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Old 04-30-2004, 01:18 AM   #26
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

In a street fight, there is no such thing as cheating. You may have to improvise, though. Your Aikido technique may not look the same as in the dojo, because the attacker is not going to take ukemi or give you what you need. Therefore, you may apply the technique properly, but it probably won't be pretty. Also, the odds are, that you probably won't get to or need to finish a technique. If you apply a good nikkyo, you may not need to do the take down and the pin.

In reference to kicks, they should be worked on more in the dojo. I had the chance to train several times with the Late Toyoda Shihan, and he had excellent kick defense techniques. I've heard that Chiba does also, but I haven't seen him demonstrate them yet.

Aikidoka are not afraid of being hit. But getting off of the line is part of practicle application. Yes, eventually you will get hit, but you can't let that stop you. That's one reason why I hate to see people give "soft" attacks in class. No matter what martial art you study, when you're on the street, anything can happen. But if you have a good foundation in your art, then you can adapt and deal with the situation at hand.

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Old 04-30-2004, 01:28 AM   #27
drDalek
 
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
what a peculiar thing to say... We practice Tai-Sabaki to get ourselves off of the line of attack so we don't get hit. Why is this strange? If someone is stabbing me with a knife, my PRIMARY response should be to irimi or nagashi off the line of attack - and then I can worry about disarming or deflecting or what ever technique I want to use.
I agree with you completely, we tai-sabaki to get off the line so we dont get hit. But what if you do get hit?, how big a percentage of the time does getting off the line actually work for you, especially when practicing against someone from another art who is not afraid to track you with his fist. When you do get hit, do you still try and apply a technique from there, actually, what is your strategy if its not "sorry, can we try again please?"

Quote:
I don't win any bravery awards by taking a few blows/stabs to show how strong I am.
Thats pretty dumb and completely out of context.

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Re: UFC
"They all resort to the standard kick-punch-punch-tackle strategy. Rarely do you ever see the kind of expert take-downs that judoka are capable of in heated competitions."

This is rather ignorant. Although some people in ufc are simply their for their freak value, most of them are very well trained. <snip>
If you think there is no technique, it is because you are blind to it.
I dont argue that they are not very well trained or very dedicated to their profession or very good at fighting in the specific context of the UFC but I was trying to tie in how, no matter what art they claimed to study, in the specific context of the UFC it all looks the same. This is not a bad thing, I am all for doing what works but when you get into a bar-room brawl, will your Aikido look like brawling too? Could you still call it Aikido then?
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Old 04-30-2004, 03:13 AM   #28
Ian Williams
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
drDalek wrote:
I agree with you completely, we tai-sabaki to get off the line so we dont get hit. But what if you do get hit?, how big a percentage of the time does getting off the line actually work for you, especially when practicing against someone from another art who is not afraid to track you with his fist. When you do get hit, do you still try and apply a technique from there, actually, what is your strategy if its not "sorry, can we try again please?"
Well, to be blunt, if I get hit I could be knocked out, killed or just stunned, but in most street fights, it doesn't take too many hits to end a fight.. We train so we don't get hit, and the best way to not get hit is to not be there (either run away or off the line). If that doesn't work then hopefully we get a glancing blow and not a direct one.

I'll agree that the "percussive" arts (lol) better train you to deal with a strike than the "kinetic" arts we practice.

Quote:
I dont argue that they are not very well trained or very dedicated to their profession or very good at fighting in the specific context of the UFC but I was trying to tie in how, no matter what art they claimed to study, in the specific context of the UFC it all looks the same. This is not a bad thing, I am all for doing what works but when you get into a bar-room brawl, will your Aikido look like brawling too? Could you still call it Aikido then?
I doubt it .. MMA looks like it does because it's the most effective means of knocking someone out/forcing a submission within the rules of MMA. There are no groin strikes, eye gouges, throat strikes etc - all valid techniques to use in a street fight. If Aikido or Jujitsu or Yoga or Macrame was better at winning fights in a UFC environment then most people would be doing that.

No argument that the fighting styles within MMA/UFC are very similar, but this is a result of evolution, not a restriction on techniques (other than mentioned above).

