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Old 03-08-2005, 02:59 PM   #101
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

"fight like you train" is an interesting paradox. I would agree to an extent, but if you "train like you fight" you will develop some pretty bad affects and habits. It is important to train slowly and methodically at times, i'd say most of the time in order to learn prinicples and proper balance, posture, and movement. That said, it is important to train hard in order to develop the warrior spirit, physical and mental toughness necessary to fight...if that is your goal.

Right now I am nursing a bad case of "cauliflower ear" from training hard so wondering if it is worth it...thinking time over....yes it is!!!! having too much fun training.
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Old 06-20-2005, 01:12 PM   #102
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I have a few things to say.

to directly help the writer of this thread:

- basically make small bridges when he is winding up for a punch. do not reach for the arm, it just will mess you up, and set you up to get submitted. You just bounce your hips up to throw his weight in the direction of your head. This will cut all of his punching power, and make him rebalance. after you do this you can grab his arm if he posts it on the ground and you will be able to hook the foot on the same side and simply bridge to the side and get to his guard. then just work to stand up and get back to where you are strong.

I think crosstraining would be a smart thing for all martial artists.
- understand when i say this. you need to have a super strong base before you can built up, correct? So make whatever system you like more your base, and just learn enough of the other to escape "get by" This will make you a complete fighter
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Old 06-27-2005, 10:42 AM   #103
glennage
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

when someone has you in the mount theres not much you can do because their just gonna pound you. the best thing to do is try and work a choke and keep them close to you to avoid the strikes. i agree with whoever said take jiu jitsu, because there are ways of working submissions from this position if you know what you are doing. it wouldn't hurt to check out some Gracie BJJ videos as an aside if you don't wanna take up the art properly, the ones i've seen are great and very detailed.
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Old 06-27-2005, 02:23 PM   #104
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Aikido v Jujutsu?

Aikido is Jujutsu, but Jujutsu is not Aikido!

Osu!
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Old 06-27-2005, 02:49 PM   #105
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

IMHO, trying to choke someone while your mounted is not a good option. You need to escape. It is pretty hard to submit someone while they control your hips/center and the fight.

also, aikido contains elements of jujutsu since it was derived from it, but the fact that it is a DO art now, I would argue that Aikido is not jujutsu, and jujutsu is not aikido, they are two separate arts. If it were the case that aikido was jujutsu, then I wouldn't get mopped up by jujutsu guys all day long while learning jujutsu!
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:50 PM   #106
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I agree with Kevin. I"ve never seen a reliable sub you can work from under the mount. Your only option is to look to escape the position. Which is actually pretty easy on someone with little or no ground training, alot harder against an experienced BJJer. But if you're fighting an experienced BJJer you're in alot of trouble where ever you end up.
Glen maybe you're confusing mount with guard?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-04-2005, 05:38 PM   #107
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

dont let him touch you, tenkan out of it , just keep moving basically
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Old 07-05-2005, 05:03 AM   #108
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Paige,

I would agree that the ultimate solution is to do that. I try to do it everytime I can. The problem is unless you can "out run" your opponent, or if you stand and fight, as in practice, that distance is taken away either by you or your opponent. Do it right with aikido principles and it works well. However the speed of a real fight does not allow for perfect technique and we end up on the ground more often than not. It is good to know what to do from there until you can regain control.

Aikido is a wonderful art, but as practiced by most, does not answer all questions of fighting with irmi and tenkan. Nor should it, as it is a DO art meant to convey principles of dynamic movement.

Be careful not to confuse aikido with real fighting!
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Old 07-05-2005, 09:55 AM   #109
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Kevin,

I didnt mean u should run, what i meant was, keep moving away from his line of attack , and put him in yours. We practice doing things like this in shaolin , it is very effective in sparring, as for real life , theres only one way to find out.
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Old 07-05-2005, 10:50 AM   #110
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Paige,

I understand what you meant, and I agree. My point is this. You don't always have that luxury, especially at full speed.

There are two ways to find out. 1. a real fight. 2. replicating conditions as close as possible to a real fight.

Real fights can take many forms. from a testertone fight in a bar, to a real fight in which someone intends to inflict serious harm.

You can practice at full speed in a dojo within parameters. I personally have found more often than not that irmi tenkan or moving off the line does not always work, sometimes you mess up your timing and uke is able to "roll over you" and take your balance.

I don't disagree with you, I just caution against taking a cavalier stance of "just simply move off the line". It is not always an option.

