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Old 03-16-2004, 12:39 PM   #1
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Swords banned in Australia

I wonder how this will affect bokken-practice in Australian dojos?


New law to ban swords


Quote:
SWORDS will be outlawed from July under new laws to curb the growing use of the weapons in street brawls.

Police Minister Andre Haermeyer said the ban would help police overcome a culture of young people arming themselves with swords.
"For most people running around the street carrying swords there is absolutely no reason for them to be carrying those weapons," he said yesterday.

From July, anyone found possessing or selling a sword without a permit will face up to six months' jail and fines of up to $12,000.

Existing sword owners must surrender their weapons to police, sell them to a licensed dealer or apply to the Chief Commissioner for specific approval.


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Old 03-16-2004, 03:40 PM   #2
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Swords banned in Australia

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I wonder how this will affect bokken-practice in Australian dojos?



New law to ban swords
Yeah, there have been a few reported incidents of people using "samurai swords" in the last couple of years. For when all your gang mates have machetes & you want to stand out from the crowd...

I wouldn't imagine it would affect bokken, but it would suck to practise Iaido, that's for sure.
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Old 03-16-2004, 05:35 PM   #3
Tom Wolowiec
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Well, iaido swords aren't meant for cutting, right? As long as you don't flash it around, it should be fine I think.

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
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Old 03-17-2004, 03:05 AM   #4
Nick Simpson
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Alternatively, you could apply for the permit?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:03 PM   #5
Niadh
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...and the Austrailian National Sword Association says: "swords don't kill people, people kill people"

Sorry folks, touchy area that.

I guess addressing the underlying problem is too difficult and ineffective, so ban the swords

Non Satis Scire
Niadh Feathers
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:21 AM   #6
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
You will notice the Austrailian government make no exeptions for its subjects that practice Martial Arts..
Doesn't look that way exactly, from the rest of your own post:
Quote:
They say:
<snip>
Collectors and people with legitimate cultural, religious or military reasons to own swords will be exempted from the ban, but must store them under lock and key and have a burglar alarm.
<snip>
Mr Haermeyer said groups such as highland dancers, historic re-enactment groups, bonafide collectors and people with family heirlooms could apply for an exemption from the licensing services branch of Victoria Police.
They don't specifically mention martial arts practice, but they do say groups *such as* yadda yadda. So Aussie iaidoists will have to get a permit and keep their shinto in a gun cabinet. Bit of a faff maybe, but hardly an outright ban.

Sean
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Old 04-29-2004, 03:27 PM   #7
deepsoup
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
People on other boards were telling me that they are not issuing ANY permits to MA instructors.....
That in effect is a ban...
If thats true then you're right, it is.

Actually, looking into it a bit further, it does look like a shockingly ill conceived, reactionary and futile piece of legislation. I was taking Haermeyer at his word when he said the law wouldn't impact on legitimate users, but it seems he lied about that.

And its worse than you thought, where he said:
" The Government is also looking at bans on some other weapons " that includes sai, nunchaku, tonfa - all sorts of martial arts gear that can only be included because Mr Haermeyer has seen too many kung-fu films and thinks they're way more dangerous than they actually are.

And now, I'm so shocked at finding myself agreeing with you on a thread about weapon control legislation, I'm going to have to go and have a lie down.

Sean
x
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Old 04-29-2004, 03:58 PM   #8
Doka
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Re: New Law to ban swords

The general priciple sounds the right line to me. I think all lethal weapons should either be registered or legislated against to prevent those who have no reason to have these weapons from having them! Martial arts is a valid reason to hold these weapons. If the Australian government does not see that then the law is wrong!!!

Mind you, it could be that they are trying to say that a Judoka does not need a katana - an Iaidoka does not need Sai - Karateka do not need Silat knives........

Mind you they could be doing like the UK government did with hand guns - ban them all, even competitive (even Olympic) pistol shooters! They let collector off too!

Hmmmmmm!!!
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:54 PM   #9
Brad Darr
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Re: New Law to ban swords

This may sound cynical but if you ban something because people are killing each other then they will simply find something else to kill each other with. Also banning things outright hurts people with legitimate uses for whatever it is. So if people were using shovels to kill each other following the Aussie government logic they would need to be controlled.

Granted controlling is different than banning outright and I do think that licensing swords would be a good idea. Even if it sounds like something out of the "olden days".

the edges of the sword are life and death
no one knows which is which
-Ikkyu Sojun
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:22 PM   #10
Noel
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Brad Darr wrote:
This may sound cynical but if you ban something because people are killing each other then they will simply find something else to kill each other with.
Well said Brad. Soon as they get the swords off the streets, the pointy sticks will be next. And any Monty Python fan knows what comes next... FRUIT!
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:42 PM   #11
Niadh
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Re: New Law to ban swords

...and the Austrailian National Sword Association says: "swords don't kill people, people kill people"

Sorry folks, touchy area that.

