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Old 06-20-2004, 09:21 AM   #51
csinca
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I agree with what Matt and Micheal have written.

Matt, I didn't mean to infer that any BJJ guys are likely to start a fight or attack someone. I hope it didn't come across that way!

chris
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Old 06-27-2004, 09:44 PM   #52
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

This has been a very interesting string to read. I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives that folks have offered.
Having trained both with aikido and bjj I have to say I'm happy to have learned both. if you want to compete then go with BJJ, if not aikido is good. Funny, I would have thought that I would have used BJJ in hostile situations which I find myself in occasionally. Each time it's been aikido and it's been motor response, the situations were over be for I realized what I was doing ( thank goodness) and only after did I realize what technique was employed and it didn't even seem as if it was me doing it. Also, the efficiently subdued nobody was permanently injured. I have never used BJJ but I would never want to go into a situation, especially with a trained fighter without my bjj training. A good technician is likely not to come in committed with an initial attack and so far this is all I've faced in the real world. If that is the case aikido is likely going to be difficult to apply and if I end up on the ground, well with all respect to aikido I'm going with BJJ. I hope that never comes to pass, and that is, I think aikido.
I train in a traditional aikido environment and I don't think It would be appropriate to bring BJJ into our dojo and would never want to be disrespectful toward my teacher. How do other aikido practitioners see that thought? However I would strongly encourage aikidoka to spend a little time with an established BJJ practitioner. Actually sambo and a few other similar grappling arts would be similar if BJJ was not available.
I trained in BJJ quite a while ago before it was popular in the US. It seems that there is a lot of it around now. If you do decide to train be careful when choosing a training center.

cheers

John
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Old 01-03-2005, 04:13 AM   #53
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
Is "ground fighting" another reason we train kokyu dosa and suwari waza in Aikido? It just occured to me reading this thread that if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"

I've never had anyone try to grapple with me in a serious fashion. Brother's are good for rough-housing but nothing serious. I should think if you can avoid the pin, despite being taken to the ground, you should be able to manuver and start some suawari waza and pin their butts with ease... granted you've trained enough in it.

2 cents
Actually, it is quite hard to get up on your knees if you are on your back and your opponent is in the mount, and has a weight and/or strength advantage - unless you know how to reverse, leverage or fight your way back to the kneeling position.
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Old 01-03-2005, 11:22 AM   #54
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Get Off The Line Of Attack
:d
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Old 01-03-2005, 10:00 PM   #55
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert?
You tap your opponent, causing him to instinctively let you go and stand up... I mean, sometimes you stop mid-technique when you hear sensei clapping and shouting "Yame!", right? And your uke murmurs "Thank God..."

Sorry... couldn't help it... Saw a similar scene in an anime...


Regards,
Joezer

I AM in shape... Round is a shape...
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:29 AM   #56
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I personally recommend BJJ to any women looking for MA to avoid rape, or any prison guards. As a matter of fact, I think it should be offered in grade schools. Those are the most realistic situation where people frequently need those skills. I'm male, over the age of 12, and I don't work in a prison so I agree with George sensei that is it rather unlikely that I will need those skills in my life -- unless I join a BJJ club.

I've heard a slogan so many times that "90% of all fights go to the ground, and if you count knock outs then it's 100%". Who the hell is actively taking stats on this?! I've been in a real fight in a bar at UConn where chairs were flying around and everyone was pushing and punching or swinging pool sticks or covering up and running for safety. Here's the thing. I didn't go to the ground and neither did a whole lot of people in that fight. (Some did and I helped them get there! But I got hit with a chair that was thrown across the room - so much for my zanshin!) Anyway, that was a real fight which falls into the scope of "all fights" so the stats are certainly less than 100%. And I'd trouble believing this was an isolated incident.