Last edited by Ian Williams : 04-30-2004 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 04-30-2004, 09:37 AM   #29
Strepto
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Hi! I'm new here... but I've been reading the forum for more than a year. I thinik i'll jump in on this one.
I trained aikido for a year not for self-defense... just for fun. But then i wondered: Would this actually work in a fight? What exactly is a fight? How fast the attacks are comming? How does it feel to ge hit? Those were all questions i couldn't answer in the dojo. So, with that in mind I signed up for kickboxing classes. After one year of kickboxing I can answer some of my questions. Of course I don't have a lot of aiki under my belt (1 year ) but taking kickboxing lessons change my view on aikido. Before practicing kickboxing i thought that yeah, the aikido i do in the dojo would ressemble the aiki i would use in a fight. But right now i say: Nah, it wouldn't be even close. I now see aikido as a martial art of opportunity (sorry if that does not makke sens... i'm french ). You can't rely only on aikido in a fight. Of course if an opportunity comes where i could throw the guy or apply a lock on him i would but i wouldn't rely on this to stop a fight.

One of my friend studies chi-na and shaolin kungfu. chi-na looks pretty much like aikido. When watching an instructional video on chi-na we both came to the conclusion that chi-na and aikido cannot be used by itself. It must be combined with a striking art to be a lot more effective in a fight. Then again, I might be wrong... ii didn't train in aikido for 10 years. But right now i feel i'm ready to start practicing aikido again (after a 6 month break) but with a completely different approach.

Ok, i have to get back to work.
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:30 AM   #30
dan guthrie
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

I think a distinction should be made between a street/bar fight with an average Joe or Jill and a fight with another martial artist. If you try to judge your art by UFC standards I believe you're falling into the same trap as those who judge their cars by Nascar. The three people I know who've used aikido "in the street" ended the confrontation with sankyo, nikkyo and stand-up grappling. No one got punched or kicked.
"Are you sure you want to continue this?"
On the other hand, I know of one black belt who tackled a guy and only realized ten minutes later that he could have used aikido.
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Old 04-30-2004, 11:31 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

I do think an important distinction is being and should be made here.

1) a highly trained, physically superior athlete will be a handful -- no matter what art you train in.

2) Most situations outside of the sporting environment, while chaotic, do not deal with item 1. And most of the time when they do, all opportunity should (and usually could) be taken to walk away.

Outside of that, I have to agree that the more sophisticated your art, the better off you are with a solid base in something basic (competitive striking, competitive grappling, etc.).

Ron (none of which is to say that aikido doesn't work)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-30-2004, 01:06 PM   #32
paw
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
There are no groin strikes, eye gouges, throat strikes etc - all valid techniques to use in a street fight.
All the techniques named: eye gouges, throat strikes, etc.., may or not be valid according to the law of the land. That is to say, you might "win" the fight, but end up in court and "lose" there. There is a legal component to a fight, as well.

Biting, eye gouging, and groin strikes, while being "fouls" have happened in the UFC. Off the top of my head, they made no difference in the result. The point is, in a world where people have been shot and stabbed, yet still continue to fight, I wouldn't count on any technique being an automatic "fight ender".

Finally, Ron, makes two excellent points.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-01-2004, 07:21 PM   #33
Ian Williams
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
paw wrote:
All the techniques named: eye gouges, throat strikes, etc.., may or not be valid according to the law of the land. That is to say, you might "win" the fight, but end up in court and "lose" there. There is a legal component to a fight, as well.
I'll worry about the legal aspects of the fight after I've taken care of the SURVIVAL aspects of the fight. It's no use wishing you had done that groin strike or eye gouge when you're lying on the ground having your skull smashed

Quote:
The point is, in a world where people have been shot and stabbed, yet still continue to fight, I wouldn't count on any technique being an automatic "fight ender".
Certainly not, but these are still tools in our tool bag arn't they. I don't know about Aikido specifcally, but JuJitsu has lots of groin strikes, throat strikes, eye gouges etc. They're valid "unbalancing" techniques.
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Old 05-03-2004, 09:58 AM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
Biting, eye gouging, and groin strikes, while being "fouls" have happened in the UFC. Off the top of my head, they made no difference in the result.
And there are some more things to remember about these kinds of tactics...