I believe if your focus is outside of the "DO", and you want to prepare for all sides of empty hand fighting, then you need to address the full spectrum of fighting from stand up, closing the distance, takedowns, and ground fighting.

I have found, for myself as well, that it is easy to establish a paradigm within our own art of what works and doesn't work. It is a false sense of security. When we train only with those in our art it is easy to be lured into the perspective that "moving off the line" works everytime. Just need to be congnizant of the this when you train.

I recommend going to some local grappling schools in your area and mixing it up with them for an eye opener in moving off the line.

Again, it is correct, but my point is...does not always work for you!
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Old 07-05-2005, 11:57 AM   #111
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I realize that moving off the line does not work in all scenarios. But for the scenario that Sonny is describing, takedowns , i'm quite confident it would work. Grabbing the legs and throwing someone down requires prolonged contact, and if you continue to move off the line , he wont be able to touch you long enough to throw you down. And again im not just saying move off the line , im saying , move off the line , put your opponent in your line of attack and then attack your oppenent w/something other than a takedown.

It really all depends on the attack at hand.

-paige
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:02 PM   #112
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I went back and pulled the original question. Here it is from Sonny:

Quote:
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
the premise of his situation is 1. Full mount 2. He grabs you and trys to pull you down.

Full mount already assumes you are on the ground, so no amount of "side stepping" will solve this.

I will assume a "grab and try and pull you down" is some sort of clinch or modified clinch. Sure you can side step. O Soto Gari comes to mind. (Am I making the wrong assumption?)

Your presentation is "don't let him grab you at all" if I understand it correctly, not a good solution for this particular problem once he already has control of your center, or close to it.

I do agree that proper posture and movement and foot work can prevent this from happening, however it still does happen and we need good solutions to recover from it.

I respectfully disagree with your solution set to Sonny's question.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:19 PM   #113
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

i was only referring to the part of the question about the take down , i didnt say anything about the full mount.
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:53 PM   #114
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Thumbs down Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

[quote=Kevin Leavitt]


Quote:
I will assume a "grab and try and pull you down" is some sort of clinch or modified clinch. Sure you can side step. O Soto Gari comes to mind. (Am I making the wrong assumption?)
I had a challenge match against an Aikido black belt. When I applied the Gracie clinch, he tried to side step and do O-soto-gari. What he did not know is that the Gracie Jiu-jitsu clinch done properly has the Jiu-jitsu practitioner on the side of the adversary, hips lower than the adversary, and both legs are squeezing one of the legs of the adversary. So, if I am clinching my adversary and I am on his left side, then I am trapping his right arm in an overhook and trapping his left leg by pinching it with my knees. The leg trap from the clinch keeps the adversary from doing Judo throws like Uchi-mata (which most Judo guys try first when I lock on the clinch), Harai-goshi, and of course O-soto-gari.

Like I said, when I locked the clinch on he then, the Aikido black belt, tried to counter with O-soto, but it was too late. The throw attempt only caused him to stumble, and as he tried to keep from going down I threw him with Tani-otoshi, took the mount, then pinned him until he submitted (you don't have to punch a guy into submission if they do not know the escapes--you can simply apply one of several modified / suffocating pins--much more humane).

If you are going to use Aikido to stop Jiu-jitsu, then you must know what Jiu-jitsu has in mind for you. Jiu-jitsu has a plan, and they usually follow it to the letter. We call this plan text-book Jiu-jitsu. You can go to my web-site, www.kingsportjudo.com, and read a detailed analysis of the Jiu-jitsu fight plan under the 'Newsletter' button.

You need to study Jiu-jitsu tactics and techniques in order to get an idea what they need to win. Only when you have a clear understanding of your adversary's abilities can you begin to formulate counter-measures.

I teach Aikido, Jiu-jitsu, and Olympic Judo. I can tell you from experience that what makes Jiu-jitsu so effective is that the Gracies spent time learning how other Martial arts work, what they need to work, and then developed simple tactics to spoil their techniques. The Gracie clinch, for example, is an amazing tool. If you can acquire it in a real fight, then it shuts down boxers, kickers, Judo throws, free-style throws, and Greco-Roman throws. Once the clinch is established, you have to carefully pummel, that is a wrestling term, not to be taken in its boxing sense, your way to a more advantageous tie-up. Aikido students should learn basic wresting skills: how to pummel, how to shoot a double, how to shoot a single, how to sprawl when the guy shoots, how to use a front head lock, ect. Aikido students should also seek to learn some basic Judo. Knowing how to throw with the jacket, and how to block Judo throws is helpful. Most Judo throws resemble Aikido projections, so it will only help you.