I think the counter point about how it is realistic that someone might decide to try to tackle you is also a valid point. In that case, someone trying to tackle me might get kicked in the face or if they are smart enough to dip a shoulder then they are probably going to get their balance taken with kaiten nage as that is exactly what that technique is for. I think Chiba sensei has the right idea about doing chokes from that technique. If you haven't seen this, please go find someone who has and get them to show you. (I need to review this. Anyone willing to write down something about this in the techniques section?)

I respect ground fighters. The ones I talked to about it explained that the rules for no dirty tricks are because once you have superior position it would be just torturing the other guy to start biting, gouging, and/or tearing flesh. (And some crazy people do allow this kind of thing - I won't train with them!) My problem with this is that because it is a hard and fast rule - people make sloppy entrances to their takedowns because you are not allowed to stick your thumb in their eyes at that point. Obviously, there are ways to avoid such things, but I think it's like taking ukemi. If you don't actively train to not be open you will probably be surprised when someone takes advantage of your opening. (Also, the UFC had a rule that you couldn't kick people on the ground, and so people were just laying there trying to coax their opponent to come wrestle them. That was stupid and I'm glad they took that rule away in the Pride fights.)

Anyway, it is a totally different skill level in aikido to be able to deal with the kamikazi attacker. People willing and able to take a strike to avoid giving up position or balance are extremely dangerous. I think it is completely level inappropriate for the majority of the people practicing aikido. Maybe work on that around 4th dan +, and maybe not so directly. I do feel a 7th dan should be able to do it - but that's because otherwise what the heck does "mastery" mean.

I think the best way to cross train with these guys is that they have to protect themselves from such things (by simply turning their heads a bit, or dipping their shoulders, avoiding putting their ears into positions where you can rip them off on the way down to the ground, etc...). They should work on setting you up to get you to the ground, and the aikido person should work on not falling for being setup to be taken to the ground. I would work with anyone willing to play by those rules.

The other slogan I hear a lot is that "BJJ is aikido on the ground." Not until a master of both says so period. Yes, there are common principles, fine, please leave it at that. (This is the same thing as when the Arnis people take "Arnis is the art within your art" slogan a bit too far.) The points mentioned about learning how to move on the ground to do aiki there is critically important -- no doubt. However, in aikido, I find that how I hold my mind and how I hold my body so that I receive an attack properly (instantly making center to center connection) is not something I've ever experienced rolling around with the best JJers I could find (who completely demolish me on the ground - I might add). I'm not saying that JJ doesn't work! It works well. All I can say is that my experience is that the JJ I've been exposed to is similar to a lower level of aikido that I used to do. Obviously, their might be JJers out there who can make instant center to center connection, but I've not experienced that "next level" ability. Because it is most often a competition or results oriented art, I'm not sure they even want to take things to that level. This is the problem with competition, at a certain level of competence, once you have something working well it's not to common that someone will be willing to give up success for a long period of time to get to that next level -- like we commonly do in aikido. So, anyway, this is way I say it would take a master of both arts to convince me that they are the same.

Rob
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Old 01-05-2005, 09:12 AM   #57
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I've heard a slogan so many times that "90% of all fights go to the ground, and if you count knock outs then it's 100%". Who the hell is actively taking stats on this?!
Heya Rob,

I pretty much agree with you. For most folks (in any reasonably civilized area who are not LEOs, soldiers, or otherwise actively engaged in any daily activity that brings them into contact with violence) doing budo for 'self-defense' on the off chance that they'll be able to Ninja Turtle their assailant is pretty silly.

I'll posit that 90% of self defense is being alert and not being in places where you're likely to be attacked in the first place.

Most trad. budo can and doteach you things about personal combat that will help you defend yourself, but there's very little in most trad. budo curriculae that is actually, directly applicable to CQC.

(I've studied trad. and non-trad. martial arts for 30+ years and have actively served and worked in both police and military situations, by the way.)

