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Old 05-06-2004, 10:59 AM   #26
willy_lee
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I'm pretty sure Chris was just trying to give basic pointers on the first things to do for a compleat beginner when mounted. Look around at his other posts and I think you'll see he knows a bit more than that about the ground game.

A beginner under mount who did not keep hands in tight and protect collar would get worked even faster, as I'm sure you are aware.

=wl

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Old 05-06-2004, 01:31 PM   #27
jester
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
"if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"
Hi John, from my experience, with most take downs and throws you end up on your side or back. it's not very easy to get to your knees because the thrower follows you down and tries to get a superior position quite fast. Learning how to bridge (judo term) and move on the ground would be well worth the time, but once caught, if your not skilled on the ground, you will probably get hurt choked or locked.


Kevin Leavitt:
Are you stationed in Hohenfels, Germany now?
I used to be in 4-67 armor in Friedberg 3AD.
I've been to Hohenfels a few times. And Grafenwoher a lot.
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Old 05-06-2004, 01:44 PM   #28
Tharis
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Just to make things a little more messy...

As I understand it, jiu-jitsu (among other things, I'm sure) tends to emphasize grappling with a single attacker. Aikido tends (among other things) to emphasize movement among multiple attackers. I think it's reasonably clear that pure aikido training does not prepare one for well for grappling. My question is:

What would the jiu-jitsu response be to three or four attackers?

Just wondering...

Thomas
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Old 05-06-2004, 02:17 PM   #29
Chris Birke
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I was being sarcastic =). Simple question, simple answer!

I've thought up a koan: The Aikido response to a mounted juijitsu expert is the same as the juijitsu response to multiple attackers.
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Old 05-06-2004, 02:29 PM   #30
Chad Sloman
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

which is: DOH!

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 05-06-2004, 02:33 PM   #31
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Having about 5 years of BJJ experience in addition to my Aikido, I found it amazing that when I trained with my sensei his ground defenses from the mount were just like doing upa or elbow escape in BJJ with the difference being that in Aikido we don't try to submit the attacker while on the ground, we are looking to escape and get back up where we are more comfortable, namely on our feet.

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Old 05-06-2004, 05:04 PM   #32
MitchMZ
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Yeah, just like any martial art, a good JJ person will move a lot even when mounted. I find even if I have someone in the gaurd I still like to "move around" their side while keeping some contact and try to apply an arm bar from there. Kinda like a half umpa. Hard to explain, excuse my vagueness. I think it is futile to just stay stationary when you have someone in the gaurd. Although, with powerful legs you can make someone almost pee themselves by applying pressure to the kidneys (almost did that once). Ultimately, movement is essential.
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Old 05-07-2004, 09:05 AM   #33
jester
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Tharis wrote:
As I understand it, jiu-jitsu (among other things, I'm sure) tends to emphasize grappling with a single attacker. Aikido tends (among other things) to emphasize movement among multiple attackers.
There are many different styles of Jujitsu. Brazilian Jujitsu is what exposed grappling to the mainstream through the UFC, but there is a lot more to jujitsu than ground work.

I studied Miyama Ryu Jujitsu, and we had many defenses against multiple attackers. The attackers would wield knives and clubs most of the time. In our school, they didn't emphasize grappling that much at all, and it was said that thats the last place you want to end up. Multiple attacks are common in most martial arts and not special to aikido.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the multiple attacks that I have seen in aikido seem more to be about movement drills and not real attacks per se.
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Old 05-07-2004, 09:27 AM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Hi Tim,

Depends on the dojo. Some focus more on grabbing the Shite/Nage and bringing them to the ground, some focus more on striking attacks, some do a combination.

RT

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Old 05-07-2004, 01:28 PM   #35
Tharis
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
jester wrote:
There are many different styles of Jujitsu. Brazilian Jujitsu is what exposed grappling to the mainstream through the UFC, but there is a lot more to jujitsu than ground work.

I studied Miyama Ryu Jujitsu, and we had many defenses against multiple attackers. The attackers would wield knives and clubs most of the time. In our school, they didn't emphasize grappling that much at all, and it was said that thats the last place you want to end up. Multiple attacks are common in most martial arts and not special to aikido.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the multiple attacks that I have seen in aikido seem more to be about movement drills and not real attacks per se.
Thanks for answering. I should've prefaced my previous statement by saying that I don't know a whole lot about Jujitsu, and that what I think I know comes partly from general reading and partly from observing a local Brazilian Jujitsu club.

