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Old 04-17-2004, 01:10 PM   #1
Motivation1
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versus a Jab

I know this question has probably been asked about 50 times, but i'm going to ask it anyways. How would someone From deal with a boxer? I don't see how the aikidoka would be able to deal with a quick jab.

I know the question about actually being able to use it comes up a lot, but in going through the posts I didn't see anyone mention vs a boxer..
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Old 04-17-2004, 01:25 PM   #2
DanielR
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Eric, you might want to review the following threads:

aikido against a boxer

defending against a boxer

Daniel
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Old 04-17-2004, 01:26 PM   #3
Motivation1
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Thanks
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Old 04-17-2004, 01:30 PM   #4
bob_stra
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I think this still works...

http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/marc...t/martialarts/

click on "segal parry" mpeg (at least, I think it's that one. Too lazy to download now ;-)

edited: Whoops - wrong clip after all. But that kinda movement - cover, enter, grab, go behind. The "bong sau" like movement (from Wing Chun) is what I was talking about. However it's somewhat unclear on this clip.


Last edited by bob_stra : 04-17-2004 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 04-17-2004, 01:51 PM   #5
disabledaccount
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I used to be an amateur boxer. Jabs are tough because they're so quick. Tough but not impossible. Think of the jab as a quick punch thats NOT thrown from the center. It's all arm which means it'll be hard to get his center even if you can somehow connect with his arm so forget it. Just because you aren't latched onto his arm dosen't mean you can't take his center and throw him, however.

The key is to help him move in the direction his center's going, not his punch.Irimi nage would be a good bet, or you can catch him under the armpit for kokyu nage or kata gatemi. He'll probably tense up and land funny, wich is good for you, bad for him.
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Old 04-17-2004, 03:23 PM   #6
AsimHanif
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With all due respect, I will have to disagree with Bodhi.

As a boxer you learn to throw every punch from your center including and especially a jab. The purpose of a jab is to get you (your center) closer to the target as well as distract your opponent. So a good boxer does not lunge or give up his center. He or she will only throw the finishing blow when he or she is in range to make difinitive contact. This is no different than aikido principles. The problem is that there unfortunately are not a lot of good boxers going into aikido so many aikido will get an unrealistic view of how to deal with this. The truth is it is not about a particular technique to use but your timing has to be very good.
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Old 04-17-2004, 04:00 PM   #7
aikidoc
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On a bootleg tape of a Seagal seminar I saw from Santa Barbara California I saw him do something where he picked the jab up on the pull back phase catching the hand/thumb area and putting a thumb lock on. Don't know how well it would work with a fast person.
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Old 04-17-2004, 05:10 PM   #8
disabledaccount
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Asim,

Of course a good boxer will make mincemeat of a poor aikidoka, but that's hardly the issue. Perhaps instead of saying they don't throw punches from center, I should've said a boxer's jab dosen't throw the center into the punch. There's a big difference, I know.

At any rate, the mentioned techniques are examples of ways an aikidoka can negate the boxer's jab advantage wich happens to be lack of over-commitment of center and speed.

As a boxer, when you throw a punch you're generally shuffling in toward your target, but your jabs are coming out with very little if any wind up. They're usually set ups for a power shot.

Instead of waiting for the power shot as someone on one of the above links suggested, I would recommend using the boxer's forward motion as the impetus for a throw at the shoulder etc. rather than focus on his arms as basic aikido responses to punches tend to.

Sure, ideally your technique (or complete improvisation of such) will be based on the relationship between uke and nage as it unfolds real time. But irimi, kata gatame, or any of the hundreds of variations of kokyu nage are examples of solid aikido techniques that would be useful here, primarily because they rely on principles of taking uke's forward motion from any point on his/her body and turning it into a bad time to lose one's balance.

Just my opinion, hope this clarifies.
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Old 04-17-2004, 05:13 PM   #9
disabledaccount
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Oops, and I forgot to mention they're also naturals for the clinch!
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:23 PM   #10
Greg Jennings
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I never want to be in a reactive mode but rather in a proactive one.

...lead them into giving me something.

...show them something that isn't really there.

...show them something that they expect but change it into something that works for me.

...take them someplace that's familiar to me but unknown to them.

...make them think they have space to do something, when it's very easy to take it away.

...get them to grasp at a false straw.

etc. etc.

To me, these are all lessons that are there in the 31 jo partner practice if we open our eyes to see them.

FWLIW,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-17-2004, 09:54 PM   #11
shihonage
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Drive into their stance with ikkyo stance (have your hand on their elbow but dont try to get the elbow up), before or as they're jabbing, and while keeping pressure on them with ikkyo, finalize the turn to ikkyo ura.

If he gets out of ikkyo, transition to nikkyo and sankyo.
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Old 04-18-2004, 01:11 AM   #12
Chris Birke
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Learn to box, then you will start to know.

I'd say a quick jab is just the tip of the iceburg, as most Aikido training doesn't deal with anything but the most simplistic attacks.

By the way, whats with using Stephen Segal movies as martial arts technique guides? That's just... so great.
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Old 04-18-2004, 04:01 AM   #13
TomanGaidin
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I think the Seagal movie being referred to is of an aikido seminar when he was still teaching, not one of his action movies.
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:46 AM   #14
actoman
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I am only a newbie but I would probably say a Shomen block into a tenkan Irimi Kokyunage throw. Just my 2 cents
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Old 04-18-2004, 09:43 AM   #15
paw
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Quote:
How would someone From deal with a boxer?
Step 1: Find a boxer

Step 2: boxer: dons gloves aikidoist: dons mouthgaurd, headgear

Step 3: Train

Step 4: Repeat steps 1 - 3 as needed

Regards,

Paul
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Old 04-18-2004, 10:24 AM   #16
SeiserL
 
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Boxers. Great fighters.