I guess addressing the underlying problem is too difficult and ineffective, so ban the swords.

Hey, I'm a politician, makes perfect sense. Except of course for me and those like me...

Non Satis Scire
Niadh Feathers
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:26 PM   #12
Niadh
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Re: New Law to ban swords

ok, a bit less sarcastically. I stole this from another thread here I just re-read. intersting points.
I think the have relevance
(thank you scott for the post)
Yagyu Munenori wrote this in "The Book of Family Traditions on the Art of War":

"Being "swordless" does not necessarily mean you have to take your opponent's sword. It also does not mean making a show of sword-snatching for your reputation. It is the swordless art of not getting killed when you have no sword. The basic intention is nothing like deliberately setting out to snatch a sword.

It is not a matter of insistently trying to wrest away what is being deliberately kept from your grasp. Not grasping attempts to avoid having it taken away is also "swordlessness." Someone who is intent upon not having his sword taken away forgets what he is opposed to and just tries to avoid having his sword taken away. Therefore he will be unable to kill anyone. Not being killed oneself is considered victory.

The principle is not to make an art of taking people's swords. It is learning to avoid being cut down by others when you have no sword yourself.

Swordlessness is not the art of taking another's sword. It is for the purpose of using all implements freely. When you are unarmed, if you can even take away another's sword and make it your own, then what will not be useful in your hands? Even if you only have a folding fan, you can still prevail over someone with a sword. This is the aim of swordlessness."

Yagyu Munenori's life depended on his sword, yet he understood that an encounter takes place between a person and another person, not a sword and an empty hand.

Non Satis Scire
Niadh Feathers
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Old 04-30-2004, 01:01 AM   #13
aubrey bannah
Dojo: Yoshinkan Brisbane
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Re: New Law to ban swords

I just read the weapons act, restricted or ban weapons
[b]anunchaku or kung-fu sticks or simular device
[g] a chinese thowing iron that is a hard non-flexible plate having 3 or more radiating points or geometic shape & designed to be thrown as a weapon
[h] a flail or similar device constructed & designed as a weapon
[i] a device known as a manrikiguisari or kusari consisting of a length of rope, wire etc fastened at each end to a geometrically shaped weight or handgrip.
There arte also laws conering devices that make a loud noise & studs etc.
Police in my state recently chagred a youth in a rock band because he had studs in his wristband.
Police in my state will charge you with assault if you shine a trouch on there faces.
There have been several cases in the last couple of years of people entering schools & thowing peterol over students a lighting it. As has been proved in different countries when there are no weapons available the scum resurt to putting tyres over people a lighting with fuel.

Such powers I poccess for working in the political field have been derived from the spiritual field. Mahatma Gandhi.
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:09 AM   #14
dan guthrie
Dojo: Aikido of SLO
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Noel wrote:
Well said Brad. Soon as they get the swords off the streets, the pointy sticks will be next. And any Monty Python fan knows what comes next... FRUIT!
". . . you eat the banana, thereby disarming him." You cracked me up.
I hope they get around to banning shiny objects soon, distractions can cause fatal accidents. I'm going to go back to my concrete, pig-iron and lead sheathed bunker and have a nice warm cup of double homogenized soy milk in a cup I recently cleaned with boiling alcohol. I plan on using the fetal position for the next half hour to avoid a cramp.
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:10 AM   #15
Doka
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Noel wrote:
Well said Brad. Soon as they get the swords off the streets, the pointy sticks will be next. And any Monty Python fan knows what comes next... FRUIT!
Fish! Remember the fish dance on the harbour?

As for the serious stuff:

Do you have a valid reason for possessing something dangerous?

Yes - well that's fine.

No - well that's not!

Jamie

The reaction of some is due to other names you can quote. You quote Tony Martin. They can quote Michael Ryan! Some of the lunatics have valid reasons to hold the weapons!

That's why I don't have a problem with control. I do with an out right ban.
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:32 AM   #16
Doka
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
Well what do you consider "control" and what do you consider a "Ban"? TOny martin had a shotgun in his house and he stopped a REPEAT intruder... THe intruder recieved less time than him? This control that would have prevented Tony Martin from defending himself is in essence an outright ban....


Australia has taken the next loigical step in oppression or "control" of the people by taking away swords. Gangs represent less than 1% of the population yet they restrict the freedoms of the other 99%?

Makes no sense to me.
Tony Martin broke the law!!! The intruder got the death penalty!

Control? Do you have a valid reason, etc......