As for the 90% thing, it's my understanding that the figure actually came from a study done at a major US university (I think it was UCLA) in the 80s. The study was specifically dealing with police arrest and restraint situations, and the original statement was more like: 75 percent of all apprehensions wherein the perpetrator resists arrest go to ground ...

The conclusion got twisted, applied to non-LEO situations, repeated ad nauseum, until it became part of the martial urban mythology.

Chuck

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Old 01-05-2005, 04:37 PM   #58
Roy Dean
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Aikido on the Ground?

Rob,

Excellent post. I agree with most of your points, and would like to flesh out a few more:

In regards to fights going to the ground... Not all fights go to the ground, and many fights can be ended before ever entering that region. However, if someone is skilled and wants to take an untrained person to the ground, it is usually not difficult to do so. In a 1 on 1 interation, if they want it to go the ground, it does.

Also, if you've ever seen such high brow entertainment such as "Worlds Wildest Streetfights", then you may have observed a pattern when two individuals who are bent on beating each other up go for it. Wild swings, an adrenaline dump, and 2 people falling to the ground during the struggle. The fight goes to the ground without the participants intending it. The same pattern, fight after fight, emerges. A little groundfighting knowledge in such situations could go a long way, for both men and women.

In regards to kaiten nage as a defense for a double leg tackle... well, it's possible, but I've never seen it done, and if it were high percentage, then I'm sure MMA fighters would be adding it to the arsenal. Even the spinning backfist has been successfully implemented by fighters (for KO's!)... but kaiten nage as a replacement for the sprawl is something I do not forsee happening soon. But it could.

Quotes like this strike me as odd:

"people make sloppy entrances to their takedowns because you are not allowed to stick your thumb in their eyes at that point."

and

"avoiding putting their ears into positions where you can rip them off on the way down to the ground,"

Why? Because it all happens very quickly. And, the person attempting to take you down also has "the dirty stuff" at their disposal. They can throw a punch and based on a reaction of flinching from or blocking the strike, drop levels and shoot for a double. It doesn't have to be perfect if your reaction is large enough. Or they can fake a shot and throw an overhand right (this has also proven to have KO potential). Or whatever. It's simply distraction to enable his technique, and once your opponent has control of your center (hips), then trying to gauge his eyes or rip his ears off won't do you much good.

In fact, it's a poor choice, since all your attacker has to do is squint his eyes REALLY HARD and then slam you into a disorienting and inferior position. Then it's on, and your choice in the rules of engagement will have some serious consequences. Defending a takedown is a very dynamic situation, and relying on ripping ears or gauging eyes is not going to get you very far, especially if you haven't practiced ripping ears after a failed takedown defense at least a few hundred times with competent grapplers.

Another one:

"This is the problem with competition, at a certain level of competence, once you have something working well it's not to common that someone will be willing to give up success for a long period of time to get to that next level -- like we commonly do in aikido."

In fact, I believe the opposite it true. Unless you're willing to let one part of your game suffer (i.e. footlocks) so you can focus on another area (i.e. passing the guard), then your jiu-jitsu becomes "small" and stagnant. One trick ponies to not rise through the ranks. Times change and people adapt, your training partners get wise to your moves and develop the counters, your opponents in competition remember past interactions, and if you don't let one area lie fallow so another may develop, then you won't make it to that next belt or skill level.

Are the two arts the same? No, but I find remarkable similarities, and it is possible to feel center to center connection on the ground, if your partner has a "pressure" based game rather than a "movement" oriented game.

"BJJ is aikido on the ground" is a statement that is true enough, IMO. I'm far from a master, but I do have some grounding in both arts, being a shodan in Aikikai Aikido, and brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. They complement each other beautifully, and can enable practitioners to have seamless integration for martial techniques from the vertical plane to the horizontal.


Good training to you,

Roy Dean
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Old 01-05-2005, 05:42 PM   #59
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Is it me, or is there an imbalance in an understanding of how one applies Aikido to serious and determined attack scenarios vis a vis BJJ in this thread? I mean we can see in a lot of ways (there are many examples) how BJJ works effectively in determined attack situations, since a major aspect of its training is for competition and we can review footage of bouts and even actual fights etc.

