limits, so what's the good to push them too hard? This said, being pushed is often good for motivation and endurance.
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Old 05-10-2004, 10:31 AM   #36
Janet Rosen
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
PeterR wrote:
Both Craig and Janet;

Nothing like taking a piece out of a post and running with it.

Budo training is about going beyond your perceived abilities and reaching your potential. It is the teachers role to identify where the line between those two states are at any point in time. You can bow out of the training at any time.
Hi, Peter. I don't at all disagree with your statement about the role of the teacher.
I simply disagree with applying it to the topic of this thread, a student deciding when he/she is in physical need of rest or fluid. Peter G and I have already agreed that we disagree on that point.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-10-2004, 10:53 AM   #37
giriasis
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Drew,

Was I able to help you with my answer? I know there is some high quality aikido in South Florida but some of the schools in the Miami area are kindof strict etiquette wise. We have people who travel from Miami and Boca to train with us and they've been training with Peter for years. If you want to check out our dojo, why not come by and take a class. We have two classes on Saturday and Sunday so it could be worth the drive to try us out. I think you will find that Peter (he is only "Sensei" on the mat) may accomodate you.

Last edited by giriasis : 05-10-2004 at 10:55 AM. Reason: addressed the wrong person

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:21 AM   #38
Erik
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Chris Li wrote:
I see high school football coaches trying to push their players to new heights all the time...
Which is why a couple of times a year we get an article about a football player dying. Not allowing a student to get fluid has nothing to do with pushing them to new heights.
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:35 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Which is why a couple of times a year we get an article about a football player dying. Not allowing a student to get fluid has nothing to do with pushing them to new heights.
Well, I think it can, as long as it is done within reason. If I have a student who has a specific problem, and he lets me know about it, I would try to accomodate. They would still need to let the instructor know when they leave the mat...that's just good safety. What if someone leaves the mat, goes in the bathroom, and no one notices that they left or haven't returned? What if they are lying passed out in the bathroom? I was taught that as an instructor, it would be my responsibility to be aware of people leaving and entering the mat space. Period. And if someone has a problem, then they would follow the same rules...you need to leave the mat...fine...just advise the instructor.

Frankly, I thought the public response to Peter G.'s post was quite rude. Rather unusual for this forum.

Ron

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Old 05-10-2004, 11:41 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Yes I actually did explain my situation to one of the sensei. I wanted to come into class late, figuring I could handle half a class. Unfortunately she, like many sensei, did not like this idea.
My own teachers, while probably understanding the need for water in your situation, would not like someone coming in late on a regular basis. One of the foundations of aikido is the idea of harmony, and the format of an aikido class actually fosters this idea. Everyone starts together with reigi, they warm up together all in the same way, they 'sink up' in a sense before technique practice even begins. Many teachers would find this unity of spirit very important. I think of it as quite a separate issue from taking a water break at the edge of the mat when needed for medical reasons. I really can't imagine being made a 'pariah' for that...
Ron

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Old 05-10-2004, 12:17 PM   #41
Erik
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Ron, I'm not sure why you brought up the asking part of leaving the mat. I'm fine with that, however, I think your example is, at the least, extreme.

Proper hydration is commonsense fitness thinking. And, we are not in a discipline where learning to fight without fluid is terribly relevant. I could understand a special forces soldier, who might wind up in extreme situations, but even there they'd go to great lengths to make sure people are properly hydrated in the field, lest they die. There is just about nothing to be gained by limiting people's hydration and much is put at risk.

Quote:
Frankly, I thought the public response to Peter G.'s post was quite rude. Rather unusual for this forum.
Honestly, I think some response is deserved. Consider what he did in this thread. He made a medical decision which was basically that Drew should train through a health problem at his instructor's determination. You are probably thinking that he didn't know about the health issue when he made that statement but that's precisely the point, he didn't think to ask. He didn't think to ask because he's not qualified to make the determination he argued that instructors should be making. It's a dangerous path to walk.

By the way, I realize that I can be a bit blunt at times, or even most times, but when I read stuff like I read in this thread it frustrates me no end. I'm amazed the topic even comes up.
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:35 PM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

I can't believe (having met Peter) that he would not work with the student, and I saw nothing in his post that suggested that. Now maybe its just because I've met him, and have corresponded with him for at least two or three years now.

As to the situation I described...I know for a fact it has happened. Your mileage may vary..but extreme or not the reality is that if I teach, my teacher holds me responsible for the well being of the class.

As far as proper hydration is concerned, we are told to show up to class hydrated (peeing clear). THAT is showing proper concern for yourself. If you have a medical problem, then that would have to be taken into consideration as well.