I usually ask that my students take Judo and Jiu-jitsu for one year, before starting their study of Aikido. I have found, and my students have found as well, that Aikido is very clear to them after having a background in Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and ever Greco-Roman. I love Greco-Roman.




Quote:
I do agree that proper posture and movement and foot work can prevent this from happening, however it still does happen and we need good solutions to recover from it.
Again, if you are good at pummeling, then you can keep Jiu-jitsu guys from taking you down. You can't keep them from jumping guard. If they can get their hands on you, then usually they will jump to closed guard, butterfly guard, or even half-guard. So, you need to also learn how to open the guard and stand up and back away. Marc Laimon did this successfully against Ryron Gracie when they fought last year. Ryron could not keep Marc from getting up and backing away, which caused the fight to go back to the standing position. But, keep in mind that Marc Laimon is awesome at Jiu-jitsu. Cobra-Kai Jiu-jitsu rocks! Again, if you are going to beat Jiu-jitsu, then your going to have to study it thoroughly.

If you are doing Aikido for a hobby, then maybe you don't need to be interested in learning Jiu-jitsu or Judo. But if your interested in practical self-defense, then why not study Judo and Jiu-jitsu? There is no law in our land that prevents you from training at more than one dojo. Most guys I know that teach Judo also have a dan rank in Aikido as well. The three, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido go nicely together. Have fun!

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Last edited by Red Beetle : 07-20-2005 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 07-21-2005, 07:20 AM   #115
Ron Tisdale
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Nice post Monty...thanks for sharing. Don't forget, plenty of aikidoka are already former wrestlers, judoka etc. But I have to admit, the gracie clinch sounds like good stuff, and I can see why pummeling and backing out would be the high percentage move.

Best,
Ron

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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-22-2005, 09:19 AM   #116
Robert Rumpf
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
If you are doing Aikido for a hobby, then maybe you don't need to be interested in learning Jiu-jitsu or Judo. But if your interested in practical self-defense, then why not study Judo and Jiu-jitsu? There is no law in our land that prevents you from training at more than one dojo. Most guys I know that teach Judo also have a dan rank in Aikido as well. The three, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido go nicely together. Have fun!
I agree with almost all of this.

Monty, who did you learn your Aikido from, and how long did you train in Aikido for? Which style of Aikido do you teach your students? What styles does it derive from? Do you give them Aikido ranks, and do they go to Aikido seminars, or are they mainly encouraged to practice Aikido in their home dojo? Is Aikido taught as a side-bar, or are there actual formal Aikido classes?

Whom do you consider an Aikido expert, and who are the people who have taught you this Aikido that you know? I'd like to know so that if I ever run into them at a seminar, I can train with them. Do you ever go to Aikido seminars?

As for practical self-defense... for those of those truly interested in self-defense, I would recommend broadening the scope of your studies into other areas.

A true self defense expert would also be an expert in first aid (to stop the bleeding from all the knife fights that someone so interested in fighting would get into), know at least a little bit about the law (to keep out of jail from all the fighting, or keep from being sued in general), know about nutrition (got to keep that cholesterol down!), proficient in defensive driving (car accidents are a very common killer), be good with computers (watch out for that identity theft), be an expert marksmen, etc.

Personally, I am not interested in self-defense. I don't have time for studying so many things. Taking so many classes takes time away from my busy video-gaming schedule. I study Aikido for fun and as a hobby, and for what I perceive as being its positive effects in the other areas of my life. Oh, and maybe it helps with the cholesterol too.

Rob
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Old 07-22-2005, 12:46 PM   #117
Paula Lydon
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

~~Done both. Ultimately--beyond technique--apples and oranges~~

~~Paula~~
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Old 07-22-2005, 02:03 PM   #118
Adam Alexander
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
1)If you are going to use Aikido to stop Jiu-jitsu, then you must know what Jiu-jitsu has in mind for you...You need to study Jiu-jitsu tactics and techniques in order to get an idea what they need to win. Only when you have a clear understanding of your adversary's abilities can you begin to formulate counter-measures.

2)But if your interested in practical self-defense, then why not study Judo and Jiu-jitsu?
Regarding your story about the Aikidoka--his Aikido failed before you got the clinch.

1)Shioda, in "Aikido Shugyo," says that if you train against specific techniques, then evertime someone comes out with a new technique, you'll be in trouble. That's why Aikido trains against more than techniques--it trains to understand movement--Aikido by itself teaches everthing you need to know--as a tool for self-improvement or defense.