However I get the feeling that the same level of security and veracity in "what works" from Aikido's training methods a bit lacking in this thread. As I said it could be just me. But since modern Aikido may not have as many "battle stories" to draw reference from, it appears folks are doing a lot of "what if" guessing as far as what in Aikido will actually work in these scenarios, since there is not the same wealth of video information to show how Aikido can be effectively applied in a serious attack encounter (i.e. not the pretty shots of dojo darlings flying throough the air without resisting).

Imho one needs not get a Dan grade to be effective in applying one's Aikido in most scenarios, far less be a master of anything to apply it against a skilled grappler or fighter, one just needs to be a master of one's own game and not fall into that of the other person. All of the situations above where it has been indicated that Aikido may have difficulty is because the engagement has already gone outside the area or interval in the engagement where Aikido is most effective, or one may not be seeing the entirety of the situation and the possible options afforded by effective Aikido training - obviously it won't work if this is the case. This, contrary to the belief of many does not need to take a multitude of years to attain as well from Aikido, unless one expects to apply Aikido against a skilled attack and expect it to look like it does in the pretty cooperative dojo setting. This however is a bit delusional imho.

Aikido works against BJJ very well if you know what you are doing. But if you expect it to look like it would in the dojo, then even if you know what you are doing, your grasp on reality may be a bit lacking.

Just a few cents.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-05-2005 at 05:45 PM.

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Old 01-05-2005, 05:47 PM   #60
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Chuck,

In case this might be of interest…

Unless another study has been done, or unless you are referring to a different study, I think you might be talking about the study done by Mr. Greg Dossey, in 1988 (later updated in 1992). When I ran an advanced Arrest and Control course for Mr. Dossey's ARCON instructors I was privileged by receiving a copy of the study. A university did not do the study. At the time the study was first compiled, Mr. Dossey was a sergeant at the LAPD and he was also the department's Exercise Physiologist. That was in 1988. In 1992, the study was replicated for reasons of comparison and cross-validation by the Training Review Committee of the LAPD. The study dealt with arrest situations that required an officer to address resistant and/or aggressive subjects. The purpose of the study was to determine how to make law enforcement training more efficient by addressing those cases or those types of cases more officers see more often. From that study, an Arrest and Control training program was developed and that program has gone on to influence many agencies across the globe (as you may well know).

As to the 90% quote:

The study determined that the most common type of resistance/aggression that an officer faces in the field during arrests is the suspect pulling his arm away after the officer has made contact with the arm in order to commence cuffing. Four other categories gained large enough a percentage to be noted. As far as going to the ground, the study only says "62% of all altercations involving resistance and/or aggression ended with the officer and the subject on the ground with the officer applying a joint lock and handcuffing the subject." The surrounding context implies that we are dealing with something akin to how Nikyo ends (for non-law enforcement agents) -- not two folks grappling on the ground fighting between the guard and the mount, etc. As far as two folks going to the ground and fighting it out down there, the stat was only 40% of 10.5% (you all can do the math please) -- a very small figure.

Personally, I do not know of another study and I think Mr. Dossey would have handed me any later relevant information if such a study had been done. However, I could be wrong and/or talking about something completely different.

In my opinion, that stat of 90% came from the Gracie's tagline. I do not think it is actually supported by any kind of legitimate study -- not the kind that Mr. Dossey did at least.