Come on, I'm all for being blunt (you know me ) but Peter G. has been THE most useful, polite contributer on ANY of these boards for how many years now? There's gotta be a better way...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:42 PM   #43
akiy
 
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I can't believe (having met Peter) that he would not work with the student, and I saw nothing in his post that suggested that.
He did write that he would let his student(s) take breaks and such:
Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
(1) if you were in my own dojo and you told me that because of your physical condition you needed to take breaks, water etc, this would not be a problem.
Although he does go on to say that, "(2) I would expect you to use your aikido training as a means to improve your physical and spiritual health, so I would expect you to train to a level beyond that which you thought you were capable of. I think this would be crucial for you—and I also think you would not be the best judge in this situation," his first thoughts seem, to me at least, to override his second...
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Come on, I'm all for being blunt (you know me ) but Peter G. has been THE most useful, polite contributer on ANY of these boards for how many years now? There's gotta be a better way...
Agreed.

-- Jun

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Old 05-10-2004, 01:30 PM   #44
Erik
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I can't believe (having met Peter) that he would not work with the student, and I saw nothing in his post that suggested that.
Not having met him I would be very surprised if he didn't work with the student. And, I think his overall point about pushing someone is valid. For the most part I think he's probably a hell of a teacher and pretty damn decent guy.

However, he did write the following:

Quote:
(2) I would expect you to use your aikido training as a means to improve your physical and spiritual health, so I would expect you to train to a level beyond that which you thought you were capable of. I think this would be crucial for you?and I also think you would not be the best judge in this situation.
This is almost the same logic used by football coaches when someone dies on them. They are just pushing their players to go beyond what they thought they were capable of. Football players dying from this practice has a long history and it's only been recently, due to a variety of reasons, that this has changed. I suspect that it was more common 30 years ago but we'd likely never have heard about it.

Plus, he wrote it without full knowledge of the situation which can partially be a pass but is also indicitive of exactly why the situation is dangerous. A coach, or instructor, may not have a full knowledge of their student's health situation. While I think most students address this at least informally, "Sensei, I'm diabetic", without a process in place a student can slip through the cracks. And, it's possible that an instructor might not even know what to do with a diabetic student in an emergency. In my experience, the processes in place, if any, are often not sufficient.

By the way, having been in a semi-emergency situation in a dojo, and having done everything wrong you could do wrong, I'm sensitive, maybe overly so, to the issue.

Quote:
As to the situation I described...I know for a fact it has happened. Your mileage may vary..but extreme or not the reality is that if I teach, my teacher holds me responsible for the well being of the class.
I don't disagree with this. I guess, mostly, I was confused as to how it wound up in the discussion.

Quote:
As far as proper hydration is concerned, we are told to show up to class hydrated (peeing clear). THAT is showing proper concern for yourself. If you have a medical problem, then that would have to be taken into consideration as well.
This is part of your new student orientation? If so, I'm not only impressed, I'm astounded. You are to be commended if you go into that kind of detail with a new student.

Quote:
Come on, I'm all for being blunt (you know me ) but Peter G. has been THE most useful, polite contributer on ANY of these boards for how many years now?
That's certainly true but does that mean he should be exempt from being challenged?
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Old 05-10-2004, 01:53 PM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
Not having met him I would be very surprised if he didn't work with the student. And, I think his overall point about pushing someone is valid. For the most part I think he's probably a hell of a teacher and pretty damn decent guy.

However, he did write the following: ...
Sure, he wrote it in the context of his entire post, which made clear he had no problems working with the student. For his trouble, Craig decided to be rude and confrontational.


Quote:
This is almost the same logic used by football coaches when someone dies on them. They are just pushing their players to go beyond what they thought they were capable of. Football players dying from this practice has a long history and it's only been recently, due to a variety of reasons, that this has changed. I suspect that it was more common 30 years ago but we'd likely never have heard about it.
Sorry, but I just don't see it. Have you read Peter's posts on aikido journal about hikari geiko as practiced at many universities in japan? This is exactly the kind of thing he would be against! I can't speak for the football coaches, but Peter specifically said he would work with the student...maybe that would mean pushing them in other ways **besides denying water**.

Quote:
Plus, he wrote it without full knowledge of the situation which can partially be a pass but is also indicitive of exactly why the situation is dangerous.
Well of course he did...WE ALL DID...EVERY POST IN THE THREAD IS WITHOUT FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THIS PERSON'S SITUATION.

Quote:
In my experience, the processes in place, if any, are often not sufficient.
I don't know if it is still in place, but at the main dojo of our association, it was REQUIRED at least two years ago that instructors be certified in CPR. Now, I realize that that is probably a minimum requirement, but it sure sounds like common sense to me.

Quote:
By the way, having been in a semi-emergency situation in a dojo, and having done everything wrong you could do wrong, I'm sensitive, maybe overly so, to the issue.
I can definately understand that...but then your posts weren't the ones that got me going...