1) I remember a fight in jr. high where I was basically wrestling against someone trying to 'gauge' my eyes out. He clearly had no clue of how to really do it...he was just giving me a deep massage with his knuckles. Didn't really hurt, and I proceeded to use the rough tarmac to abraid the skin off of his back. People generally don't really train to actually do these things...they pantomime it a lot...but they don't really know what the heck it feels like to actually take a finger and stick it through the eye socket with real penetration. I would think you'd have to 'really' mean it...try it sometime...I think you'll see what I mean.

2) Who is going to be in a position to do these things effectively? Its kind of like pressure point fighting in a fist fight...first you have to not get hit yourself, then you have to be in a position to hit the other person, then you have to exert enough fighting pressure to be able to hit particular places in particular sequences...

Generally, the person in a controlling position is the one who gets to use the dirty tactics.

Thanks for the kind words Paul. You're making some good points as well...People may well want to use 'dirty tricks' while in a situation...but the courts may well decide that if it was a situation you could have avoided, the 'dirty tricks' just add some sauce to the pan in which you'll be cooked.

Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-03-2004 at 10:01 AM.

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Old 05-03-2004, 03:58 PM   #35
Chris Birke
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

People do train dirty tricks; I know some JKD schools do. We practiced eye jabs on hanging tennisballs (as a distraction tactic), eye gouges (for during thai clench), bites in grappling (side headlock defense), and groin grabbing (guillitone defense) - True, I've never gouged anything besides an orange, but I still think the other ones are trained decently. I mean, you grab the crotch as hard as you can and yank, and if you can, try to grab one of the... Not so complex maybe? But, Ron is precisely right in that they come only in the right situation and AFTER learning good control.

Personally, I would never want to use them (besides the eye jab, which is more meant to get a reaction than harm) because they elevate the situation too much (not to mention land you in jail). Still, training them is good, because knowing them is the first step to avoiding them.

Just don't fall into the trap where you assume, that should your aikido fail, you will suddenly have a instictive pool of perfect dirty technique to draw from. That pool is very shallow.
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Old 05-04-2004, 07:13 AM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Good points Chris!
RT

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Old 05-04-2004, 05:05 PM   #37
Ian Williams
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Why is it a pool to use IF your aikido fails? Why not use Atemi against vulnerable spots like the groin or the throat? Is Atemi only valid if it's against parts of the body that will not be hurt by it? What is the point?

I'm talking about using techniques such as throat strikes, groin strikes etc as unbalancing/distraction whilst performing techniques - such as headlock or strange escapes. Like I said before, if someone has me in a headlock, I'll do what it takes to get out of it before I pass out - to hell with the consequences.
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Old 05-04-2004, 07:01 PM   #38
Chris Birke
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Well, often fights are more over territory than life and death. Someone wants to kick your ass, yes, but they also just want to see you turn tail and run.

If you are in a situation like that, and you grab someones groin, etc, the fight might not necessiarly be instantly over. It might not work, or they may have friends. Now you face two consequences; one, whoever you were fighting will now be trying every dirty trick in the book with intent to see you maimed (not simply chased off), and his/her friends feel the same way.

So, like any tactic, it must be used with careful consideration. Not simply by rote.
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:48 PM   #39
Largo
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

cheating can only occur if you are playing a game where there are rules. If it is a fight, there are no rules, so you can't really cheat.
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Old 05-06-2004, 02:03 AM   #40
Chris Birke
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

"Why is it a pool to use IF your aikido fails? Why not use Atemi against vulnerable spots like the groin or the throat? Is Atemi only valid if it's against parts of the body that will not be hurt by it? What is the point?"

Atemi isn't designed to maim. The tactics that I think fall under cheap are meant to cause severe and lasting damage, infertility, blindness, wounds. Atemi is just meant to disrupt their world for a little bit.