Thanks.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 01-05-2005, 10:35 PM   #61
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

For an interesting constrast, take up jujitsu. I think you'll find the similarities and differences quite "interesting". FWIW, jujitsu has given me a better appreciation of aikido and why things are done the way they are in aikido. Conversely, aikido has given me a distinct advantage over jujitsu in more ways than one. Nonetheless, it comes down to what level you're at in your art and what level your attacker is in their art. No way would I take on my jujitsu sensei ;-). But his students....i.e. my jujitsu sempai.... are quite a different matter. :-)

Ignatius
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Old 01-06-2005, 08:36 AM   #62
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

"Brazillian Jujitsu" is founded on the original Kodokan Judo Newaza syllabus. This syllabus was developed to be used in conjunction with the full range of Jujitsu waza (hand /foot strikes, throws, joint locks, strangles) that were amalgamated to form Judo.

Any defense/offense system that specializes begins to omit training in situations that don't fall within the operational range of the specialty. If you want to learn to fight, Uke must attack with skill, using jabs, kicks, slaps and combinations there of. Any defense that presuposes a one event, overextended strike, kick or grab, and doesn't presupose a "plus one" opponent and an edged weapon is incomplete if your goal is to learn to fight a fighter.

The next time you are uke, try poking a finger into Nage's ribs as the technique is being done and you'll see how quickly ki is distrubed and ma is broken.
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Old 01-06-2005, 10:33 AM   #63
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Roy, I think we are actually more on the same page mentally - it looks like I'm just not quite there in my ability to express what I'm thinking - sorry.

If you re-read my last post and consider the two people are 10 feet away, then kaiten nage and dirty tricks on the entrace (the set up) makes sense as a real possibility. If you are reading my last post about this and you have it in your head that the tackler is already 10 inches away then YES you are 100% correct - sprawl like there is no tomorrow.

As I was trying to say, it all depends on how the shoot is set up, and how much experience the defender of that shoot has with dealing with such set ups. I'm not saying that there are no good set-ups, but there are certainly bad ones and experienced defensive movements can make good starts end badly.

I have found that just changing my stance from say right leg forward to stepping out laterrally with my right leg and shifting my hips so that my right leg is now the back leg gives tacklers a problem. I know they can switch to something else - but I didn't say an unsolvable problem. The point is that we can and should experiment with these things - but in a fair way. I serious had someone get their head to my chest - I was still stable and I grabbed his entire ear. We weren't in combat and we like each other but it instantly degenerated into "if you rip my ear off I'm going to really hurt you" which might have happened but I still say people bleeding from the head are too kamakazi-ish for me to deal with appropriately at my level. We both let go, and stayed friends - but I don't want to play with him anymore - which is a shame.
I suppose in sumamry, I feel just as strongly about not allowing dirty tricks once you have superior/dominant position as I feel you should have to defend yourself from dirty tricks (even if you know your training partner won't use them) on your way towards getting superious position.

Some slogans are useful like "position before submission" and "attack the base" they have no negative components - please use them and spead them. However, other slogans like "BJJ is aikido on the ground" and "90% of all fights end up on the ground" are not entirely true, and really serve no purpose other than to get people to train at BJJ schools instead of aikido schools and that doesn't seem fair. We are not saying "Aikido is BJJ standing up" and "90% of all SD situations never go anywhere near the ground" or whatever.

I don't really think there is plot to take potential MA students from one art to another, but it seems like the reason people keep defending their favorite slogans is that they have attachment to them - despite knowing they are not entirely true.

Now, I did really like the movement versus pressure distinction in orientation. I think pressure and movement orientations are a good way to describe the kind of touch necessary to develpe past the typical aikido level of blend just enough to crank the person. (ju tai beginning followed by ko tai middle and ending).

I do agree that you have to change your focus while you progress in any art, but that wasn't what I was talking about as far as giving up what has been working entirely to get a new much more sophistocated approach. It's hard to describe. I know that BJJ players go through some of that initially, but I have not seen anyone continue that kind of development. I hope to meet someone who has - who is willing to show me without just knocking me unconscious out of boredom with my ground skills.

I love MA. I plan to do many more. Wrestling is fun, so is arnis. I love kung fu. I just don't want to hear that any of them are aikido on the ground, or with sticks, or with back spinning jump kicks.