2)Because the time you waste memorizing and practicing those techniques would be better utilized memorizing and practicing your 1000's of Aikido techniques.

I'm not saying that Judo and Ju-Jutsu aren't valuable. Nor am I saying that Aikido's better (I do believe it is, but that's a matter of faith so really doesn't matter). I'm just saying that unless you're proficient with ALL Aikido techniques, you're not ready to move on.

I'd also say (however, with this I'm really talking out the wrong one) that you probably shouldn't take on another art before you meet the same criteria in Judo, Ju-Jutsu or any other art.


BTW, the original question about being in a clinch or getting your legs grabbed...if it got that far, relative to Aikido, you've already failed (atleast at my level of training it has...if it were me going down, I'd say that I didn't maintain distance).

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-22-2005 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 07-22-2005, 02:23 PM   #119
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Robert,

We asked Monty about this question in another thread about a month ago. He refused/ignored to answer any questions about his lineage etc.
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Old 07-22-2005, 02:30 PM   #120
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Jean,

You should really try and study with some practicioners of other arts like jiujitsu. You will find the training methodology is not all about memorizing techniques. Muscle memory...yes. Just like in aikido.

I kinda equate aikido to academia. There are business professors that can tell you all about the economic theory of how to make a million dollars...then there are the "drop outs" who can actually do it. They may not understand the principles or the theory, but have the intuition, experience, and the common sense necessary to make it work for real.

On aikido failing: It is nice to have some breadth of experience that can compensate when your "aikido" fails...whatever that really means!
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Old 07-23-2005, 01:06 PM   #121
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
1)You should really try and study with some practicioners of other arts like jiujitsu. You will find the training methodology is not all about memorizing techniques. Muscle memory...yes. Just like in aikido.

2)I kinda equate aikido to academia. There are business professors that can tell you all about the economic theory of how to make a million dollars...then there are the "drop outs" who can actually do it. They may not understand the principles or the theory, but have the intuition, experience, and the common sense necessary to make it work for real.

3)On aikido failing: It is nice to have some breadth of experience that can compensate when your "aikido" fails...whatever that really means!
1)To me, I think it's better to spend that time on your own techniques. When you've got your own techniques down...move on to more techniques.

2)Agreed. I think that's the case for all arts. However, the drop-out, although succesful, will only be able to explain how to repeat the achievement with the same circumstances...not understand the principal so that he/she can apply in under many different situations.

I see that all the time with Aikido. Folks who repeat that technique but have no grasp of it. These are the teachers I avoid...they're the ones stuck in "the paradigm of forms" (that is the Bruce Lee quote, isn't it?).

I also believe that's what we are seeing when people talk about techniques "not working." Those are your millionaires. They understand the technique works nice here, but they don't know how it can be made to work there.

3)I don't know. That's one of those things I've been wrestling with since I read it in one of your posts a while back.

For me, I think if someone is able to get me down, they're way beyond the rudimentary skill level. In that case, what's the sense to have been training BJJ or whatever part-time (PT might extend your time before going out, but you're still going out) when your full-time gig didn't keep you out of trouble?

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't train in other stuff...just that you should know your own first...and know it well.
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Old 07-23-2005, 03:46 PM   #122
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Good post Jean,

Here was the big paradigm shift for me.....

I was training a few officers in my battalion in aikido about a year ago, kinda dismissing the ground fighitng that the army is involved in as many aikidoka do because I felt it was very stupid to fight on the ground. Still feel that way, but I have a deeper understanding now of the dynamics of ground fighting, and also the dynamic it takes to train masses of soldiers for situational training.

What happened to me is I had a SGT in my Battalion that was really skilled in MMA, Judo, and BJJ in particular. We had the typically aikido/ground fighting discussion. It ended with us both doning mouth pieces, sticks, and MMA gloves and fighting.

Of course, we ended on the ground, and I had my ass handed to me. Later this year, I had a guy complete the two month intense Army combatives course with no prior experience in fighting or MA, he held his own against me. It was very humiliating and an eye opener.

My aikido training serves me well, especially in weapons fighting, it also allowed me to learn BJJ fairly rapidily and I am know miles ahead of others because of my understanding of kokyu, ki, posture etc.

The biggest lessons I have learned.