In our dojo, randori practice emphasizes movement because the emphasis in aikido is less on taking down the attacker and more on not getting hit. The ukes are still intent on grabbing or hitting nage, and nage still tries to throw them, but we teach that it's important for nage not to waste too much time dealing with one uke when there's another uke coming up from behind.

Also, most of the students in our dojo are relative beginners, so going straight into "real" attacks (with knives and clubs I presume) would be counterproductive: most of them would probably get creamed before they had a chance to learn anything. The lesson has to be geared to the skill level of the student.

If you're questioning the "reality" of the attacks used in Aikido, there are many forums on this site devoted to that topic. It seems to be pretty controversial.

Yours in ukemi,

Thomas
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Old 05-07-2004, 02:33 PM   #36
Alvaro Lobato
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Freaky! Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I practice Aikido, and a little BJJ.

In my experience, there are few options for the full mount, being the use of JJ techniques the most obvious one.

On the other hand I must comment that several fist and finger torsions are not used in general trainning in a BJJ mat. Therfore, depending on how the action evolves, it is possible to think on a nikyo or sankyo or some finger torsion to be used.

The weakest point of grappling fight, of course, is the use of dirty techniques such as biting, eye gouging, and so on.

But let´s not fool ourselves, being on the ground with a ground specialist, such a BJJ figther is a serious problem.
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Old 05-07-2004, 03:41 PM   #37
jester
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Thanks Ron for the info. Our style was a mix of karate, aikido and judo. A lot of hard blocks, then hip throws, elbow locks etc. A friend of mine studies at a jujitsu school that is more like boxing and grappling. It seems like a lot of people think all jujitsu is like this.

Thomas, I see your point, I just wanted to give a little info on the different styles of jujitsu so people don't think it's all grappling.

As far as the weapons go, we trained to defend against them almost from the first day of class. The attacks were simple though, like a strike to the head with a stick, or a knife stab to your stomach. I like the attack training with a stick or knife. You can do simple attacks with white belts to, and progressively work up to faster attacks, then multiple attackers with different weapons.

When I trained at an Aikikai dojo, the instructor would attack us with a jo. We would have to move off the line really fast, or you would get a bruised arm.
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Old 05-30-2004, 01:14 AM   #38
Hara
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Ooo this is an interesting discussion,

Well, I'm not experienced enough to discuss the techniques to apply in this situation but I can say you can use aikido. I think as a beginner we worry about this style, or this type of attack, or this environment, when in fundamentals, its all the same. In other words, its no different if he has a gun, or a knife, you have to use Aikido principles.

Some principles I think would apply: Moving where the attack is ineffective (at the far limit, or at the close limit), leading control (through atemi or what, again I'm no expert), maintain your center, keeping your hands in front of you, and blending.

As a beginner I don't think we'd know the best techniques to use in each situation, but we may do things that will keep us in the fight (or out).
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Old 05-30-2004, 04:41 AM   #39
Keith_k
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

As I read this question, I have to ponder: just how did I wind up in the full mount in the first place? Being mounted is a dangerous position to be in; even experienced grapplers can have a hard time escaping from it. It is douptfull that I am going to lay down and let an enemy crawl on top of me. Despite what some grapplers believe, there is no magic force that automitically throws "real" fights to the ground once physical conflict occurs. Untrained street thugs fall to the groud easily; martial artists with well developed balance and centers are not so easy to be taken down. First I would have to be taken down, which I will not let happen easily. Then, once on the ground, I will have to be mounted, which I will also not allow easily. There is a pretty unlikely sequence of "what if's" that have to happen. There are only so many "what if's" that a person can reasonably train for. What if you get attacked by a thousand ninjas with machine guns?
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Old 05-30-2004, 05:20 AM   #40
Devin McDowell
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
What if you get attacked by a thousand ninjas with machine guns?
Find a religion really quickly?
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Old 05-30-2004, 07:38 AM   #41
paw
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
martial artists with well developed balance and centers are not so easy to be taken down.
Respectfully, the results of mixed martial arts competitions (KOTC, UFC, K-1, Pride, etc...) beg to differ.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-30-2004, 11:04 AM   #42
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

These questions of what if a guy from style "A" encounters an Aikido guy from teacher/style/organization "B"? are really silly.

The martial arts trade journals estimate that only 1% of the population is interested in taking martial arts classes at all. Of that 1% only 10% or less will stay to attain any degree of skill at all. Of that already small number, how many are actual bad guys who, you might encounter in a fight? For law enforcement, only 1% of the folks they arrest resist to the level where it becomes a fight. And they are actively seeking out bad guys, not avoiding them as we are supposed to do.