Licencing maybe? I have no problem with getting a licence to hold my weapons.
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:01 AM   #17
Doka
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Re: New Law to ban swords

A quote from the BBC web site:

"The Norfolk farmer's case sparked a national debate after he was jailed for the fatal shooting of a burglar in 1999."

Hell of a wound! Mind you, you are right that the burglar spent less time in jail!
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:48 AM   #18
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
They intruder was wounded.. spent less time in jail for a "hot burgarly" than Ton Martin did for the crime of "self defense"...
There were two intruders. Brendan Fearon, then aged 33, and Fred Barras, a 16 year old boy. Martin shot both, wounding Fearon and killing Barras. "Self defence" didn't stand up in court for Martin, not least because Barras was shot in the back as he was trying to flee.
Thats better, it was a queasy experience for me to agree with you back there, glad things are back to normal.

Sean
x
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Old 05-01-2004, 07:00 AM   #19
Doka
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Political Prisoner? He broke the law!!! He heard them and fired a gun at them, A shot gun that fires a spread! He wasn't trying to scare them, he knew he would probably hit them. He did and it left one dead!

I have sympathy for him being repeatedly burgled, but there were other things he could have done. He could have inproved the security of his house, for example.
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Old 05-01-2004, 08:24 AM   #20
deepsoup
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Re: New Law to ban swords

For the local paper you quote, Tony Martin became something of a cause celebre, their coverage had quite a spin on it.
Whether Barras was 'trying to flee' is a moot point, I suppose, since he's dead nobody can ask him what he was trying to do. That he was shot in the back is beyond dispute though, when you shoot someone at close range with a shotgun its kind of easy to spot where the wound is.
Richard Littlejohn is probably the nearest thing we have over here to a 'shock jock', he writes loathesome rabid right-wing nonsense worthy of an intellectual pigmy. I'm not at all surprised to see you quote him.
Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
So back to the topic?
Good idea. And not having anything further to say on the actual topic, I'm outta here.

Sean
x
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:56 AM   #21
Doka
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
how bout the law locking those idiots up for a significant time....
They did! Tony Martin was inside for a few years!

The "cultural" difference is that mindless killing of people is not in my book! I would do anything to protect my family. Tony Martin was not protecting anyone. I can find no excuse for what he did. He is a criminal and deserved to go to prison. He was very lucky to have his murder conviction reduced to man slaughter. It was murder in my opinion.

Just because someone has entered your home is no reason to shot them! That is rediculous!!!
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Old 05-02-2004, 05:00 AM   #22
tedehara
 
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Re: New Law to ban swords

Ever since the days of the stone hand axe, people have been devising new and interesting ways of killing each other. Now governments are trying to regulate the tools of war. Isn't it a little late?

Here in Chicago, they are trying to get Tech 9s off the street. A Tech 9 is a cute little automatic that is a model of efficiency and engineering. Police are complaining that it has too much firepower. Now ask yourself - "When do you truly have too much firepower?"
sarcastic

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Old 05-02-2004, 10:09 AM   #23
Richard Cardwell
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Re: Swords banned in Australia

In Britain and Northern Ireland, live blades may not be possessed without a specific license obtained from the police. A (non Budo-practicing) brother of a friend brought a live katana of some kind back from Japan, where he had worked. There are various rules- you must notify the police if you intend to buy one, even if you have a license, and inform them of the route you will use to take it home. Senior Iaidoka seem to have little trouble getting them- although it's hard to get them, or iaito, through the internal customs between NI and Britain. The main criterion seems to be the absence of a criminal record. These rules were implemented after a minor media frenzy, as mentally ill people seemed to be obtaining katana and using them on their neighbours, Members of Parliament, etc. An outright ban, IMO, will be ineffective- people who intend to use them to commit murder aren't going to be overly concerned about the weapon they use...
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Old 05-02-2004, 10:20 AM   #24
Lan Powers
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Confused Re: New Law to ban swords

:
Quote:
tedehara wrote:
Ever since the days of the stone hand axe, people have been devising new and interesting ways of killing each other. Now governments are trying to regulate the tools of war. Isn't it a little late?

Here in Chicago, they are trying to get Tech 9s off the street. A Tech 9 is a cute little automatic that is a model of efficiency and engineering. Police are complaining that it has too much firepower. Now ask yourself - "When do you truly have too much firepower?"
:rolleyes: sarcastic
I believe the answer to that is when it is the OTHER GUY who has the firepower...
BTW I have been burgled twice.... I would really consider shooting the bastards if I caught them.(heat of the moment)

Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 05-02-2004, 11:54 AM   #25
cbrf4zr2
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Re: Swords banned in Australia

Australians better be careful, or you will only be allowed to live there if you are a quadruple amputee.

A few years back, they banned guns.
Now they are banning swords.
What next? Hands And Feet?

************************
...then again, that's just me.
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