Quote:
I don't disagree with this. I guess, mostly, I was confused as to how it wound up in the discussion.
Part of the discussion in the thread was about whether the student could leave the mat/class to get a drink. I stated in our organization they could, but would have to get the instructor's permission (basically notify the instructor). I then went on to explain WHY. For safety reasons.


Quote:
This is part of your new student orientation? If so, I'm not only impressed, I'm astounded. You are to be commended if you go into that kind of detail with a new student.
With all students, new and old. Is this unusual? I thought Budo was about being the best you can at any given moment. To do that you should be prepared. If its hot, drink water while you can. If its cold, dress appropriately. If you're going to train all day without eating, get up early and eat a good meal with time to digest it before training. I never thought this stuff was rocket science... I learned most of this attitude in the boy scouts fer christ's sake.

Quote:
That's certainly true but does that mean he should be exempt from being challenged?
Challenge is not only ok, I think Peter himself would welcome it. I also think it would be nice if people would read the entire post, and not try to put words in his mouth that he didn't say...

After all, if people had questions about what he said, or didn't understand, they could have {gasp} asked a question first before jumping all over him.

But hey, that's just how I roll...
As always, your mileage may vary...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-10-2004, 02:25 PM   #46
Chris Li
 
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
Which is why a couple of times a year we get an article about a football player dying. Not allowing a student to get fluid has nothing to do with pushing them to new heights.
Well, Ron Tisdale has already answered this in much more detail, but Peter never mentioned anything about denying people hydration - in fact the first section of his post specifically states that he would allow breaks for such things.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-10-2004, 02:42 PM   #47
Erik
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Sure, he wrote it in the context of his entire post, which made clear he had no problems working with the student. For his trouble, Craig decided to be rude and confrontational.
Craig can be that way. He's one of those ki guys and you know how they get.

Quote:
Well of course he did...WE ALL DID...EVERY POST IN THE THREAD IS WITHOUT FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THIS PERSON'S SITUATION.
Not quite so simple. I jumped on this point because it's what "could" happen in this sort of situation. This topic has come up before and an instructor took the stance that it was traditional to go without water. The intent was pretty clear in that case . I also once sat through a lecture in a dojo on this very topic. I lit the instructor up after class on it by the way. Yes, I can be this way in the real world too.

What was interesting about this, and one other similar experience, is that there has been some organizational consistency on the topic. While the organization is unrelated to Peter Goldsbury, in any way, I felt compelled to raise a bit of a stink because there is a similar implication in his post.

Note that he did talk about not taking breaks at Hombu during 50 to 55 minute classes. I can do 50 minute runs or classes (assuming it's not all out) without water but that's about the limit. The instructor I semi-chewed out often ran classes for more than 1-1/2 hours under the impression that the Japanese didn't take water breaks.

Quote:
I don't know if it is still in place, but at the main dojo of our association, it was REQUIRED at least two years ago that instructors be certified in CPR. Now, I realize that that is probably a minimum requirement, but it sure sounds like common sense to me
To me as well and after my FUBAR I got all of that tightened up but prior to that I taught plenty of classes without those things. I know I'm not the only one to have done so.

Quote:
I can definately understand that...but then your posts weren't the ones that got me going...
Damn! I hope I'm not losing my touch.

Quote:
With all students, new and old. Is this unusual? I thought Budo was about being the best you can at any given moment. To do that you should be prepared. If its hot, drink water while you can. If its cold, dress appropriately. If you're going to train all day without eating, get up early and eat a good meal with time to digest it before training. I never thought this stuff was rocket science... I learned most of this attitude in the boy scouts fer christ's sake.
Teaching about urine color in regards to hydration IS rarer.

Another aspect that gets me going in regards to water is how badly it seems to be misunderstood across the board. Even the 8 glasses of water thing was made up by some guy in the 40's who thought it sounded like a good number. Then you read about trainers recommending incredible amounts of water for weight loss, or, football coaches denying water to players or holding camps in 100 degree weather to toughen their players and you understand why I'm surprised to see someone talking about urine color and hydration.
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Old 05-10-2004, 03:08 PM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Well, I've never dieted in my life (if I'm getting too heavy I simply try to exercise more and eat less), and I've never played football. So I wouldn't know too much about those things.

As to the instructor you chewed out...I don't see a connection between him and what Peter said. But hey, I've been wrong before!

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-10-2004, 03:09 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Not usually...so there are exceptions.

And he specifically would make them...

Seems cut and dried to me...
RT

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Old 05-10-2004, 03:18 PM   #50
Erik
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Re: Less Strict Dojos

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
As to the instructor you chewed out...I don't see a connection between him and what Peter said. But hey, I've been wrong before!
The first lines of Peter's post involved not taking breaks at Hombu. The instructor I mentioned used Japan as a basis for his argument about not taking water breaks. Hence the two link together in my somewhat warped mind. The problem is that the local guy was possibly running his students longer and harder than Japan does.

To anyone reading this, I deleted a post in between Ron's two posts.
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