You are far more likely to have a gun pulled on you by someone you know, at least in the states, or be attacked by a family member using a kitchen knife. Your chance of being accosted on the street or in a bar by your local equivalent of Royce Gracie are infinitesimally small.

From a purely training standpoint, if you look at the BJJ guys, there is a lot of aiki there. They are very relaxed, very efficient. The idea that your Aikido doesn't apply on the ground is not valid. Aikido is not a set of techniques like nikkyo. All of what you know about body mechanics, balance angles, etc still applies you just aren't used to working them without the aid of moving your feet. Power still comes from the hips, they still tip over at all the same angles they did when they were upright, their joints still lock just as they did when you were standing. But now you have other possibilities such as using the legs to run those balance lines or apply a lock... I see no reason that one can't incorporate some ground work into his Aikido and still be using aiki. If you look at the Systema ground fighting work it is very aiki, completely compatible with the principles of Aikido.

The reason that there is no ground fighting in Aikido is that our art derives from the old battle field combat done by samurai who were walking weapons systems. Everything we do pre-supposes that the opponent is armed and that there are more than one of them. If you are out on the battle field you do not want to be on your back applying the perfect elbow lock to your enemy when his buddy decides to stick you with a spear. The mounted position is just an opportunity to be stabbed or cut by another attacker because you can't move from it worth a darn.

Worrying about Aikido vs BJJ is like the knife guys talking incessantly about knife vs knife fighting. In most places in the modern world this is a less likely scenario than winning the lottery. Nobody is going to duel you with knives. If they want to kill you they will ambush you and you will be stabbed before you ever even know it's an edged weapons situation.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 05-30-2004 at 11:07 AM.

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Old 05-30-2004, 02:29 PM   #43
tedehara
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Very well thought out response Ledyard Sensei.


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Old 05-30-2004, 02:33 PM   #44
Richard Cardwell
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Worryingly enough, that isn't the case in areas in my town (not Belfast, incidentally, but nearby). There are knife/knife fights fairly frequently on a Saturday night- I really don't know why. Absence of police, some deeply shady types, and a super-abundance of alcohol, I suppose. However, that's just a bizarre recent trend, and the police will hopefully get a handle on it soon.

However, I have to agree with the above sentence Ledyard sensei- thank you for injecting some realism!
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Old 05-30-2004, 03:34 PM   #45
Aristeia
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
As I read this question, I have to ponder: just how did I wind up in the full mount in the first place? Being mounted is a dangerous position to be in; even experienced grapplers can have a hard time escaping from it. It is douptfull that I am going to lay down and let an enemy crawl on top of me. Despite what some grapplers believe, there is no magic force that automitically throws "real" fights to the ground once physical conflict occurs. Untrained street thugs fall to the groud easily; martial artists with well developed balance and centers are not so easy to be taken down. First I would have to be taken down, which I will not let happen easily. Then, once on the ground, I will have to be mounted, which I will also not allow easily. There is a pretty unlikely sequence of "what if's" that have to happen. There are only so many "what if's" that a person can reasonably train for. What if you get attacked by a thousand ninjas with machine guns?
The only real "what if" is what if you are attacked by someone that knows how to grapple/groundfight. As Paul has said, there is strong evidence to support the thesis that it is hard to maintain distance - it's much easier for a grappler to force us into their range than it is for us to keep them at ours. And it is EXTREMELY difficult to stay on your feet against someone who wants to take you to the ground - even if they're untrained.
I agree with George - there are aiki principals that apply on the ground and there is no reason we shouldn't teach them in aikido class from time to time. Sure it's not what alot of people have signed up for, but if we don't give people at least some idea of the basic mechanics of the ground game, aren't we being remiss as teachers of a martial art?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-30-2004, 05:00 PM   #46
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Quote:
Richard Cardwell wrote:
Worryingly enough, that isn't the case in areas in my town (not Belfast, incidentally, but nearby). There are knife/knife fights fairly frequently on a Saturday night- I really don't know why. Absence of police, some deeply shady types, and a super-abundance of alcohol, I suppose. However, that's just a bizarre recent trend, and the police will hopefully get a handle on it soon.

However, I have to agree with the above sentence Ledyard sensei- thank you for injecting some realism!
It's a bit different in the Britain and Ireland... guns are of course fairly rare, but any altercation whether at a soccer match or at a concert or pub could easily inlvolve an edged weapon. Security people at those venues have to be very careful. There is very much a tradition of almost formalized brawling in the UK and that can include knives.