Poking someone near or in the eye probably won't hurt them too bad, it will give me just enough time to make the next move. Gouging someone in the eye with intent, however, will be with them for the rest of their life. So there's a bit of a moral element involved, and that's what people want to avoid going wrong of in their Aikido. Can I defend myself without going straight to the most serious consequences is the question. And then, should one hesitate?
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Old 05-06-2004, 03:45 AM   #41
tiyler_durden
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Hi,

I know I don't post much here but I am here most days reading what you have to say.
This thread has got me hooked though.

I trained Aikido in Belfast.
I lived in Belfast and worked in Security in a huge shopping mall in the centre of town and let me tell you I got into a few "Fights".

I must say though my technique was not usually sloppy and the locks and throws always worked.

I have yet to come across someone who knows another style of fighting when getting into a fight!
This you would be able to see in their movement and also stance!

I know this may sound a little ignorant but it is true form MHO!

I have had two and sometime three people coming at me and have come out on top!
I mean don't get me wrong I have been hit,many times and I have tried a few other styles which include Karate,Win chun,kick boxing etc...yet I find Aikido most effective in a "Fight".

The movements are smooth and all techniques can be used in a small area,unlike some styles!

The locks and throws I find are second to none!

Most fights start with pushing and shoveing clashing of heads and then the punch comes,which you allways see as it is the "Saturday night special" which comes from behind the shoulder and with full force!

this can be caught and used,where applicable!

I hope this was ok and understandable!

Also just my 2 cents

Tiyler-durden

"Deal with the faults as gently a your own"
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Old 05-08-2004, 09:17 AM   #42
Alvaro Lobato
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

After one year of kickboxing I can answer some of my questions. Of course I don't have a lot of aiki under my belt (1 year ) but taking kickboxing lessons change my view on aikido. Before practicing kickboxing i thought that yeah, the aikido i do in the dojo would ressemble the aiki i would use in a fight. But right now i say: Nah, it wouldn't be even close. I now see aikido as a martial art of opportunity (sorry if that does not makke sens... i'm french ). You can't rely only on aikido in a fight.

i didn't train in aikido for 10 years. But right now i feel i'm ready to start practicing aikido again (after a 6 month break) but with a completely different approach.
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Old 05-08-2004, 09:30 AM   #43
Alvaro Lobato
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

I have been practicing Aikido for 10 years !

The answer is cross-trainning or a great dojo where you may have more open-minded instructors willing to experiment a bit more "real-fight" situations.

Of course this have a very down side which is the possibility of increasing the risk while trainning.

This a ever-coming subject in this and other forums - Is Aikido worth in the streets ?

I keep spreading my Aikido word whenever I can:

1. A real fight depend on so many considerations such as level of the attackers, type of place, physical abilities of the parties, desire to get involved in such situations, etc.
2. Dirty techniques such as eye gouging, biting and hair pulling are almost necessary.
3. Basic knowledge of grappling and punching/kicking are a plus.

Therefore all I say is that for me, leading my present lifestyle, at my age, I feel Aikido is the best solution.

Nevertheless I also practice, whenever I can, BJJ and Kick-Boxing.
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Old 05-08-2004, 09:41 AM   #44
Alvaro Lobato
Location: Salvador - BA
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
tiyler_durden wrote:
Hi,

I know I don't post much here but I am here most days reading what you have to say.
This thread has got me hooked though.

I trained Aikido in Belfast.
I lived in Belfast and worked in Security in a huge shopping mall in the centre of town and let me tell you I got into a few "Fights".

I must say though my technique was not usually sloppy and the locks and throws always worked.

I have yet to come across someone who knows another style of fighting when getting into a fight!
This you would be able to see in their movement and also stance!

I know this may sound a little ignorant but it is true form MHO!

I have had two and sometime three people coming at me and have come out on top!
I mean don't get me wrong I have been hit,many times and I have tried a few other styles which include Karate,Win chun,kick boxing etc...yet I find Aikido most effective in a "Fight".

The movements are smooth and all techniques can be used in a small area,unlike some styles!

The locks and throws I find are second to none!

Most fights start with pushing and shoveing clashing of heads and then the punch comes,which you allways see as it is the "Saturday night special" which comes from behind the shoulder and with full force!

this can be caught and used,where applicable!