Rob
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Old 01-06-2005, 11:46 AM   #64
jonreading
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

BBJ is a solid martial arts...for its applications. Aikido is a solid martial art...for its applications. There is no comparison because each art is designed for different application.

Who is the ultimate predator? Man? Shark? Lion. What about man without a weapon? What about shark on land? What about a lion in snow? Nature demonstrates that even the best predator is not suited for all conditions.

Don't confuse the purpose of the BBJ with the purpose of aikido. I've seen good and bad of both, both arts have advantages and disadvantages. The outcome of a fight is dependent on many things, most of which have not been discussed here.

Here are some general rules of thumb I live by:
Don't fight a fighter
Don't box a boxer
Don't wrestle a wrestler
It seems stupid, but yet we are talking about wrestling a wrestler. Screw that. If I am confronted by any of the 3 opponents from above, I am going to make damn sure that I use aikido to fight them. If I can't make it work, then I will lose.

Aikido is a martial art that is just as good as any other martial art in the world. If you are involved in a fight and win, great; if not, that person(s) was more prepared for the fight than you. Does it matter what art they trained?

I'm a big Chicago Bears fan (Professional American Football). There's a story/legend of a conversation Mike Ditka had with an unamed sports writer after a game in the 80's. The Bears lost the game on a poor officiating call. The writer asked Ditka how he felt about the call, and Ditka replied that he felt the call was bad. The writer asked if the Bears intended to challenge the call, and Ditka replied "no." The writer then asked why, to which Ditka replied, "We lost. It doesn't matter how we lost - if we wanted to win, we would've beat them so bad a sh**ty call wouldn't have mattered."

Last edited by jonreading : 01-06-2005 at 11:47 AM. Reason: Spellin'
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Old 01-06-2005, 11:47 AM   #65
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
I'm far from a master, but I do have some grounding in both arts, being a shodan in Aikikai Aikido, and brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Congrats on your Brown! When did that happen?


Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-06-2005, 12:43 PM   #66
Roy Dean
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Paul: Thank you! Mr. Harris promoted at the beginning of December, right after my birthday, which was a nice counterbalance to turning the big three oh. Pretty intense exam, as well. Mr. Harris reminded me why they call him "BOA", in way I've never felt before!

I think Larry is spot on with his post: You don't have to be a master or dan grade or at any particular "marker" in your training to achieve functionality. Play your game. Operate in your zone, and don't judge your response if it spills out differently than dojo training. All of these arts specialize in particular ranges, they need not be adversarial, and I feel they should be looked upon as complimentary, possibly even synergistic.

Rob: Indeed, we're on the same page, and it's certainly possible for an experienced grappler (which I consider Aikidoka to be) to stop a shot in the early phases. I can and have been frozen out of shooting in on people, esp. if they have a wrestling background, in a pure grappling match.

Years ago, I was one of the first to say "BJJ is Aikido on the ground," and still believe it to be more true than not. My opinion, and perhaps that's a reflection of my interpretation of the art. Several people have commented that my groundwork is different, more "aiki" for lack of a better term. It's a very personalized art, and individual traits and tendencies are often observably manifested in movement.

My BJJ instructor, Roy Harris, goes out to the East Coast several times a year for seminars. One of his grappling instructors, Chris Drechsler-Martell, is located in Middletown, CT. I don't know if that's in your vicinity, but it would be worth checking out a seminar next time he's over there. I guarantee you'll feel center to center contact, in a very controlled and instructive manner.

Excellent additions to the discussion, everyone.

Best,

Roy
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Old 01-06-2005, 10:47 PM   #67
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I met sifu Chris a few times. We both work out with Don Souci (who has amazing ground skills) at friendship seminars. He actually asked me to teach him aikido when I get into his area. He's a really nice guy.