Jab?

Get off the line. From above go for Shayu-undo or Irimi-nage. From behind, Tenbin-nage. Slip it and follow the retraction path pushing the elbow towards the rear Kuzushi point Kokyu-nage. Hook the arm at the elbow, Irimi-tenkan, slap the fist, Kotegaeshi. Its a bit high usually, but extend it to take balance and take Shiho-nage Ura or Omote.

IMHO, understand the path and momentum of the strike, the Aikido concepts, and almost anything can be taken with almost any Waza.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-19-2004, 04:09 AM   #17
Mark Williams
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Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
I'd say a quick jab is just the tip of the iceburg, as most Aikido training doesn't deal with anything but the most simplistic attacks.
I can't agree with this. In the Aikido I have learnt we learn from wrist grabs, shoulder grabs, lapel grabs, punches, kicks, weapons attacks etc. However, all of this is unimportant. Training against different attacks only teaches us how to learn movement and body positioning. If your positioning and body movement are good then you can use this to find an advantageous position against any attack.

I don't see why we always have this conversation about defending from jabs. People seem to have the impression that boxers would naturally be in an advantageous position against Aikidoka. Why? What is so good about boxing? Why fight a boxer on his terms when you can force him to fight on yours?

Actually, why fight at all! But that's another argument...

Last edited by Mark Williams : 04-19-2004 at 04:11 AM. Reason: Found something to add!

What an interesting opinion, do you mind if I move into your cave?
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Old 04-19-2004, 08:35 AM   #18
Chad Sloman
 
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Re: versus a Jab

The reason I think a boxer would probably have an advantage over me is their training. Although we try to be as realistic as possible in our training, many of us can't go "all out" because we just aren't good enough yet. Boxers are in the ring at a very early point, as a sort of trial by fire which has a very steep learning curve. Sure, we may have more "tools" than a boxer, technique-wise; but in my case, a boxer's training will have an advantage over mine. Many of us (hopefully) will never know if our skill will be good enough against a boxer, but I won't wager it until I actually have to. But it is valid to ask, as to what we should do against a jab. And it is even more valid to try to train against it.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 04-19-2004, 08:37 AM   #19
paw
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Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
What is so good about boxing?
Sparring in a boxing gym will quickly answer your question.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 04-19-2004, 09:00 AM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
What is so good about boxing?
Fighting posture, shuffling entry, familiarity with striking while being struck, full resistance training (within set rules), conditioning.

That's about it...

It seems to be enough...

Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 04-19-2004 at 09:05 AM. Reason: forgot something

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-19-2004, 01:04 PM   #21
AsimHanif
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Re: versus a Jab

Bodhi,
I didn't say a good boxer will defeat a poor aikidoka. I was trying to convey that the same skills apply to both aikido and boxing. And again I disagree (unless I still don't understand you) that a jab doesn't get throw from your center. It does.
But all these so called techniques against a boxer or any other artist are merely theoretical. The best thing I can say is train with a legit boxer and get the experience (taking Pauls advice). Any technique will be useful if executed properly.
For example in boxing you learn to slip punches. No big deal. As an aikidoist we do the same thing (munetski iriminage). So against a jab, you slip it and execute whatever. But the trick to remember is after a boxer or any attacker throws one punch he is looking to throw again. So again theoretically any technique can work. The trick is to get actual experience. There is not a best or worst technique to use against a boxer. The most important thing I got from boxing was knowing how to relax. Getting hit and not tensing up or getting emotional. So while a jab is not designed to knock you out it can distract you if you are not used to getting hit. That is the one aspect of most aikido training that we don't usually experience. I think Chad nailed it on this.
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Old 04-19-2004, 03:50 PM   #22
GrazZ
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Re: versus a Jab

how about just keeping safe distance? to me a jab is something done up close, so just keep backing up or moving around so he has to go for the big wind up punch or lunge to hit you
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Old 04-19-2004, 05:18 PM   #23
Chris Birke
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Re: versus a Jab

"to me a jab is something done up close, so just keep backing up "

You'd be amazed to learn that boxers have a different idea about what a jab is! Although your opinion is valid, others might mistakenly pass it off as fact. This could cause serious problems if in fact they wern't just curious about the answer for the sake of philosophic discussion.

Mind the grumpiness, I'm hungry. =)
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Old 04-20-2004, 12:54 AM   #24
bob_stra
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Re: versus a Jab

Quote:
GrazZ wrote:
how about just keeping safe distance? to me a jab is something done up close, so just keep backing up or moving around so he has to go for the big wind up punch or lunge to hit you
(1) There are several types of jab. Not all of them are done from close up.

(2) Re: backing up -

Jab

You back up

*boxer grins*

Jab

You back up again

Overhand right

BANG! Lights out.

Boxing 101.

A jab is a "feeler" punch. It used to annoy, block / intercept another attack or to probe your opponent. *Usually* not a knockout blow by itself.

Backing up against a jab is just not smart. The simplest things to do are (1) diagonally angle off to the outside / inside ("slip" or irimi in aikido parlance) and / or (2) stop-hit it with a strike of your own ("jab catch"). Alternatively, (3) Tie up & grapple.

After you take his weapons away (hands), go nuts with whatever throw you want.

Backing up / circling forever etc will simply *not* work against a good boxer. I've tried it many, many times with poor results.
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Old 04-20-2004, 09:43 AM   #25
Ron Tisdale
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Re: versus a Jab

Backing up in a straight line is generally not a good idea against much of anything...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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