1. Know what you are looking for out of martial arts. Adapt your training to reach that goal.
2. TMA tend to be parochial and lend to "group think". If you are training to be a soldier, MMA guy or, a Cop, you may want to consider schools that are geared towards that.
3. If you are looking for BUDO or following the martial way..then TMA, like aikido is the ticket.
4. Constantly look inward to yourself and make sure you are being honest with your training
5. Be very careful in falling into the trap of what "realistic" is. Aikido, BJJ, Krav Maga and all arts have their own paradigm of what "realistic" is. None of them is entirely right in their training approach. If realistic training is your goal...you will have to work hard and question often to make sure you are accomplishing your goals!

Good discussion Jean.
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Old 07-23-2005, 05:00 PM   #123
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
1)To me, I think it's better to spend that time on your own techniques. When you've got your own techniques down...move on to more techniques.
...

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't train in other stuff...just that you should know your own first...and know it well.
I would like to support Jean's approach here. From my experience just too many Aikidoka don't put in the effort to understand the application of Aikido principles to "fighting" or real physical conflict. They often prefer to be "bottle fed" by their Instructors instead of applying themselves to derive what it is they need from the training. Oftentimes the reason for this is because the training methods that develop these sorts of skills are not often used in Aikido dojo, if at all.

However imho this is no reason why the individual should not do their own research and training with a "combative" (not in a military sense necessarilly) mindset or goal in place. In my early Kyu days I would take almost every technique we practiced at home or after class and strip it down to its principles and play with it to find ways of it working under serious resistance and extreme force conditions because for me it was, and still is important to know how things would work in a practical sense, regardless of what was being taught on the day.

I think that a lot of folks who practice Aikido miss a lot of the obvious combat applications since thesse things are often not stressed. But as Jean says, if you learn your own stuff well enough it will work for you. The thing is, a lot of Aikidoka don't approach training with the mindset of the typical Jujutsuka, Judoka etc. who expect at some point to test his skills and knowledge of principles on a trained, resisting opponent. It is also important to realise that no one system has all the answers and that ultimately "fighting prowess" comes down to whatever you can do successfully when "it" happens for real and is not defined by any one style or method except your own.

Many get their butt handed to them the first few times and assume that the art is lacking when it is their training methodology, approach and mindset that needs the work. It is interesting to see that among BJJ, JJJ, Judo etc. folks that when an Aikidoka tosses them around a bit or pins them that they don't assume their art is at fault but seek to fix their personal flaws through truthful self evaluation and hard training. I think if a lot more Aikidoka had this approach there would be a lot less question as to Aikido's practical usage and more answers regarding any personal obstacles encountered towards technical proficiency in a free fighting format as done by BJJ, Judo et al.

Just my thoughts. When you don't like the image the mirror presents, fix the image, don't break or tarnish the mirror imho.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 07-23-2005, 05:53 PM   #124
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Just a few contributions:

Kevin, great story, but the concept works both ways. My sensei was a national karate champion at 17 back in the 70's when he went into the USMC. After bootcamp he joined the Recon. During his time in Recon school his cheif hand to hand combat instructor asked for anyone who had martial arts experience to step foward. About 5 guys stepped foward, including my sensei. Then the instructor told them to attack him with everything they had. Turns out that the instructor was a black belt in Aikido. Not only did none of the trainees touch him, the threw them around like ragdolls until they stopped attacking. My sensei was stunned about this, that his entire life of MA experience had not done him a bit of good against this guy, and so he started training Aikido.

On another note, I think one of the reasons that people tend to get into sticky situations and get their butt handed to them is just lack of experience. I know a number of black belts in Karate and TKD schools who have been beat by the random guy and started questioning their art immediately afterwords, especially the TKD people since TKD has such a bad reputation for reality. What it probably boils down to, IMHO, is these people have just never been hit with real intent behind it. Not specifically saying that they have never been hit, but that they just are not psychologically prepared for what could happen and that once they get a taste of somehting they have no schema for it rocks their world and they just go into shutdown mode. I submit that the more prepared person will always beat the more trained person.
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Old 07-23-2005, 06:01 PM   #125
wendyrowe
Dojo: Aikidog Aikikai
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
My sensei was a national karate champion at 17 back in the 70's
One thing I've learned from training and helping teach at a Sport Karate dojo is that in general what wins national karate championships is good-looking technique rather than technique that is the most effective in a fight. So the champs have very good body dynamics within the parameters of their training, but there's a whole world of stuff with which they lack experience. And unless you're talking about sparring, the championships are based on forms rather than improvisation in the face of an attack -- so no wonder they couldn't cope.
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