I hope this was ok and understandable!

Also just my 2 cents

Tiyler-durden
Thanks for the example Tyler.

I feel the same. Most (and I mean almost all of them) of real situation fights are very poor technically probably because most of people do not practice any MA and/or because adrenalyne and lack of self-control do not allow to use the famous Samurai spirit.

I would also like to complimment all the participants for the excelent level of the discussions in this forum.

Tyler, what is MHO ?
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Old 05-08-2004, 10:53 AM   #45
Keith Morgan
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

"Cheating", "real fight", "Aikido." These are just labels,generally thrown around by adults,whose last confrontation was in the school playground perhaps many years ago,and the fear has not left them! Self-defence,whatever that may mean,is a state of mind,not technique.What is a real fight then,that makes it different from an unreal fight? What on earth is cheating? Despite the romanticism of Samurai Spirit,they were professional warriors,and killed.The concept of fair play just did not exist.One thing should be made clear to students who enroll in dojo.The martial arts in general were not designed for self-defence,they were battlefield methods for killing and maiming,period.Many of the Budo arts are simply sports,practised with an understanding of accepted rules to test your skills in a predetermined condition.i.e. Judo players grapple,Karate players punch and kick. Despite my meagre 36 years of training in Aiki Ju Jutsu,I will still avoid a confrontation at all costs.A fight over a spilled pint or any other excuse for a ruck is just not worth it.
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Old 05-08-2004, 11:23 AM   #46
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
drDalek wrote:
Surely you can say that in a real fight, a life or death struggle, you must do everything you can to survive but does that include discarding the moral principles of Aikido when it suits us?
Where in anything the Founder wrote about Aikido does it say that you are discarding moral principles if you survive a an attack in a deadly force situation?

This is a very simplistic sense of what Aikido morality is about. O-sensei said that we should act from a spirit of loving protection for all things. That means that we are expected to act as "care takers" so to speak. Well, that care taking extends to ourselves and all those around us. It means that we must strive for the greatest good, not some rigid and unrealistic sense of what is moral.

If I die in an attack because I failed to protect myself adequately, what was protected? Did I protect the life of the attacker over my own? Where is the larger benefit in that? The person who was willing to kill you is still alive, quite capable of killing another innocent person, and you are dead, quite incapable of protecting anyone. I don't believe that O-Sensei would have viewed this as anything but a failure of your training. You have a duty to use your training to protect society and you have failed if you die.

I run into this all the time when I do women's self defense training. We talk about jamming ones fingers in to the attacker's eyes and some woman will say, "Oh, I couldn't do that." I point out that this person is going to rape her and possibly kill her.. but no, she still can't see herself doing that. So I ask her to visualize an attacker that is going after one of her children and wham! you've got a tigress ready to do what it takes. How did her upbringing so pervert her sense of self worth that she wouldn't do for herself what she would do for another?

Aikido is all about the nature of the universe and natural energy. Well, nature isn't the benign force that a lot of well meaning but naive people make it out to be. In each instant the universe is a process of creation and destruction. Things are coming into being and they are passing out of existence (at least in the form in which they previously existed). O-Sensei's genius was to bring balance to Budo. No longer was Budo focused on the destruction of others but rather on bringing oneself into accord with the will of the Kami. But if you read what O-sensei says about the violent person who is not in sync with the will of the Kami, he doesn't say that that person walks away just fine because we were able to use techniques to restrain him. He pretty clearly states that to be out of sync with the natural harmony of the universe leads to destruction.

In Aikido there is a natural "conservation of the quality of energy". Whatever the intent of the attacker, that tends to be what he gets back. This is why O-Sensei said that there should be no more challenge matches. It wasn't possible to do them without serious injury because the aggressor got back the kind of energy he put in. O-Sensei seriously injured a number of people in these matches... that's why he stopped.

In Aikido we find a certain type of person who thinks that conflict resolution is this nice Terry Dobson-like story in which if people were just nice to each other things would be great. People completely misunderstand why that subway story was so impressive. It's not because the old man was loving to the drunk and therefore the drunk responded by dropping his violent demeanor. It's because there was absolutely no guarantee that he would have done so that the old man's behavior was so amazing. He placed himself at risk. That drunk could just as easily punched him out. That was very brave. But it was a response that fit the situation.