I do not mean to disrespect you or to beat a dead horse. Please just consider that as a brown belt in BJJ you must have put in a long time of hard work. Imagine if someone in BJJ with 10 fewer years in was talking about what BJJ is standing up and your experience didn't agree with that statement. That's how I feel about someone with a shodan in aikido talking about what aikido is on the ground.

Please visit sifu Chris someday and we'll get together. I'll show you what I mean about aikido at a different level and you can maybe help me with escaping the mount when the guy on top doesn't go for the choke - which I have no idea how to deal with!

I have tried many times to talk about the set up to the shoot and so many people could never get past the initial assumption that the've already slapped my elbows upward and drove their shoulder into my hips and THEN I'm supposed to do aikido while they are slamming my head on the floor - as if I suffer from narcolepsy. So, I find you to be a rare BJJer. I'd love to hear from you what you think the best things are to work on to defend the common shoot set ups.

Rob
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Old 01-06-2005, 11:54 PM   #68
Chris Birke
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Ooh, I'm gonna guess the sprawl! I don't have a brownbelt though, so it probably will be something else.
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Old 01-07-2005, 06:35 AM   #69
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Maybe it's a terminology barrier. Say the BJJ attacker is 10 feet away, and I'm just standing there. I should not just sprawl in hopes that when he sees that he'll think - well I had better not even try to tackle that guy, look how far back his hips are!

I've seen combinations like low kick (to hopefully get karate people raised up a bit on their back leg) followed by face punch (all while charging in - to get their hands up too) and then dip and shoot. That's what I mean by the set up. Should I say "pre-set-up"?

There must be some other common ones, and there must be some common things/movements to the side, stance changes, entering an turning, whatever - that gives those set ups troubles.

Rob
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:20 PM   #70
Roy Dean
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Rob,

You could very well be right. I might not have the experience to adequately compare arts. I feel that I DO have a fair grasp of the techniques of Aikikai Aikido for a few reasons: I've trained under excellent teachers, did my time as an uchideshi, and have a strong aiki-jujutsu background, where I've trained techniques removed from the Aikido syllabus, furthering my perspective on where Aikido came from, what it is, and what it is not.

But then again, I may not have a leg to stand on, considering that it's impossible for me to gauge the depths of my own ignorance! I admit that I've been on the mat only a handful of times since receiving my shodan in 99, as I let that field lie fallow so that I could further my study of BJJ. Skills develop in the areas you train, period. Aikido is not my area of expertise, especially in comparison to someone who's focused their training for 15+ years. I will bow out with that, and would welcome an opportunity for you to share techniques with me.

As for the shoot: All techniques have a beginning, middle and end phase. The middle and end phase for the shoot involve sprawling. Stopping the shot at the beginning stage involves changing levels when your partner changes levels (so he can't get under your hips), and blocking their entry into your space by placing your hand or hands on their shoulder or head and stopping their forward motion. If you can't stop their motion, then with arm(s) still outstreched and connecting with their shoulders or head, shuffle backwards to maintain the same relative distance as they come forward. Maurice Smith did this beautifully with Mark Coleman in an early UFC, and Chuck Liddell is also very crafty in maintaining distance.

Stepping off the line and striking is also a popular tactic. When the shooter strikes, though, it can make things more difficult. The Gracie set-up of exploratory strikes to check distance, then crashing into the clinch is a tried and true method. It can be stopped by sprawling and counterstriking (Mirco Crocop represents this strategy well). As far as pre-setups go, I'm at a loss, other than initiate an attack or movement. Trying to stop a shoot after your opponent has had time to set everything up (distance, rhythm, etc) to his liking puts you at an immediate disadvantage.

Randy Couture will be our guest at the Harris International Instructors Conference later this year. I'll ask him about stopping shots in various phases, and see what he says.

The best way to find the answer is to join a wrestling club or participate with a school team. A high level aikidoist with a wrestler's sprawl and instincts would be quite a formidable opponent. If they can't take you down, then they have to play your game...