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Old 05-30-2004, 09:25 PM   #47
Mark Barlow
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I think the problem many folks run into is thinking that techniques are exclusive to a particular style. Over the years, I've tried to internalize principle rather than technique so that I don't have to do a mental inventory of what throw/escape/counter goes where. If I can just remember that A. always goes against B., my options are greatly increased. My focus has been primarily Japanese grappling arts (Jujutsu, Aikido, Judo) but even during 3 years of Muay Thai study, I still tried to use principle to arrive at the right technique. Of course, it doesn't always work but even getting my head handed to me on a platter now and then can be educational.

Mark Barlow
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:50 PM   #48
csinca
 
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I got to this party a bit late but I've been through this line of discussion before:

While hopefully none of us have the Gracies or Machados out looking for us, there are a lot of people that are training in grappling these days. Within 15 miles of my house I know of 5 separate BJJ programs, and that's without looking too hard, there are probably 5 more that I don't know about. Again, most of these guys aren't going to cause trouble... but, I'm training to protect myself and others from the bad guy that is going to cause trouble. And the one that I'm worried about is the guy that knows something about fighting, maybe even grappling.

I'm not saying "all fights go the the ground" or anything like that but I think it is naive to think "I just won't go to the ground", particularly when your defense is based on training in an aikido dojo with guys that don't know takedowns (that's me)! While we want to stay in our preferred range (standing), the other guy apparently has a different preferred range and is trying to take you there. If he can't get you there, you are doing well and you never have to ask how to get out of the mount. Should you find yourself in the mount (or on the ground at all) then the other guy was simply better (or luckier) in determining the range.

If you end up on the ground with a grappler there are loads of options from Aikido, as has been mentioned before. Grabbing and going for an ikkyo, or nikkyo probably won't get you far but rather relax, move around the power, disturb his base, parry/blend/redirect his attacks. Your options depend on what he is doing.

Is he sitting back on your hips? If he is, he's not going to be able to deliver much punching power unless he has very long arms. Is he going for a choke in which case his arms are extended and yours are free (think kote). Can you hook and bridge from here?

Is he up on your chest in position to pound on you? Think more of a sticky hands/trapping strategy. connect to his arms and when he rears back to punch you, let your arm go along for the ride and redirect his strike. Or, since he's now up on your chest, your hips can move, disturb his base with your legs and hips....Can you hook and bridge from here?

Keep in mind that many BJJ tournaments don't allow "small joint manipulation" which are fingers to you and I. There are a lot of grapplers that I've seen that don't protect their fingers as a matter of habit.

Think movement rather than technique.

Chris
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Old 06-19-2004, 02:23 PM   #49
Hermosa
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Lightbulb Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Well as a BJJ'er I certainly have a lot I could add to this but the thread is fairly long here...I just have one thing in response to Chris, and Ledyard Sensei,

Hopefully, (and I know this isn't always the case) a well trained BJJ guy would never attack anyone just like some one in Aikido wouldn't. BJJ is ment to be a defensive art.

What you have to think about is that 97% of Adult males in the US either participated in Football or Wrestling in highschool and possibly on in college, that means one thing--Tackling! Its not really about BJJ vs. Aikido...its about aikido vs. large, angry men diving at your legs!

If you are really wanting to know for sure...find a friend that used to wrestle or play football, go to the mat and see if you can avoid getting taken down..simple.

For any other points I might make..I will simply add this link to a great interview regarding Aikido and BJJ.

www.aiki.com/sneak/yamashita.html

Last edited by Hermosa : 06-19-2004 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 06-19-2004, 10:29 PM   #50
Michael Neal
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I would not worry about running into someone like Royce Gracie in a street fight but, like Matt said above, you could easily end up against a former high school or college wrestler. Having some ground fighting skills in my view is very important. Even somone with no wresling experience who is bigger and stronger will likely squash you on the ground if you are not prepared. And please leave suwariwaza out of this because it is pretty silly to think this would work against even a beginner in any grappling art. Suwariwaza as far I was told was a way to refine your standing technique by emphasizing hip movement, not a realistic form of ground fighting.

Those that say "well just dont let yourself be mounted" or "don't go to the ground" may be issuing good advice but it is only an ideal and not always realistic. If someone with grappling experience gets their hands on you in an attack you have a very high chance of the fight going to the ground. Then what? I guess you are in big trouble.

In a multi attacker scenerio it would surely be pretty stupid to deliberately bring the fight to the ground. But having the skills to escape from pins, get in a superior position, break people's arms, release grips, choke people out etc. is incredibly valuable because these techniques give you a chance to break free and stand up to meet the other attackers. If you did not know any of this you are pretty much going to be pinned and probably kicked until near death.
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