There are predatory psychopathic people out there who are completely unaffected by that type of benevolence. If one of those people came after you, conflict resolution would be killing him. Messing about thinking that there was some "moralistic" low level force technique like nikkyo which would allow you to restrain this would be murderer is simply stupid and would only get you killed.

What about your wife, kids, family and friends? What about all the good you could have done in your life had you lived? How did this misguided understanding of the Spirit of Loving Protection protect anyone but the one person least deserving of that protection, the would be murderer? As the one with training (less than 1% of the population has studied any martial arts) you owe it to society to prevail over this threat to the general welfare. As far as I am concerned failure to do so would be immoral not removing him as a threat to the innocent folks around me.

One of my friends and a former student is a cop. He was presented with a man armed with a knife who was coming towards him. He acted according to the guidelines of his profession, stayed completely cool but was forced to draw the line on the floor at which he was going to shoot this guy if he didn't drop the knife and submit. Just as he shifted his "intention" and was getting ready to shoot, the subject sensed this shift and stopped, dropped the knife, and submitted. Happy ending right? My friend acted impeccably. The poor mentally ill guy lived and was placed in the mental health system where he received the help he needed to become a productive member of society, right? Well. no. As it turned out a number of months later, this fellow was the neo-nazi who went into the Jewish community center in LA and shot those children. I hope you can see how complicated these moral issues get. It's not this sweetness and light BS that so many folks put out.

As my teacher Saotome Sensei has pointed out, "Sometimes conflict resolution means that attacker is dead. Then there's no conflict." Does that mean that it isn't great that Aikido has all sorts of techniques which can allow you to use appropriate force when dealing with violent situations? No. There are all sorts of times when that type of response is wonderful. Not all violence is clear in its intent or is very threatening due to the complete lack of ability on the part of the aggressor. But as Funaksohi said, "If it's not important enough for one or the other of you to die for, you shouldn't be fighting." Aikido folks like to think that they can fight because they have these cool techniques which aren't going to seriously harm an attacker. If the low level force control techniques that we use to practice, work for you in a violent situation, that's great but I would say that you weren't in a REAL fight where the intention was to kill you and the attacker knew something about what he was doing.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 05-08-2004 at 11:27 AM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-08-2004, 12:14 PM   #47
Richard Cardwell
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Tiyler Durden, which dojo did you train in in Belfast? It's good to know that there are people on this forum apart from Ian Dodkins and I who train(ed) in this corner of the world!
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Old 05-08-2004, 01:52 PM   #48
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

The only morality I know of in fighting is do use the least force necessary to resolve the fight.

Other than that, how you live your life and the actions you take up until the point you engage in the battle is the only other thing that matters. Why you decided to fight is what matters. After that, you only have to worry about using the least force necessary to protect that what you deem worth protecting.

So if it is truly a life or death struggle, it is neither moral or immoral to use whatever force you have at your disposal to resolve the situation to your benefit. it is what it is, nothing more nothing less....a fight. It is the actions that led to the fight that determine if it is just or not.
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Old 05-08-2004, 09:29 PM   #49
shihonage
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
post
This was a great post, perhaps it should be put as a separate article on Aikiweb.

Last edited by shihonage : 05-08-2004 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 05-09-2004, 06:59 AM   #50
drDalek
 
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Re: "Cheating" to survive a real fight

Quote:
shihonage wrote:
This was a great post, perhaps it should be put as a separate article on Aikiweb.
I agree, utterly, thanks for shedding light on this issue for me. I have had a glimmer of this for a while now, but it has never been put to me in such a clear and definate way.

As for the issue about "cheating" I meant it more along the line of someone who does Aikido for ten years, then gets into a real fight (as opposed to a fight that ends when someone get shoved or someone turns away) and resorts to doing something vaguely reminiscent of bad judo and kickboxing. In a sense cheating on your own training by not using it at all. I realise now that this question has already been answered a few times for me. Every time someone says "dont play the attacker's game, make him play yours"
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