Roy

Last edited by Roy Dean : 01-07-2005 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 01-07-2005, 08:56 PM   #71
xuzen
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Hi Rob and Roy....

Mighthy please if you could provide some terminology explaination. Thanks in advance.

What does shoot, sprawl, mount mean?

Boon.

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Old 01-07-2005, 11:08 PM   #72
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
sonny aberin wrote:
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?
Exactly what other people said. Take some BJJ..they'll show you how to escape from the forward mount, mount, rear mount, etc. and reverse locks in your favor. But your best bet is to not get mounted.
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Old 01-07-2005, 11:15 PM   #73
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Hi Rob and Roy....

Mighthy please if you could provide some terminology explaination. Thanks in advance.

What does shoot, sprawl, mount mean?

Boon.
Mount = Mount Position (theres a few, but i'll assume Forward Mount) or :



As for shooting and sprawling, I'll assume, thats the takedown (i.e. sweep, tackle), and srpawling is the scuffling, or..a more broad term...grappling.

Not sure...never heard those terms (shoot, sprawl) related to BJJ before..
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Old 01-08-2005, 11:25 AM   #74
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I'll do my best to field this - but I have no BJJ credentials - so please feel free to jump in and fix anything... (That is a good picture up there of exactly what I meant by "the mount." I didn't know it is specifically called "the forward mount." I think the main point is that the guy sitting on top is not between the legs of the guy in the bottom - where they call that "the guard".)

I agree with Thomas Dixon about the shoot being a term to basically mean tackle. I cannot give you an example of all of them, but here is a really basic one: Stand face to face with your favorite training partner (on a mat) and both of you leave your legs shoulder width apart with neither foot back. Now have your friend extend both arms. You step in, slap his arms up, drive your shoulder into the hips region, wrap your arms around the back of both legs, and you drive your friend up, back and over onto the mat. That's my best explanation of a basic double leg take down (which is a form of "shooting").

Here is my interpretation of what is meant by SPRAWL: The best defence from the point they have gotten their shoulder just about to hit your hips is for you to open your legs up wide and get your hips rotated back (so you kind of end up leaning your upper half forward). That is called sprawling (again a very basic explanation).

Roy, I think you are a very good guy and I hope I get to meet you and work out with you someday soon! I have really enjoyed this discussion.

I'm very interested in working with more sophisticated attacks like combinations and setting up a shoot, so if anyone gets insight, especially from an aikido perspective please feel free to drop me a line!

Rob
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:25 PM   #75
thomas_dixon
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I'll do my best to field this - but I have no BJJ credentials - so please feel free to jump in and fix anything... (That is a good picture up there of exactly what I meant by "the mount." I didn't know it is specifically called "the forward mount." I think the main point is that the guy sitting on top is not between the legs of the guy in the bottom - where they call that "the guard".)

I agree with Thomas Dixon about the shoot being a term to basically mean tackle. I cannot give you an example of all of them, but here is a really basic one: Stand face to face with your favorite training partner (on a mat) and both of you leave your legs shoulder width apart with neither foot back. Now have your friend extend both arms. You step in, slap his arms up, drive your shoulder into the hips region, wrap your arms around the back of both legs, and you drive your friend up, back and over onto the mat. That's my best explanation of a basic double leg take down (which is a form of "shooting").

Here is my interpretation of what is meant by SPRAWL: The best defence from the point they have gotten their shoulder just about to hit your hips is for you to open your legs up wide and get your hips rotated back (so you kind of end up leaning your upper half forward). That is called sprawling (again a very basic explanation).

Roy, I think you are a very good guy and I hope I get to meet you and work out with you someday soon! I have really enjoyed this discussion.

I'm very interested in working with more sophisticated attacks like combinations and setting up a shoot, so if anyone gets insight, especially from an aikido perspective please feel free to drop me a line!

Rob
I listed the foreward mount because theres a rear mount, and rear gaurd as well...plus side mounts, etc. That I know of
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